Staircase help. Any Cad guys out there?

[shmo]

I am getting ready to add a staircase to the second level of my garage. However, I think I painted myself into a corner slightly. I used attic trusses, and decided upon them at the last minute. Bottom line is, I didn't fully plan it out, and I am having a rough time packaging them into my space.

Here is my problem. I have 11 feet of total rise to the 2nd floor level of my attic trusses. The problem is that I cannot get them to project into the room in a usable location. I realize I will need to use an L-shaped stair or a Return U-shaped stair. But, given the direction of the trusses I cannot make much ascent (roughly 43 inches) before the landing due to headroom clearance with the remaining trusses.Then, the next ascent leaves the stairs projecting out way on the other side of the room. I have tried doing the math on a reasonable rise/run, but now realize I will need to fudge the code a little to make it all work. I am wondering if anyone would be able to draft me up something rough enough to gauge by. I would hate to make the stairs steeper than need be. I also would hate to make them "just" shy of working.

This is my best attempt at drafting, probably won't make it as an architect...haha
The Garage is 24' wide x 25' deep. It has 10' foot ceilings and 132.5 inches of total rise to the finished floor of the of the attic trusses. From the back wall to the opening of the man door it is 63 inches. The gray section represents the bonus room which is 12' x 25' centered in the trusses. The blue section is where I would like the stairs to reside. Any help or input would be greatly appreciated.

Maybe a little more helpful. I would like the stairs to go into the far left hand corner, and they need to land upstairs roughly where the top of the 10" step ladder is sitting.

SHMO

 

[Torque1st]

Look up alternating tread stairs like these:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/03/alternating-tread-stairs.php

 

[1320stang]

Do you have another man door behind the water heater and HVAC? Does it have a landing or steps? (In other words, could it be used?) Are your trusses 24" on center? Is the space just for storage?

I don't have a code book in front of me, but 8" rise I think is the max and 11" min tread depth, so 33" run rises 24". The platform needs to be the width of the stair, you might be able to get 30" wide, but let's go with 36" to see where that gets us.

First take the 132.5" and divide it by 8, you get 16 7/16 steps, so take 132.5" divided by 17 steps and you get 7.794". Round up to 7 13/16" and you'll have 16 steps that height and one that is 7 1/2" and the odd step should be at one end or the other. I think due to the landing, the lower steps can be a little different from the top, so you could do three 8" to the landing, then fourteen 7 3/4" up thru the ceiling. Two steps and the landing get you to a 24" elevation and 54" from the back wall (96" fron the ceiling). Then 14 times 11 is 154" plus the 36" landing is 190" from that corner which is almost 16' which would only be 24" from the wall of the bonus room, which isn't enough.

If the other door has a elevation change from the house to the garage of 16", then take that 16" from the 132.5" which leaves 116.5" which is 15 steps of 7.75". Again 2 steps and a landing gets you to 39.25" above the garage floor and a 93.25 head height (under your 43" max), then 12 steps up makes it 168" from the wall which is 14' and the top is 4' off the wall of the bonus room.

 

[Kevin54]

One of the members on here built a set of stairs that was like the pic posted by torque. The alternating tread style. I just can remember who it was.

SHMO....can you take a pic from the R.H. side of the garage showing the man door and give the distance from the water heater to the wall and the height up to the door sill?

Also do you have to have it inspected after it is built. The reason I ask is that you talked about fudging it a little. If not having to have it inspected, then you may be able to fudge just a little more than a "little" and still get a safe set of stairs out of it.

 

[1320stang]

1991 BOCA is the newest reference I have, which dictates 9" tread depth and 8 1/4" max rise, but online I found reference to the 2006 IRC which says 10" min. treads and 7 3/4" max rise.

Again, I think it's going to depend on if this is a room or storage, if it's storage, they're a lot more leinient I believe if you're having to meet code.

 

[GeorgiaHybrid]

Can you get by using a ships ladder? It does meet code as long as you do not exceed 30 degrees from the vertical. It will not be easy getting something up there but will allow access to the area that meets code.

If you need the ability to place large objects up in the attic area, consider a floor hoist system for them.

