Stepped into the porcelain deep end

[SapesOfIndia]

Do You Need to Back Butter Tiles?

How To Back Butter Ceramic Tile

Back Butter Buddy (I put a bucket on the stand and walked around it to get a good angle without rotating the tile but this would have been perfect)

BBB -- Back Butter Buddy -- in action on 36'' x 36'' large format tile (See how thinset is removed after backbuttering to eliminate any thinset thickness issues)

 

[bullnerd]

"Your great grand daddy could have been doing it with some other method for 1500 years but it still doesn't mean it is right. "

LOL! yeah it does.

 

[duneslider]

That is a good video. I've been back to the TCNA several times, been through their lab where they do the testing that is used to create the industry standards. You obviously know way more than me and the industry cause you watched a 20+ year old youtube video.

Porcelain tiles are extremely different than the clay based ceramic tiles used in that video. You can get a much better bond with clay based ceramic as opposed to a porcelain tile. Back butter or not trowel selection and proper thinset mixing is extremely important and generally overlooked. Most home improvement stores don't carry enough trowels to really get what you need, especially if you are installing tiles 12" or bigger.

Testing, guys in their garage, professional installers, and the scientists at the TCNA and every manufacturer, shows that a back buttered tile will have a better bond.

I am sorry you took offense to the word ignorance (Ignorance is a state of being uninformed). If I had said you were stupid that would be offensive in my book, saying you are un/misinformed shouldn't be that offensive. I apologize if you felt offended. Perhaps I was a little direct, I should have beat around the bush a little and been ambiguous then everyone would be happy and confused. I put some smiley's in so you would know I am not trying to be mean, or make a personal attack.

There are some thinsets that have been specifically and chemically designed to which the manufacturer eludes you don't need to back butter, Mapei's Ultracontact for example (though even they seem to have left that wording out of their new literature). Its a bit more expensive than other thinset though.

A LOT has changed in the tile industry in the last 30 years. You can't just take for gospel everything that was taught to you 30 years ago.

"Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana

Again, you all can do whatever you like in your own garage, its not like there are tile police. With all these tile experts here I am probably just wasting my breath trying to help anyway.

Good luck with your flooring projects!

 

[Dakota00]

Again, you all can do whatever you like in your own garage, its not like there are tile police. With all these tile experts here I am probably just wasting my breath trying to help anyway.

bwhahahaha!!!

 

[slickgt1]

Lol, awesome. Duneslider, good job. You can't not hurt everyone's feelings. **** happens, we all adults.

I showed my tile setter guy this thread, he went crazy, and said internet is full of misinformed idiots. Then he kicked a bucket of thinset that hardened while he was reading this thread. Then said thank god for dumbassea that read the internet, and then call him to charge double for a clean install.

 

[JimVonBaden]

Lol, awesome. Duneslider, good job. You can't not hurt everyone's feelings. **** happens, we all adults.

I showed my tile setter guy this thread, he went crazy, and said internet is full of misinformed idiots. Then he kicked a bucket of thinset that hardened while he was reading this thread. Then said thank god for dumbassea that read the internet, and then call him to charge double for a clean install.

I've heard the same thing from mechanics that say you can't work on your own motorcycle without messing it up. Funny thing, I know of only twice where someone really messed up their bike working on it.

Jim

 

[duneslider]

In no way am I saying that a DIY'er can't do an exceptional job setting tile. I have seen people do work that flat out amazed me, and blew me away that they had never done it before. Of course it took them way longer than a pro but for them it didn't matter because they wanted to do it. They educated themselves, they worked hard, and the took their time and did a great job. I hope that nothing I have said has indicated that people shouldn't do their own tile work if they so choose, and if people are going to ask questions you can be darn sure that I am going to do my best to educate in a way that they will have the most success possible. Exterior (garages count as exterior because most are unconditioned space) are the most problematic areas to set tile, you can get away with a lot more in interior applications.
I have literally spent hundreds of hours on other forums trying to help other people learn to do their own tile the right way, some choose to follow wise counsel and others didn't but it was always sad when someone would return with a sad story that could have been prevented had they followed good advice.

Good luck out there!

 

[AZpilot]

I have been setting tile for years. By cracking open my checkbook and getting the guy that knows how to do it. Not saying there should be no DIY. But I know my limitations. And my limitations are my back and my schedule.

 

[DefSport]

That is a good video. I've been back to the TCNA several times, been through their lab where they do the testing that is used to create the industry standards. You obviously know way more than me and the industry cause you watched a 20+ year old youtube video.

