Steel box beam barn?

[air cooled]

Hi,

I recently acquired some free 30' long galvanized steel box beams and am wondering how / if I might use them to build a pole barn.
I have 10 beams so far and might be able to grab some more shortly.
Most of the beams are 9" per side but a few are 12" per side.

I had envisioned cutting some 20' long so I could bury them 5' in the ground and have 15' tall walls.
And using some of the others to span 30' at a time along the top of these steel box beam columns to attach the wood trusses to.

I have three concerns:
First - Can I use these to build my own barn and still get the barn insured?
Do I have to get a structural engineer to sign off on using these?
Second - How do I attach girts, interior framing, etc to these steel beams?
Third -I may not be smart enough to realize some of the other obvious
concerns I should have.

https://goo.gl/photos/yPdd8qrThUCti1Ga7

 

[f150skidoo]

I don't see why you couldn't use them as your post as long as there a good thickness like 1/4". For your beams you would need to find some one to calculate there deflection compared to a I beam so there compliant to your local building code. To attach the wood trusses you would need to bolt a 2x6 sill plate to the beams.

 

[air cooled]

That's a good idea about the sill plate.
Attach the 2X6 to the steel beam instead of messing with attaching every truss to the steel beam.

I'll measure the thickness of the steel tomorrow.

Thanks f150skidoo

PS - I liked your One Ton Table build

 

[plow]

What's a box beam???

 

[sublimate]

What's a box beam???

Neither a beam nor a box.

It's square tube.

OP, what was the steel made / used for originally?
Some sort of lift spreader? Looks familiar.

 

[matt_i]

A 9" sq or 12" square tube is pretty serious. What's the wall thickness?

When the tubes are welded, they or you will have to grind off the galvanization as prep.

My recommendation is to not bury the tubes in the ground. Rather, cut square and weld punched or drilled plates to them which can be bolted down. Build reinforced column footings with anchor bolts cast into the concrete. Tie them together with a perimeter grade beam.

 

[air cooled]

Thanks for the input so far guys.

'plow', the description 'sublimate' gave is correct.
I don't know if "box beam" is the correct term but I didn't want to confuse them with
an I-beam or a solid steel pole.

'matt i' I think after I grind off the galvanization, before any welding, I still have to be
careful; doesn't welding through galvanization produce poison gas?

I thought I could bury the beams directly in the ground because the galvanization
would protect them, at least as long as the chemical pressure treatment protects
wooden columns directly buried in the ground.

The beams were originally used to hold lines on power poles.
They were suspended horizontally between two 40' wooden poles to hold three power lines.

The end plates are 1/2" steel.
The beams are 3/16" thick steel.

 

[air cooled]

I am a little concerned that if I bury the steel box beams directly in the ground they will be a cold point in the building and **** some of the heat out.
I guess I could spray the bottom 4 or 5 feet of the beams that are going in the ground with closed cell foam to help stop some of this heat transfer?

 

[Fueler]

I am a little concerned that if I bury the steel box beams directly in the ground they will be a cold point in the building and **** some of the heat out.
I guess I could spray the bottom 4 or 5 feet of the beams that are going in the ground with closed cell foam to help stop some of this heat transfer?

Back up and read Matt I post. He has the correct idea. Burying not a good thing.

 

[air cooled]

'fueler' I appreciate you and 'matt i' taking the time to post, however, without knowing why you two don't think I should bury the steel box beams I cant evaluate your suggestions very well.
Is it due to worries about rust, beams not being strong enough, poles bending, frost heave, heat loss...........?

thanks
brian

 

[CNGsaves]

OP . . . you've been on GJ for 4 yrs and yet haven't put in LOCATION yet. Can't expect best advice when no clue where you're at.

Burying steel pipes in wet soil that will quickly rust (most likely locations) is totally different than if you're in Saudi Arabia and burying pipes in SAND !!

Update GJ Profile with City / State / Country.

Best solution would be concrete foundation with bolts above grade that would be bolted to steel frame of building structure - - - thus weld plates to pipes.

 

[air cooled]

'CNGsaves', rookie mistake on my part....location updated

I thought because the steel is galvanized, rust would not be as much as an issue.

 

[CNGsaves]

I suppose if you were able to fill beam first with concrete, then set the beam in concrete that galvanized steel would be same situation as fence post of galvanized steel put in concrete.

Were you thinking sonotube to set the beams in concrete ??