 

[Richard Givan]

I imagine the I'm the guy who had the alternating stairs in his garage, for the same reason of a short space in which to fit them. Here are a few pictures:





I like using them very much and feel safe on them, but when other people attempt them they sometimes seem uneasy. You just need to start off on the right foot, so to speak. Also, they are very steep, so you really need a good rail on at least one side.

But it's a much better system than a ship's ladder, in my opinion. You have to move your feet in and out to clear the adjacent rungs that it's inconvenient at best and a hazard at worst. This arrangement allows you to walk up just like a normally spaced stairway, just steeper.

When I built this house, the county did not even have a building code that covered stuff like this, so I can't speak to whether your local government would approve. I do recommend checking it out, of course.

My ceiling height in the garage is 104" and the run is 80," so this arrangement really does make for a compact staircase.

I read somewhere that Thomas Jefferson introduced the idea to this country, but that Monk's had pioneered it to access tight attic lofts centuries before.

Here's a link on stairs that may help you:
http://www.countryplans.com/3dha/Levels/Stairs/Stairs.htm

 

[jamesemery728]

Circular stairs??another option. Just be aware that anything other than "normal" spacing is something that you will get used to using, but everytime someone other than you are using it, they may become a safety hazard. Also may be a factor when you sell the house if the stairs are not considered "normal".

 

[Kevin54]

I imagine the I'm the guy who had the alternating stairs in his garage, for the same reason of a short space in which to fit them. Here are a few pictures:

That is the one I was thinking of

 

[shmo]

First off guys, let me say thank you for all your input. It gets really tough bouncing ideas off of the wife while trying to make informed decisions. usually all I get is that blank stare

The clincher here is that I "plan" to use this space for more than storage. I am hoping to turn it into a playroom/theater room. So, kids will be up and down it a LOT. With that being said, It really doesn't need to be inspected. The house has had it's final inspection, and I am doing this unbeknownst to the City. I am not sure what problems that may or may not cause down the road, but I will deal with that when the time comes. Right now I need stairs. Therefore I think I can fudge the rise and run as much as needed, as long as the stairs turn out working and feeling somewhat normal and comfortable. I do not want to end up with something that is at all dangerous or awkward. After thinking about it I have come to the conclusion that standard stairs with a landing, either U-shaped or L-shaped, will be my best bet. Winders, Spiral or alternating tread stairs would just be asking for blood to be spilled on my new concrete...haha. The big problem is, I am not experienced enough to know what "too much" or "too little" is in relation to rise and run.

Here are a couple pics that show the story a little better. Sorry about the first ones being so vague, they were all I had on hand at the moment. Thanks again guys!

SHMO

 

[ghnl]

The most important thing for stair safety is to have all the risers of equal height. If one is off even by 1/4" you'll trip on it everytime - even if you know it's there.

How about an elevator?

 

[shmo]

I'm very aware of how important it is for stairs to be uniform. I tripped on stairs in my parents 100 year old house for years!

Elevator...hmmmmm....now you're talking. Do you think I could build one for under a few hundred bucks? There has to be DIY kit somewhere...haha

 

[rgates]

The big problem is, I am not experienced enough to know what "too much" or "too little" is in relation to rise and run.

Here are a couple pics that show the story a little better. Sorry about the first ones being so vague, they were all I had on hand at the moment. Thanks again guys!

SHMO

[

SHMO, A good rule of thumb I have used for ever is the rise + run should be between 17 & 18" not including the nosing. This will give you a comfortable set of stairs. Building code trumps all of the old standards.I would not be afraid of using winders. Your situation is ideal for winders and done correctly they are fine.

 

[ddawg16]

I feel your pain....the top of my garage is a second story for storage, play area and art studio for my wife.....

We solved the problem with a spiral staircase.....the kids don't go racing up and down it....takes up very little space....4'8" x 4'8".

We got it from the Iron Shop....do a search...they have a good web page.

 

[shmo]

ddawg16,
how do you get larger items up and down. I am thinking about things like couches or chairs. I like the looks of your spiral staircase, but I am not sure if that will ultimately work in my situation. From the placement of yours I am guessing you either have a shallower pitched roof than mine, or the trusses are running lengthwise with your garage? Do you have any more pictures showing the landing upstairs and the opening in the ceiling/floor?

rgates,
Winders I have always had issues with. You basically gain one step, and slightly shorten the run. That part is great, and I know it would go a long way towards packaging them into my garage. But, they are kind of dangerous due to the irregular shaped treads. How do you avoid having sliver shaped steps on the inside circumference where a misplaced foot is guaranteed to cause a fall?

