Standby Generator - best brand?

[Fasthotrod]

Speaking with technical the best I could get was that the alternator does not like to sit in the same spot for extended periods -- spinning it a few times keeps it clean.

Typically, it's to prevent flat spots on the bearings and help keep moisture from condensing inside the windings.

Why does an engine need to run every week ?

A couple of reasons... one is to maintain a thin layer of oil on the engine components. When an engine sits, it's subject to ambient heating/cooling effects and when those temps drop down low enough, water will condense from the air and cling to the metal surfaces. You see this on your car in the morning, and sometimes on your cold beer can on a humid day.

...which leads to another reason to run the engine. That water mixes with the oil in the crankcase, and develops an acid that can eat at the metal in the engine. Running the engine up to temps that can burn off the moisture in the engine helps eliminate this. This is one reason why larger industrial engines have oil pan heaters and immersion heaters, to keep the engine above the dew point so moisture doesn't condense in the engine.

Hope this helps.

Mark

 

[yeldogt]

Typically, it's to prevent flat spots on the bearings and help keep moisture from condensing inside the windings.



A couple of reasons... one is to maintain a thin layer of oil on the engine components. When an engine sits, it's subject to ambient heating/cooling effects and when those temps drop down low enough, water will condense from the air and cling to the metal surfaces. You see this on your car in the morning, and sometimes on your cold beer can on a humid day.

...which leads to another reason to run the engine. That water mixes with the oil in the crankcase, and develops an acid that can eat at the metal in the engine. Running the engine up to temps that can burn off the moisture in the engine helps eliminate this. This is one reason why larger industrial engines have oil pan heaters and immersion heaters, to keep the engine above the dew point so moisture doesn't condense in the engine.

Hope this helps.

Mark

get all of that .. but, they are glorified tractor engines in the air cooled products -- don't know the HP of mine ... it looks like a twin. They say it's an in-house Cummins engine. If my cars can sit all winter .. I'm not sure why a generator needs to start every week. Spinning the starter motor sounds like a good idea

 

[Bretny]

get all of that .. but, they are glorified tractor engines in the air cooled products -- don't know the HP of mine ... it looks like a twin. They say it's an in-house Cummins engine. If my cars can sit all winter .. I'm not sure why a generator needs to start every week. Spinning the starter motor sounds like a good idea

They do that weekly so the people who buy them feel warm and fuzzy inside when it does its weekly start/run cycle.

 

[LMS]

I bought a 7kw generac several years ago. It crapped out after about 6 years - would have cost more to fix it than replace it. I needed it probably about 5 times during that period, and all but one time it failed me. The most egregious failure was sending 140 volts rather than 120. Luckily I heard my fridge complaining about that and shut the stupid thing off.

Sure, it was a lower end unit, but either make things with quality or don't make them, especially something used for emergencies.

Never again with Generac.

 

[log man]

I went a different route, bought a PTO generator 15kw and then bought a second tractor to run it. It all manual to set it up and hook into the transfer switch but I use the second tractor quite a bit more than I thought and the setup works for me....

 

[ihateminimumwage]

I have narrowed it down to a Generac 22kw model 7043 or a Briggs 20kw fortress. Warranties are comparable and looks like a tossup.

The Briggs 20kW units are really good. I've serviced more than I can count, while I've repaired more Generacs than I can count. The Evolution controllers in the Generacs are the weak point, they're getting better with Firmware updates, but you need a service tech for each update (and they won't make a trip just for that, it's not covered by Generac).

Either way find a good electrician and get a load calc so you know what you need. Briggs has the best load shed system on the market with their Symphony system, hands down, and that can cut out some kW or give you room to add on.

 

[Stuart in MN]

I'm not sure why a generator needs to start every week.

Because no one wants to be out in a hurricane or blizzard, trying to rebuild the gummed up carburetor on their generator because it hasn't run in months.

 

[yeldogt]

Because no one wants to be out in a hurricane or blizzard, trying to rebuild the gummed up carburetor on their generator because it hasn't run in months.

They are propane or NG .. ??

 

[Stuart in MN]

They are propane or NG .. ??

The point I was trying to make is any engine should be run regularly if you want to be sure it's going to start when you need it.

 

[Falcon67]

The point I was trying to make is any engine should be run regularly if you want to be sure it's going to start when you need it.

Most big ones around here do an automated fire up and check out monthly. Quarterly typically a full transfer from line to generator making sure it picks up the load.

 

[Worsedog]

Our generators run weekly for 30 minutes with load transfer. Of course they power the jail, SO, and our comm tower sites.

