TwoInch
Well-known member
Frank Mossberg Ford Model T socket sets came with 17/32s, 23/32, and 29/32s pressed sockets.(and other oddballs)
http://home.comcast.net/~alloy-artifacts/frank-mossberg-company.html#sockets
Standard vs Metric. Do we need both?
- Thread starter Souljer
- Start date
Frank Mossberg Ford Model T socket sets came with 17/32s, 23/32, and 29/32s pressed sockets.(and other oddballs)
http://home.comcast.net/~alloy-artifacts/frank-mossberg-company.html#sockets
[QUOTE= .............I don't think 23/32 was ever offered by anyone.
I recently came across a complete 1920s Bethlehem Spark Plug Company set of sockets. It's a hex drive set of regular depth sockets with a ratchet, a few extensions, a T handle, and a universal joint. Included in the set are several sockets that are sized on 32nd inch intervals to include 9, 11, 15, 17, 19, 21, 23, 25, 27 and 29. The set appears to be well used, and unfortunately contains a couple sockets that cracked and were repaired at some point. The cracked sockets are the 23/32" and the 21/32". So, not only was there a 23/32" size, but it appears that it was used enough to eventually crack it. Now I can't say that I've ever seen a 23/32" wrench, but I do have a few larger sized 32nd inch interval wrenches that include 11, 13, 17, 19 and 25.
Jim C.
I recently came across a complete 1920s Bethlehem Spark Plug Company set of sockets. It's a hex drive set of regular depth sockets with a ratchet, a few extensions, a T handle, and a universal joint. Included in the set are several sockets that are sized on 32nd inch intervals to include 9, 11, 15, 17, 19, 21, 23, 25, 27 and 29. The set appears to be well used, and unfortunately contains a couple sockets that cracked and were repaired at some point. The cracked sockets are the 23/32" and the 21/32". So, not only was there a 23/32" size, but it appears that it was used enough to eventually crack it. Now I can't say that I've ever seen a 23/32" wrench, but I do have a few larger sized 32nd inch interval wrenches that include 11, 13, 17, 19 and 25.
Jim C.
bob15
Well-known member
My uncle gave me a Metrinch set about 15 years ago, and actually found bolts I used it on and it worked. I had an '82 GMC pickup that i was trying to remove the rusted exhaust manifold bolts from. The SAE would round it off and the metric would fit very well. It dawned on me that I had the set and figured "what the hell, give it a try". Believe it or not, they worked. I got full contact and was able to break the bolts free.
That being said, I kept them in the truck as an emergency tool kit and have used them a couple more times. But, if you go in either tool box at home or work, I will have SAE and metric. If you try to interchange them, eventually the bolts for nuts will round off and make it a real PIA to fix.
So to the original poster's question, yes, we need both metric & SAE.
bob
That being said, I kept them in the truck as an emergency tool kit and have used them a couple more times. But, if you go in either tool box at home or work, I will have SAE and metric. If you try to interchange them, eventually the bolts for nuts will round off and make it a real PIA to fix.
So to the original poster's question, yes, we need both metric & SAE.
bob
metrinch tools are 12 point sockets, or actually double hex sockets with one hex being one size in metric, and one hex being standard. with out close inspection they appear to be just 12pts, but they arent.
after looking, it appears they now use a lobed style, which is another design that fits a standard and metric. the picture above is apparently the original design i was familiar with.
the chart a couple posts above is not a chart for any other brand, and the sizes are not interchangeable as the chart shows.
Ah, that explains it. Thanks.
I think I'll pass on ever owning Metrinch sockets. I don't know about the rest of you, but I rarely look at the size marking on a socket. I grab by sight (and I rarely miss, except on sizes I don't use very often). If I used a Metrinch and set it on the wrong set of hexes (or the wrong 6 of the 12), I'd think I grabbed the wrong socket
and reach for another, and it would get annoying really fast. 
For the 23/32, obviously I should have just said I'd never seen one.
And at the small end, 5/32, 7/32, 9/32, and especially 11/32 are still commonly seen in some applications.
Cumminst100
Well-known member
JMartel
Well-known member
The only thing I have that uses SAE is my old Craftsman tools. My '00 Chevy S-10, my '06 Triumph motorcycle and my wife's '04 Jeep Liberty are all metric. I can't remember the last time I picked up a SAE wrench.
Frankly, I can't stand the SAE system. I'd prefer it if the US converted fully to metric. So much easier to work with.
Frankly, I can't stand the SAE system. I'd prefer it if the US converted fully to metric. So much easier to work with.
SMKS
Well-known member
I almost never use SAE. But I do have SAE wrenches. My set is pieced together swap meet wrenches.
I definitely wouldn't spend big money on an SAE set.
I definitely wouldn't spend big money on an SAE set.