I follow what you mean by rise/run equaling 17" to 18". What I don't know is how far can you askew those numbers? I mean I know 12" of rise and 5" inches of run won't work. 1320stang stated earlier that
1991 BOCA dictated 9" tread depth and 8 1/4" max rise, but that has since changed. Is that to say that I shouldn't use a combination that steep? Would that be completely fine, and I could even go steeper? This is what I do not know.

SHMO

 

[rsanter]

if you want to do an elevator, look for one for wheelchair/handicapped.
they are very expensive new but cheap as dirt used.
often when someone has one in their house it was an afterthought (the need for it came up after the purchase of the house) an d so when the house is sold they are the firsy thing to go

bob

 

[ddawg16]

shmo....I have a 4'x6' section of floor that I can lift up for the larger items....you can see it as the unpainted part of the ceiling...

My roof pitch is 3:12....on one side I have 3'6" of wall height...the other side, 4'6" of wall.....in the center I have 6'1" of clearence under the center ridge beam....hear are a couple of pics of what it looks like up there....

And a view of the staircase from the upper floor....

 

[Fleetwiz]

http://www.cadtutor.net/forum

 

[ghnl]

The March 2009 issue of Fine Homebuilding has an article about winders. Current code appears to call for more than simple pie slice wedges for stair winders.

 

[rgates]

ddawg16,


rgates,
Winders I have always had issues with. You basically gain one step, and slightly shorten the run. That part is great, and I know it would go a long way towards packaging them into my garage. But, they are kind of dangerous due to the irregular shaped treads. How do you avoid having sliver shaped steps on the inside circumference where a misplaced foot is guaranteed to cause a fall?

I follow what you mean by rise/run equaling 17" to 18". What I don't know is how far can you askew those numbers? I mean I know 12" of rise and 5" inches of run won't work. 1320stang stated earlier that
1991 BOCA dictated 9" tread depth and 8 1/4" max rise, but that has since changed. Is that to say that I shouldn't use a combination that steep? Would that be completely fine, and I could even go steeper? This is what I do not know.

SHMO

The design of the winder is key. There are guidelines for the design. The dimension of the landing will ultimately determine the winder dimensions.

Today's code is nothing over 7.75" or under 4" of rise. The concept is to make the stairs less steep, it is less tiresome on the body. If you have ever tripped up or down a set of stairs it is because they were not made in accordance with the rules of thumb and ultimately the code. To put it simply, your body is tuned in (do to repetitiveness) to a certain stair dimension, when the dimension differs you trip up or down the stairs. Once again it is about the ratio of the rise to the run (the angle) of the stairs. A steep set of stairs will give you far more safety issues than a winder stair that is designed correctly. I have built many,many sets of stairs this is not my first rodeo! I would exhaust all other options before using the steep stairs unless it was a very little used set of stairs.

 

[rgates]

The March 2009 issue of Fine Home Building has an article about winders. Current code appears to call for more than simple pie slice wedges for stair winders.

Current code is as follows:
Winder tread must have a depth of 11" measured at a right angle to the treads leading edge at a point 12" from the side where the treads are narrower and a minimum tread depth of 10"

 

[ddawg16]

I would check out The Iron Shop. Tons of info including dim and designs....

I used CAD to explore all the options....I have many of the constraints you do....I tried all options...L shaped, steep, C shaped...straight, reverse straight....etc. Besides the fact that they eat up a lot of top and bottom floor space, we could never find a spot that would allow you to walk up without ducking and still be able to get both cars into the garage....

I would like to point out that this is just a garage....in my case I don't have to have them to code (5' width)...because it's not a living space...the stairs are for access only.

I have 3 little ones....3, 5 & 7.....we have yet to have a tumble....and my kids have a LOT of energy....because of the shape, they automatically slow down...plus there is a lot to grab if need be.

I have around 24" of width....it allows me to carry the typical plastic tub up and down without issue....

BTW...if you check out the Iron Shop web site....you will find stairs that are code.

Debate tread rise and tread depth all you want......I have the stairs....I walked up traditional stairs.....my wife and I are very happy we went this direction.....it was the right decision for the garage.....it is after all, just a garage.....