 

[miltstrk]

Looking at 20 kW Briggs vs 70432 22 kW Generac for whole house, permanently installed, back-up power.
I have a friend who had a professionally installed 22kW Generac. The company who installed it last spring for ~$18k; told him to turn it off before he evacuated for Florence (he was not going to be in the house) since it would need to be shut down every 24 hours or it could burn up.
I called Generac yesterday to see what is the best option to install once we get home.
-They had not heard of such a thing and said that the only time it should quit is when it ran out of LP. Has anyone else heard of this recommended practice with Generac units?
I called a local LP Gas company that installs Briggs units, asked about install, running vs shutdown before leaving. The guy almost laughed and we discussed the logic of a backup generator if you shut it down before you leave. LP Gas guy said this was NOT a recommended practice with B&S units.
The LP guy said the B&S will be very good at load managing especially since we do not have electric hot water heaters.
I have also seen where the load shedding capability of B&S units have been very good from other sites and posts.
I have seen that the B&S units do not have an alternator to charge the battery. My Honda powered Craftsman tractor does not appear to have one either, but amp gauge says otherwise as it seems to have a 12v level after it goes back to zero amps.
- Anyone else hear of this being truth or fiction?
LP gas guy also was optimistic about oil use of the unit when I asked him as was the Generac company rep.
-Anyone have input on oil use from either brand?
LP gas guy gave initial quote of ~5k for generator, pad, correct size LP tank and gas connection

 

[mm08822]

Looking at 20 kW Briggs vs 70432 22 kW Generac for whole house, permanently installed, back-up power.
I have a friend who had a professionally installed 22kW Generac. The company who installed it last spring for ~$18k; told him to turn it off before he evacuated for Florence (he was not going to be in the house) since it would need to be shut down every 24 hours or it could burn up.
I called Generac yesterday to see what is the best option to install once we get home.
-They had not heard of such a thing and said that the only time it should quit is when it ran out of LP. Has anyone else heard of this recommended practice with Generac units?
I called a local LP Gas company that installs Briggs units, asked about install, running vs shutdown before leaving. The guy almost laughed and we discussed the logic of a backup generator if you shut it down before you leave. LP Gas guy said this was NOT a recommended practice with B&S units.
The LP guy said the B&S will be very good at load managing especially since we do not have electric hot water heaters.
I have also seen where the load shedding capability of B&S units have been very good from other sites and posts.
I have seen that the B&S units do not have an alternator to charge the battery. My Honda powered Craftsman tractor does not appear to have one either, but amp gauge says otherwise as it seems to have a 12v level after it goes back to zero amps.
- Anyone else hear of this being truth or fiction?
LP gas guy also was optimistic about oil use of the unit when I asked him as was the Generac company rep.
-Anyone have input on oil use from either brand?
LP gas guy gave initial quote of ~5k for generator, pad, correct size LP tank and gas connection

Seems real high $ for a 70432 unit. What did the $18K include?

If you are evacuating, there may or may not be a reason to have the generator running. Every situation/time of year can be different. I can tell you when it runs b/c the grid is down, even under essentially no-load, you will empty the LP tank or spin your ng gas meter for no gain. $$$$. If it needs to run to protect certain things, let it run. I have 1 customer who winterizes their house and heads to Fla for 4 months. They shut the gen off b/c their setup doesn‘t need power – no sump pump, etc. I had a difficult time getting them to have their house sitter run the gen for 10 mins every few weeks.

Someone needs to be watching the run-time hours on the unit between service intervals. 200 hours is now the max for generacs. Earlier versions were 100 hours. Never heard of a 24 hr max run time and know plenty of customers who ran 2-3 days straight. I tell customers they can lump their electric needs into short time periods. This allows them to shut down so they don’t run all day to save $ on fuel and not hear all that noise.

Keep in mind your LP gas supplier is more than happy to re-fill your tank.

Load management w/generac is fine. The automatic transfer switch can handle 4 loads either via interrupting the control circuits (e.g. - ac units) or with NC contactors. They even offer a frequency sensing version of contactor (SMM) that locks out loads and brings them back on line in a staggered manner.

I’m curious - What does B&S do so much better for load management?

For all of the generacs I have done annual pm’s on, none has appeared to burn enough oil to warrant any concern of low level. However, none have pushed the 100/200 hour window before service was due. But they do have low level sensors.

$5K for what size gen? Xfer switch, etc….? $5K just gets a 22KW gen w/xfer sw delivered with a few goodies.

 

[ihateminimumwage]

The company who installed it last spring for ~$18k; told him to turn it off before he evacuated for Florence (he was not going to be in the house) since it would need to be shut down every 24 hours or it could burn up.