Porcelain tiles are extremely different than the clay based ceramic tiles used in that video. You can get a much better bond with clay based ceramic as opposed to a porcelain tile. Back butter or not trowel selection and proper thinset mixing is extremely important and generally overlooked. Most home improvement stores don't carry enough trowels to really get what you need, especially if you are installing tiles 12" or bigger.

Testing, guys in their garage, professional installers, and the scientists at the TCNA and every manufacturer, shows that a back buttered tile will have a better bond.

I am sorry you took offense to the word ignorance (Ignorance is a state of being uninformed). If I had said you were stupid that would be offensive in my book, saying you are un/misinformed shouldn't be that offensive. I apologize if you felt offended. Perhaps I was a little direct, I should have beat around the bush a little and been ambiguous then everyone would be happy and confused. I put some smiley's in so you would know I am not trying to be mean, or make a personal attack.

There are some thinsets that have been specifically and chemically designed to which the manufacturer eludes you don't need to back butter, Mapei's Ultracontact for example (though even they seem to have left that wording out of their new literature). Its a bit more expensive than other thinset though.

A LOT has changed in the tile industry in the last 30 years. You can't just take for gospel everything that was taught to you 30 years ago.

"Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana

Again, you all can do whatever you like in your own garage, its not like there are tile police. With all these tile experts here I am probably just wasting my breath trying to help anyway.

Good luck with your flooring projects!

I never implied that you didn't know what you were talking about, but like you said, there are a lot of people who talk on the internet. I never said my method is the only way, but I've done enough thinset coverage testing myself to feel confident in my install job.

And yea, the TCNA video is a little old, but I'd still say that doesn't make the advice any less valid when taken in context. As for porcelain tile being very different than clay ceramic, porcelain is clay, just fired at a higher temperature. Different, but not drastically so.

As for the "direct" comment, I was just saying that there's a polite way to disagree with someone, and a way to do it where you're being a bit of an ****. I'd say you were a bit of an ****, but that's fine, everybody's got their own style.

Lol, awesome. Duneslider, good job. You can't not hurt everyone's feelings. **** happens, we all adults.

I showed my tile setter guy this thread, he went crazy, and said internet is full of misinformed idiots. Then he kicked a bucket of thinset that hardened while he was reading this thread. Then said thank god for dumbassea that read the internet, and then call him to charge double for a clean install.

Some more than others...

 

[bdamico]

can we save bickering for the epoxy threads?

 

[duneslider]

Porcelain tile isn't clay, it is pressed dust fired at a higher temperature than clay ceramic resulting in different characteristics. It is probably closer to glass than clay ceramic. I am sure you wouldn't handle glass tile the same as ceramic? So, sure, there is no difference between them. You're right, I'm wrong, so that settles it.

TCNA video is still excellent but some things have changed in the last 20 years. The basic technique is still good though. Things will continue to change too, technology gets better. Chemists figure out new things. More testing is done. More experience is gained. I am glad I don't still do things like I did them 15 years ago. My first visit to the TCNA in South Carolina was an eye opener. The lab is right near Clemson University, cool place to visit for the tile nerds.

 

[duneslider]

You're right bdamico. I am a little too passionate about tile I guess, I am done. I am no longer a professional, just an amateur so I will hold my tongue.

I do have a question for you on your cabinets but I will post that over in your thread! And I promise not to say anything about tile, even though yours did turn out great.

 

[DefSport]

Porcelain tile isn't clay, it is pressed dust fired at a higher temperature than clay ceramic resulting in different characteristics. It is probably closer to glass than clay ceramic. I am sure you wouldn't handle glass tile the same as ceramic? So, sure, there is no difference between them. You're right, I'm wrong, so that settles it.

TCNA video is still excellent but some things have changed in the last 20 years. The basic technique is still good though. Things will continue to change too, technology gets better. Chemists figure out new things. More testing is done. More experience is gained. I am glad I don't still do things like I did them 15 years ago. My first visit to the TCNA in South Carolina was an eye opener. The lab is right near Clemson University, cool place to visit for the tile nerds.

Calm down man. You're basically repeating what I said about porcelain. Yes, it might be a different type of clay, but it's still a clay. It's fired at a higher temperature above the glass transition temperature of many of the minerals such that it does form glass structures inside, which is what gives it the hardness and makes it near impervious to water/moisture. So yes, you're right, and I guess I'm right. Whoooossaaaaaaa... Breathe in.... Breathe out...