 

[shmo]

Guys,

I really appreciate the input. Thanks for all of the insightful information.

rgates,
I will have to look harder into the winders. I was envisioning the old ones in vintage homes. Gaining a step in the landing area would go a long ways to help out my situation. How much extra landing space is required given the new code? I am having a tough time picturing this----

Winder tread must have a depth of 11" measured at a right angle to the treads leading edge at a point 12" from the side where the treads are narrower and a minimum tread depth of 10"

Steeper than code stairs "I think" will be a necessary evil however. Can you suggest the steepest rise/run that you would be comfortable with using frequently?



ddawg16,
I checked out the Iron shops website, and you are right. It is pretty informative. Plus, they have several variations on Spirals. I emailed them asking for suggestions on which style they offer that would work best for me. I know you had some obstacles to overcome. I have some of the same problems. I don't want to give up a big chunk of my garage for stairs. However, our attic spaces are a little different. I have 4' 8" knee walls on both sides, with a pitch of 10/12. This gives me the standard 8 foot ceiling in the middle of the room with steeply pitched sides. Headroom is no concern. It has ingress/egress windows. It's 300 square feet of completely livable space. Plus, it already has 2 of its own electrical circuits and HVAC. I plan on finishing this room off as an extension of my home, not just a garage attic. This is the only reason I am being so critical about the stair access. I realize I should have planned for this since the beginning, but I didn't. So now I am really trying to make the best out of a bad situation. Your garage is awesome! I almost wish I didn't have "so much" room up there. I would have your entire setup in a second.

 

[Jiffycake]

Can you use a spiral staircase? I have seen them constructed out of iron to fit in a small area

 

[Kevin54]

Can you use a spiral staircase? I have seen them constructed out of iron to fit in a small area

Little late there Jiffy

 

[shmo]

Ok,

so I know this all seems redundant to you guys, but you have no idea how much help you have all been. Bouncing ideas and input around tends to get my brain in gear. Last night I hardly slept a wink, but I think I have my idea (for today anyway..haha)

I plan to go with the return (U-shaped) staircase. I will do all of my framing from underneath so that there will be no separation between the stair runs. I will make the upper run of stairs slightly wider than the lower, and place my handrail on the treads. This will keep this style of stair as compact as humanly possible, giving me roughly 32inch wide stairs for both. I will make the handrail removable, more on that later. To gain some elevation, I looked and looked online at winder stairs and curved stairs. I was way off on my thinking of winder stairs, and found some ideas that would work awesome. However, they would take up more room than the pie shaped winder I was envisioning and be WAY harder to construct. Then I found where I can simply add another rise by splitting the landing on a U-shaped stair....duh!

So here's the idea. 32 inch wide stairs with 7 7/8 inches of rise and 9 inches of run. By adding the additional rise in the landing I will project into my upper room in a great location and still have roughly 6 or 7 feet of space before running into the knee wall. It should work well.

This pic shows the plan from the ground floor (not to scale by any means) The blue lines represent the removable handrails

 

[shmo]

To gain some more elbow room while moving large items up and down the stairs I have an idea. The removable handrails will do a bunch to open up the space. I will also open up the stairwell itself, making a 4 foot wide opening with an open landing at the top of the stairs. A few stud walls placed upstairs to section off the landing area and the open stairwell, with a door to keep the elements out, should tie it all together. I apologize for my simple floor plans. Microsoft paint is my closest CAD program....haha

This pic shows the plan from the upper room.

 

[Major Ramifications]

I used to work for the company that invented alternating tread stairs, Lapeyre Stair. J.M. Lapeyre came up with the idea when he climbed a set of regular stairs after walking through some chalk. They take a little getting used to, but I used to zip up and down them all the time. A good bunch of people.
http://www.lapeyrestair.com/

 

[1320stang]

You said you have trusses, are you confusing them with joists? What are their spacing and what direction do they run?

 

[KMR Construction]

if you have 2 steps up to a landing in the corner with a winder. where the winder comes to a point needs to be a min of 6". From there your a straight shot to the 2nd floor

17 risers @7 13/16"
16 treads @11"

 

[shmo]

1320stang,
I have attic trusses, not joists. They run from side to side when facing the garage. When I built, I knew I would have to put stairs in eventually. I planned ahead for that part by stacking the first two attic trusses together, 48" away from the gable end truss. I knew I could frame IN anywhere that's needed, but taking OUT trusses (or cutting them) is not as easy. This is a horrible pic, but you can sorta see them here.