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My grandfather was a Master Mechanic at Goodyear Aerospace and he had complete sets of S.A.E. wrenches and sockets with 1/32 (0.03125 inch) increments and 1/64 (0.015625 inch) increments. He always told me: "Metric tools? I don't need no stinkin' metric tools!" (1 mm is about 0.03937 inch increment).
supersteve
Well-known member
Unfortunately, I don't have any pictures of his tools. He died when I was 12 and my grandmother sold his tools to a co-worker without asking me if I wanted anything. However, I remember going over his tools with him and looking at sockets and wrenches with 1/64th-inch increments. My first tools were metric and he gave me a good natured hard time about them.
1/32-inch increment was common in tools produced in the U.S. from the turn of the century into WWII and some sockets were also produced in 1/64-inch increments (for example, 11/64, 13/64, 15/64 etc). Manufacturing was not as precise then and bolt head dimensions could vary by 1/64th-inch. Industry used more bolt sizes than common today and our military also used off sizes in some applications to make it more difficult for an enemy to disassemble or repair captured equipment.
1/32-inch increment was common in tools produced in the U.S. from the turn of the century into WWII and some sockets were also produced in 1/64-inch increments (for example, 11/64, 13/64, 15/64 etc). Manufacturing was not as precise then and bolt head dimensions could vary by 1/64th-inch. Industry used more bolt sizes than common today and our military also used off sizes in some applications to make it more difficult for an enemy to disassemble or repair captured equipment.
shoturtle
Well-known member
Fedwrench
ALLIANCE MEMBER
It all depends on what you work on. I think there's no reason not to have a set of sockets and wrenches running 3/8 to 7/8 but, that's just me. I know I don't work on anything ancient so, I had no need for sockets in the **/32 range.
Link-Belt
Well-known member
If you want a reason to get a new, bigger, nicer box then you need both.
sent from my Go F@!k Yourself using tapatalk 2
sent from my Go F@!k Yourself using tapatalk 2
The point was, not that times change, but that older mechanics had more complete and closer size increments in their S.A.E. tools than is common today. They didn't need to buy metric tools because their S.A.E. tools already covered metric sizes fairly accurately (closer increment spacing than metric). That is not the case today.
shoturtle
Well-known member
But like you said, that was the past. I do not think they even make 1/64 increment tools anymore. Need 64 sockets to cover all sizes up to 1 inch is allot, and I do not think they make that many variety of fastener. Even if you combine SAE and Metric, you have maybe 35 total sizes now.
Don't forget to blame the "ARAB"ic numbering system too.
shoturtle
Well-known member
well the SAE system is just as bad, look what the US did to all the indian nations in north america. Intentionally infected them with small pox. It goes on and on.
You got to be kidding me, the rest of the world used the metric system, because it is a base 10 system. The US currency is a base 10 system. It is simpler.
Again: The point was older mechanics had more complete and closer size increments in their S.A.E. tools than is common today. They didn't need to buy metric tools because their S.A.E. tools already covered metric sizes fairly accurately (closer increment spacing than metric). That is not the case today.
Owning 64 or 128 sockets was nothing to a career mechanic from that era. I have over 200 S.A.E. sockets in 1/4 and 3/8-inch drive just in 12-point, 6-point, standard, deep and shallow sockets. And, many people on this forum have CONSIDERABLY more sockets than that.
And yes, they still male tools in 1/64th increments.
supersteve
Well-known member
The population of this board is just squirrelly enough that I don't know if he was joking or not.......
shoturtle
Well-known member
I have over 200 sockets myself, but that is with std, deep, 6pt, 12pt, spline, 1/2. 3/8 and 1/4.
I understand what you are saying, that they got close enough to make them work.
But when you do the math. The kits covering 1/4, 3/8, 1/2 and having to good deep, standard and 12/pt and 6pt and spline would be a huge investment on a tooling prospective.
I also understand the need to 1/64th back in the days. Standards were not really sheared throughout manufacturing. And to cover what you may run into, you needed that many sizes.
I understand what you are saying, that they got close enough to make them work.
But when you do the math. The kits covering 1/4, 3/8, 1/2 and having to good deep, standard and 12/pt and 6pt and spline would be a huge investment on a tooling prospective.
I also understand the need to 1/64th back in the days. Standards were not really sheared throughout manufacturing. And to cover what you may run into, you needed that many sizes.
shoturtle
Well-known member
The population of this board is just squirrelly enough that I don't know if he was joking or not.......
I figure, figure it was not serious. But he wrote it with such details and furrier. And sometime the buy US and all else is **** mentally on GJ make you think twice sometimes.
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supersteve
Well-known member
We're all just a tiny bit squirrelly here, myself more than most.
O.T. That reminds me, I haven't seen a good Woody/"Eddie Lampert" post lately.
Coach James
Well-known member
Mods please delete this if it is not appropriate. The US did not intentionally infect indians with smallpox. That is a myth, that has become accepted as fact. According to historians, during the siege of Ft Pitt in 1763, the indians were given two blankets that had been exposed to small pox, but the disease was already in the area, most likely from indians returning from attacking white settlements. The intent of using small pox to reduce the indian garrison is based solely on two letters written by British officers, but the disease was already prevelant in the area by this time.