I went and watched some videos on back buttering, and it seems that most just give a couple of wiggles back and forth of the tile, then talk about the bad coverage when you do the same with a dry tile. I 100% agree with this. If you don't COMPLETELY distort the trowel pattern into a smooth bed of thinset, then yes, back buttering will yield better adhesion with your substrate. But the reason it's working better is both are yielding less than 100% mortar coverage, you just can't see it on the back buttered tile except that there's still a trowel pattern when the tile is pried up.

But if you move the tile back and forth about 3-4x as much as while applying pressure to it (knees or the like), then you should have good coverage. It's a good idea to check your technique and ensure at least 95% coverage or whatever the TCNA recommends for exterior applications. I've checked a bunch of tiles I've done in my garage, and they were all basically 100% full coverage.

I'll leave it that back buttering tiles is not improper under any circumstances, but rely on what you see when you check your tiles for adhesion when doing a tile job. Use whatever technique gets you the required thinset adhesion percentage.

 

[KPSquared]

You know the old saying about arguing on the internet? If not, google it. . .I think it applies in this thread.

Either way, I appreciate all the info here. I hope to get started on my floor eventually. I just have this GIANT pile of tile taking up space.

I talked my dad into doing tile in his garage and he loves it. Just a sweep and a mop and it looks brand new. So cool . . . Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks? He's 72 and when I first suggested it, he wouldn't even believe me. Then I got a good deal on tile and slowly convinced him. Now his garage looks awesome!

wesalexleft - Your garage looks awesome. I was looking for something for the transition and the RENO-U looks perfect. The RENO-RAMP just looks like to much metal to be exposed to all my mud and gravel. . .it'll just get beat up and its crazy expensive . . .

 

[wesalexleft]

Here is a quick 4 month update. I've had plenty of time to work in, and clean, the tile floor. Loving it! Attached are a couple pictures for the doubting Thomas' out there. It did make me nervous that first time with a steel wheeled floor jack, so I started light with a motorcycle in the air. No problems with 700 lbs lifted. Later, I needed a Mercury Mountaineer lifted up to get underneath and lifted one side of the truck up by the floor jack until one wheel was off the ground, and the other tire was nearly. Both pictures are attached. I've had no problems so far, and the floor gets a quick wash along with the cars. Just hose it down, lightly mop, and squeegee dry.

 

[bullnerd]

Very cool..I'm diggin this stuff.

Beauty bike BTW.

 

[JakeKohl]

My tile has arrived...now to do a little floor reinforcement for a future 2 post lift and we're off.

New work table for downstairs by -Team Seacats-

 

[slickgt1]

Here is a quick 4 month update. I've had plenty of time to work in, and clean, the tile floor. Loving it! Attached are a couple pictures for the doubting Thomas' out there. It did make me nervous that first time with a steel wheeled floor jack, so I started light with a motorcycle in the air. No problems with 700 lbs lifted. Later, I needed a Mercury Mountaineer lifted up to get underneath and lifted one side of the truck up by the floor jack until one wheel was off the ground, and the other tire was nearly. Both pictures are attached. I've had no problems so far, and the floor gets a quick wash along with the cars. Just hose it down, lightly mop, and squeegee dry.

Click on my "Tile for the win" link below. I have my 2006 BMW 4.8is X5, both wheels of the ground, nothing protecting floor. No damage what so ever.

 

[slickgt1]

My tile has arrived...now to do a little floor reinforcement for a future 2 post lift and we're off.

New work table for downstairs by -Team Seacats-

Congrats, we need better pics. Is that it on top? Those are huge, not going to be fun handling such a huge tile.

 

[JakeKohl]

Congrats, we need better pics. Is that it on top? Those are huge, not going to be fun handling such a huge tile.

Yeah - that is them on top and I agree, I decided to hire someone that knows what they are doing to install them - and the expert says that they need to grind down some high spots in the concrete to make it right. The tile price was terrific...someone had linked to them here at builddirect. $0.99 / sq ft, full body PEI 5 rectified tile. The only kicker was that they only had the 24"x24" ones left at that price for the color I liked. Freight was about $380 but I still got all the tile for about $1.29/sqft including freight. Install, however, is going to offset those savings by a good bit. I'll have about $4200 in the 24x36' floor all said and done.

More photos will come in my build thread when I get some action going.

 

[slickgt1]

Yea, but the floor will be permanent, and you will never have to recoat, or do some stupid **** to it to maintain it. Link us to your thread.

 

[wesalexleft]

A last update on the garage floor. I just sold the house in May of 2023, 10 years after the install, and never had one tile crack. I loved having it for 10 years, and I already miss it at the new house. There was never a spill that couldn't be cleaned. Here's a last picture of work performed in the garage. At its worst I had a Yukon Denal on on 4 stands, with no issues whatsoever.