Or what about building steel "stubs" that would be set in concrete and slide into beam to be through bolted ?? If those were above grade, I'd think those would hold up over time even if beams were hollow.

I think you can make them work, but I wouldn't just bury them hollow in dirt.

 

[air cooled]

I guess the best ideas are to either put sonotubes in the ground with anchor bolts and bolt the box beams to those, or put the box beams in the ground on a cement wafer and fill up the rest of the hole around the beams with cement.
Either option will keep the box beams out of contact with the dirt.


Perhaps I am over thinking this and I should just use a few beams to make a mezzanine in my barn and use the rest of these beams for some other project down the road.
They would make one hell of a swing set.

 

[manwithtools]

I'm not so sure that setting these tubes directly in concrete is a bad idea. They are likely hot dipped galvanized, the utility industry usually uses top grade materials and coating as they don't want issues later on.

According to the American Galvanizers Association the average life in soils is as follows:

"Assuming 3.5 mils as a minimum thickness for HDG buried in soil, the chart shows the average life in the harshest soils (uncommon) would be approximately 30 years and in the best soils exceed 120 years."

In your case the concrete inside of sonotubes would prevent direct soil contact - I'd expect exceptional life out of those galvanized steel tubes installed in that way. If you notice, the utility companies frequently install power poles made of galvanized steel - big ones at that - directly buried in the ground. They do have an additional coating of asphalt over the galvanizing in the area that contacts the ground. In your case the concrete would serve much the same purpose, if it lasts 50 - 100 years would that be long enough for you?

I would have an engineer do calculations on whatever you intend to construct. I'd be comfortable with their use in the vertical, but I'd want some engineering assurance in the horizontal. I'm betting that the sizes you have would be good for your intended use with no problem - just get that assurance before hand. Don't listen to a internet know it all for that information (unless he's a structural engineer that will send you stamped drawings )

Given that you got the beams for free you can pay an engineer to do the quick calculations necessary.

 

[matt_i]

The biggest problem with direct burial is that the soil can't grip the sides of the tube.

So then you are into doing something like pouring ready mix or quick crete into post holes to create sort of a footing.

Two issues arise from that...unless you are very careful with something like a small scoop and a laser level each of the footings is going to be at a different height. Cutting off steel posts to level at the top is not as trivial as chainsawing off a wooden post. Also the footing you get is sort of janky in my opinion.

Better practice would be to build a set of level, reinforced footings, embedded bolts, and bolt the posts to it/them. Its just my opinion, direct burial is not an impossibility, but there are some other issues to be resolved. But, cutting the beams on a saw, to a uniform dimension is going to be so much easier and be cleaner and neater than cutting at height with something like an abrasive wheel or an oxyacet torch.

 

[kbs2244]

I am a big fan of ridge beam roof construction due to the high resulting celing.
At 30 feet long you have a perfect roof beam for a 30 foot ridge beam.

matt has a good idea about the problems of using then as verticals.
It can be done, but you would have to be very careful and use good tools for lifting and aligning.

With those end plates they would make great top to top of post spreaders between regular square posts.
For a 30x30 building you would only need well placed posts at the 4 corners.

 

[air cooled]

'manwithtools', they are hot dipped and it seems well done, better than galvanization you see at the big box home repair stores.

'matt i' the ends of each box beam has a 1/2" steel cap that stick out over 2" on some of the sides, but some sort of concrete footing (even if just a bag full of cement poured in the bottom of the hole) might help create a level footing and prevent frost heave.

Also, as you suggested, a sonotube footing would make them all level and I could cut the box beams while they were on the ground which would let me make much more accurate and level cuts.

'kbs2244' My barn will be 72X42 (if my damn variance passes) and if I understand 'ridge beam' correctly i would need a column in the middle of the barn where two of the box beams were joined together as they traveled horizontally down the roof peak?


It may be that after I pay an engineer to sign off on using the box beams as posts, I would not be any money ahead.
The county would likely want engineered drawings for the pole barn if I started doing something 'creative' that they weren't sure about, and I think right now they just require the trusses to be engineered.

I t also might be a hassle to find ways to attach the vertical beams to the horizontal beams, attach the roof purlins to the vertical beams and to attach the interior stick framing for the insulation.

 

[kbs2244]

A post where the ridge beams meet may be needed.

If you hire an engineer he should be able to tell you if bolting then together, end to end, would give you how much span you could get.