The second incident was in the summer of 1837 when several crewman on the steamer St Peter contracted the disease. By the time the boat reached Ft Union, near the North Dakota-Montana border, several were dead. In an attempt to stop the spread, whites and indians around the fort were given innoculations using some of the diseased fluid from one of the crewmen. The attempt failed and the innoculated indians and some whites began to die.
More bands of indians came to the fort to trade, despite the army telling people to stay away, even going so far as to send couriers to other forts telling of the outbreak. The warnings were ignored and as a result, the disease spread becoming an epidemic that lasted until the winter of 1837.
Coach
If you want a reason to get a new, bigger, nicer box then you need both.
sent from my Go F@!k Yourself using tapatalk 2
Hi,
I just got a newer, bigger, nicer box and I've put my few mechanic tools and a lot of my other tools and supplies in there. I had so much all over the place, misplaced and half lost. I love the box and having a single location; knowing where things are for a change. As I said earlier, I already have a basic set of standard that I needed to work on the '69 Triumph TR6.
Sure, I don't mind getting another set of tools to cover metric, but I'm not going to buy a bunch of tools to just sit in the box. Right now I only have my 2002 Ford Explorer Sport - and I don't know if that needs metric or not as I've never done any work on it. In the future I was thinking of getting an International Scout II and probably a motorcycle. So depending on how that works out, I'll probably end up needing metric for something.
I see we have the same mobile service or at least they are close cousins.
OK, but this is not a thread about owning too many sockets or which measuring system is best.
The question was:
Standard vs Metric. Do we need both?
The answer was:
Older mechanics (pre-WWII) with complete tool sets didn't need both because they had closer S.A.E. increments than metric (0.03125 and 0.015625 versus 0.03937).
1/25.4 versus 1/32 and 1/64
BDT/NWMN
Well-known member
A roll-a-way for each.
That is actually what I did.
easier to move than a bigger box, however 
raddksn
Well-known member
British Standard Whitworth
and before someone asks:
British Association
I have most of the common Standard and Metric in 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2 drives. I work on a little of everything.
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GOLF for LIFE
Well-known member
We need to convert to all metric. Including all measurements as that is what the rest of the world uses. But this is the USA.
Muffler clamps and brake hydraulics are two areas where I can think of needing SAE pretty much everywhere. The line nuts on my saturn are 10mm x 1.0 thread but have 3/8" hexes.
Also a lot of battery connections are SAE. You never know if you'll run into a univeral hold-down or whatever.
The building trades are 99% SAE if you ever want to drive a lag bolt into your deck or whatever.
And besides, you should have extra tools if a hottie ever needs help out of the blue.
Just pick some up on clearance; now after Fathers' Day and post Xmas are two great times.
Also a lot of battery connections are SAE. You never know if you'll run into a univeral hold-down or whatever.
The building trades are 99% SAE if you ever want to drive a lag bolt into your deck or whatever.
And besides, you should have extra tools if a hottie ever needs help out of the blue.
Just pick some up on clearance; now after Fathers' Day and post Xmas are two great times.Hoyer Motorsports
Active member
This is the dumbest thread I've ever read on any forum.
I don't mean to be hateful either, because it's almost funny.
I don't even want to answer the question because it's so rediculous.
I don't mean to be hateful either, because it's almost funny.
I don't even want to answer the question because it's so rediculous.
Hoyer Motorsports
Active member
Maybe the original poster should stick with using pliers, adjustables, and pipe wrenches. Haha!
No true mechanic would ask that. I have a left handed hammer and a 12 point adjustable wrench I'll sell you. Only two tools you'll ever need!
wantedabiggergarage
Member Emeritus
You need both, however, your more apt to find bargains on some good old USA stuff, in which case, buying sets that have both, go to the shop box. Good old stuff can go home for the around the house SAE stuff.
Hoyer Motorsports
Active member
I just can't help it. I can't wrap my head around the question. It's like asking:
Light and dark, day and night, do we really need both? Can't we just pick one and be happy?
I've been to Europe, and talked with millwrights at several Mercedees plants and they all have SAE tools as well as their native Metrics.
The only difference between them and us is that they order half liters of beer, instead of pints.
Since I'm on the subject: it's againt the law in the European Union to sell beer in a glass without its correct name on the glass.
Grolsch beer: Grolsch glass
Becks beer: Becks glass
In a word: Awesome
When I think of this post, I can't help but think of a few sizes we really don't need to replicate, but we do anyway. Most sizes are worth having the correct wrench but it's hard to make a case for distinct 5/16" (7.9375mm) vs 8mm, or 3/4" (19.05mm) vs 19mm when these differences are less than .0025". For reference that is roughly half the thickness of a human hair.
shoturtle
Well-known member
Can anyone actually see the difference in sae vs metric fasteners? I use all metric on the cars I work in today, I'm at an independent auto repair shop. Usually I'm never sure if I'm on an American car if it's supposed to be sae or not. I have all metric and if it fits it fits. Just today actually I needed a 1/2in socket that nothing metric would fit on. But really that's one of a handful of times that's happened. Can anyone actually see a fastener and know if it's sae or not? Or if you have an American car you just grab sae?
Genuine question.
Genuine question.