If you're evacuating and not going to be home, it's not a bad thing to shut it down. If the grid power goes down it's just going to run endlessly and cause unnecessary wear on the engine, chew through all the fuel it has available, and be powering an empty house.

I have seen that the B&S units do not have an alternator to charge the battery. My Honda powered Craftsman tractor does not appear to have one either, but amp gauge says otherwise as it seems to have a 12v level after it goes back to zero amps.
- Anyone else hear of this being truth or fiction?

Pretty much all of the air cooled standby sets use a battery charge rectifier to maintain the battery while running (two AC leads in, one DC out), or have one built into the controller's battery maintainer.

I’m curious - What does B&S do so much better for load management?

The Briggs system actively communicates through the Neutral lead, is installed in the already existing wiring, and allows up to 8 modules to be installed and programmed by priority. It allows you to choose what to use, and kicks off the lowest priority module when something set as higher is turned on. When you shut off the higher priority, it brings the lower module back online. In theory this allows you to run a smaller kW generator, but I lived in an area where the generator amp rating had to meet or exceed the main breaker amp rating, so this didn't really apply (although everyone would argue over why they would be running the heater and AC at the same time, especially during an outage).

The Generac system works, but it's more reactionary load shed than load management. Since it works off of frequency, it kicks out the lower priority loads when the engine starts to get overloaded, counts down, and tries to bring them back online, then locks them out after a few tries if they prove to be too much for the engine.

 

[mm08822]

The Briggs system actively communicates through the Neutral lead, is installed in the already existing wiring, and allows up to 8 modules to be installed and programmed by priority. It allows you to choose what to use, and kicks off the lowest priority module when something set as higher is turned on. When you shut off the higher priority, it brings the lower module back online. In theory this allows you to run a smaller kW generator, but I lived in an area where the generator amp rating had to meet or exceed the main breaker amp rating, so this didn't really apply (although everyone would argue over why they would be running the heater and AC at the same time, especially during an outage).

The Generac system works, but it's more reactionary load shed than load management. Since it works off of frequency, it kicks out the lower priority loads when the engine starts to get overloaded, counts down, and tries to bring them back online, then locks them out after a few tries if they prove to be too much for the engine.

[/QUOTE]

After skimming the B&S xfer switch and load shed module manuals, I found the Generac SMM modules function very closely to the B&S modules wrt priority settings, power-up and re-connection, but not completely. I think the big difference is B&S measures the generator load current incoming to the xfer switch and uses those measured values (actually the deltas) to determine the loads passing through each load shed module as it connects. The xfer switch also has dip switches to set the connected generator KW rating. Having these extra data values, it is easy to predict which loads can be reconnected with a lower risk of overload.
As the # of managed loads increase, I can see this being of increasing value. Pretty cool.

 

[ihateminimumwage]

After skimming the B&S xfer switch and load shed module manuals, I found the Generac SMM modules function very closely to the B&S modules wrt priority settings, power-up and re-connection, but not completely. I think the big difference is B&S measures the generator load current incoming to the xfer switch and uses those measured values (actually the deltas) to determine the loads passing through each load shed module as it connects. The xfer switch also has dip switches to set the connected generator KW rating. Having these extra data values, it is easy to predict which loads can be reconnected with a lower risk of overload. As the # of managed loads increase, I can see this being of increasing value. Pretty cool.

It's a really well designed setup. Too bad I work for a Generac Industrial company now, so I'll probably have little to no run in with either setup for a while.

 

[thammel]

I went with a Winco 8kw generator and a ASCO transfer switch feeding a new subpanel. The transfer switch is expensive - around $750, but it's a great quality device!
Tom

 

[ncboat]

Having just come through Florence in Wilmington N.C. I have some observations. I ran a Champion 1200 watt on multiple occasions because it could power 2 fridges, tv, several lights and sipped fuel. I ran my Centurian 5k for about 4 hrs at a time 2 times a day to really give fridges time to cool and run water heater for showers. We obviously did not have enough gen to power hvac which would have made it much easier. Fuel mgnt was the big exercise not knowing how long we would be out which was 6 days.I was able to get out one morning about 5 am and be in line when a station opened.
My desire would be a gen large enough to run my hvac but would idle down when the load is minimal to conserve fuel. L.P. seams attractive since we already have a 50 gal propane tank but I am not sure how long that would last. Gasoline has the possibility of getting more if you run low but I can guarantee there were no propane trucks to be seen.
Will the 22k units discussed throttle way down and would love any comments on fuel usage especially propane vs gas,. Not trying to hijack thread but this very timely.

 

[yeldogt]

Fuel use is an issue -- they need at least 500g tank. Mine is 1k -- they all publish a fuel use. I went with the cummins 20 based on the fuel use and the load management.