KMR,
I thought about doing it like that, but with 2 steps up, 1 winder and a landing, it ends up projecting over somewhere around 15 1/2' to 16'. That will put my upper step about 2' away from the knee wall on the other side of the room. In other words, once you climbed the stairs there would be a wall right at the top blocking your access into the room, Won't work. And. I am not able to add more steps before the landing because that will cause headroom issues with the ceiling of the garage. Typical rise/run stairs ratios are just not going to work in this situation. I see little to no way around using roughly 8 inches of rise and 9 inches of run.

You can see what happens where the stairs project into the upper room.

 

[1320stang]

I wouldn't go U shaped, you can put a diagonal step in the corner to gain another step up plus you gain the extra floor space.

I drew the risers at 7 13/16" and the steps at 9".

Here's a bigger picture:

http://www.supermotors.net/registry/media/754750_1

 

[dipper]

1320stang: that's a nice drawing solution. to me that seems a little better than the U shaped.

 

[shmo]

1320stang,

Thank you very much!

Would you be able to figure out how much additional room it would take to make that landing (diagonal step) to code? I am not so much worried about the code itself, but the safety of it does concern me. If I can make that design fit, it would be a lot nicer saving space some space.

Thanks again,

 

[shmo]

Never mind,

I ran the math....thanks

 

[bdurrant]

Hey SHMO!

First, check local codes because they all differ. I work with International Residential Code, 2006 here in Texas. From my point of view, you need to be careful where you place your stairs because you need 6'-8" of clear headroom (measured from the nosing straight up) as you walk up the stair. The trusses, or cross supports may obstruct that.

Secondly, to meet code, stair width can not be less than 36" and you need a handrail no less than 32" tall. Use your minimum tread depth allowed, 10". And use a large rise of 7-3/4" (max. allowed by code). There's a lot to consider here because your attic trusses create a habitable space. (not storage)

If you need help....I'm more than happy to walk you through it.

Later!
Bob

 

[ridemc64]

Just throwing in my two cents here,looks like your on the right track.

Remember to factor in your finish floor thickness (2nd floor) before your finally calculate your total rise,this is a common mistake when calculating rise and can lead to that dreaded top step"tripper". Also if your building your own stairs remember to factor (minus) tread thickness into your first rise stringer cut.
A story pole would also help eliminate unforscene mistakes.
Typically you may end up with up to 3/8" +/- in your rise calculation
(Max allowed by code) if your measuring to 1/16".This should be added or subtracted from the first (bottom) rise. This is standard practice.

Cad drawings are great as long as your field measurements are accurate.
It all boils down to you and your tape measure anyway.
Good luck!

 

[shmo]

Ok,

so I knuckled up and got busy during my lunch hours this week. I got a good start on the staircase. I decide to go with the L-shaped stair with a single winder. Thanks guys for all the input. It made my decision making a lot easier. On to some pics.


Day 1

I ripped into the existing ceiling and uncovered the trusses. Believe it or not, when I got off work and went home, the wife had cleaned up all of the drywall and framing mess. Didn't happen again during the rest of the project, but it was a nice surprise....haha

 

[shmo]

Day 2

I started to frame out the landing. Luckily the electrical outlet was high enough to remain. I will tuck it into the baseboard during the finish work.

 

[shmo]

Day 3

This was this the big day. I sheeted the landing, and started to frame out the winder. I also framed out the lower run of stair stringers, rough cut some treads and cut the first stringer to length for the upper run of stairs. Admittedly, I was late for work after my lunch break...haha

Tonight

I finished up the upper stringers. I framed and placed the header in its final location. I also cut some more treads and started tying everything together for the last time. I still need to cut one more stringer for the middle, but it was too late after work to get to the lumber yard for material. I am hoping that tomorrow I can finish the stringers, trim all the treads to final width and install the risers. I also need to install some joists and cover the old hole where the attic access was located, plus install some 1/2 round on the winder steps. I am looking forward to finishing it off with the final trim work. Not really sure how I am going to do it, but I hope to do something other than just drywall.