Stick or oxy for cheap, versatile welding?

[AceofSpad3s]

Not in desperate need for one at the moment, but since it's getting warm at the moment odds are I'll run into something at a garage sale sometime in the next few months.
I have a little experience with all types of welding, just practice stuff. Managed to get some good results out of mig,tig and stick, but was pretty awful with oxy, but that was probably 5 years ago.

Some things off the top of my head I might run into are.
welding cast iron got a late 40's craftsman vise with some sever cracking on the ledge
building a steel workbench
maybe welding a toe hitch onto the frame of my car or welding on floor pans or other stuff if I find myself a old truck or 2nd gen f body as a project

Stick is pretty versatile for most except for thin body work I've heard, as well as no hassle with tanks or that. Only got wall power, so can't do anything really crazy.
However, oxy would be more versatile for stuff other than welding, heating up stuck parts, cutting metal, welding thinner materials, doing things in areas without electricity (which would be never probably). But has the downside of dealing with gas and tanks.

Which should I keep my eye out for?

 

[sreeb]

Oxy isn't cheap

 

[Stinger]

MIG is good for everything you listed except the vise and it certainly results in a better looking weld without slag or anything to deal with.

 

[AceofSpad3s]

Oxy isn't cheap

I've seen the portable kits for $300 for the whole set up, obviously not ideal. I've seen used full tank set ups fairly cheap, which is what I'd be looking at. Plus the added versatility of cutting and heating adds some value for me.

MIG is good for everything you listed except the vise and it certainly results in a better looking weld without slag or anything to deal with.

I don't really mind about looks as long as the welds are strong, since I can always just grind and paint if I really need something pretty. I want something that can do a lot of different jobs (including cast iron) without a huge investment or hassle.

 

[speed bump]

They both have their plusses and minuses. Once I bought my first MIG welder I'm not sure I have done anything but use a cutting head on my torch but I did a lot of bodywork with a torch before that. The downside to using a torch is the heat tends to distort panels so you weld and then work the panel back to where it should be.

I still semi-regularly use my stick welder for outside work or quick jobs because I can plug in the leads, flip the switch and walk to the project. Cleaning up slag can be a drag on certain things but so is grinding out welds when the wind blew away your shielding gas. Sheet metal work with a stick welder is tricky with DC and painful with AC.

Overall I would say a torch is one of the most useful things you can have in a shop but it isn't a one size fits all tool for most Fab work. An arc welder is useful but will sit a lot. A small MiG welder has a higher barrier to entry but is generally the way to go for smaller welding work. If you do enough fan work you will eventually need all 3.

 

[ez-duzit]

TIG is more versatile, will do extremely thin metal, including stainless. And you could weld aluminum.

 

[itstippy]

How much room have you got in the shop? Have you got 220V?

Used stick welders are readily available and cheap (Lincoln Tombstone). Often you can get helmet, gloves, rods, the whole shebang for $200. They're big and heavy and people want them gone. The older units are top notch; there's not much to go wrong with a big old buzz box welder with copper windings. Find one that does AC and DC. Make sure the cables are in good shape.

The downsides are they take up a lot of floorspace and aren't as easy to use as a MIG. They are not a good choice for little stuff (sheet metal). They're the bomb for "farm welding".

 

[AceofSpad3s]

How much room have you got in the shop? Have you got 220V?

Used stick welders are readily available and cheap (Lincoln Tombstone). Often you can get helmet, gloves, rods, the whole shebang for $200. They're big and heavy and people want them gone. The older units are top notch; there's not much to go wrong with a big old buzz box welder with copper windings. Find one that does AC and DC. Make sure the cables are in good shape.

The downsides are they take up a lot of floorspace and aren't as easy to use as a MIG. They are not a good choice for little stuff (sheet metal). They're the bomb for "farm welding".

110 or 120 whatever standard wall is all I got. shop is 10x10 and already a mess so one more litte (big) thing won't kill me space wise.

 

[lilredex]

You won't do much more than weld sheet metal and exhaust pipes with 120V. O/A is nice to have but costs $$$$ to use. Those portable carry jobs won't last ten minutes on a real job.

Better look at 240V and go from there. Then get a Lincoln 225 buzz box as has been suggested, mine went up on the wall in all my small shops.

 

[AceofSpad3s]

You won't do much more than weld sheet metal and exhaust pipes with 120V. O/A is nice to have but costs $$$$ to use. Those portable carry jobs won't last ten minutes on a real job.

Better look at 240V and go from there. Then get a Lincoln 225 buzz box as has been suggested, mine went up on the wall in all my small shops.

How thick would I be capped out with using 120v? Honestly it ain't really a proper shop, I got my tools out there but All I got is some lights, don't even have a outlet to plug anything into. I don't really work in there, I mostly do stuff outside or use the larger garage space to set up saws and stuff. Don't really want to mess with the electrical since that's the only thing that really makes me nervous, don't want to dig in how they sent power from the breaker to the detached garage, maybe sent it through a slab or something. Out of sight out of mind I might move at some point and I don't plan staying here for the rest of my life so I don't want to do too much messing about.

Dryers go off 220, yeah? If I got a heavy gauge 220 extension cord, would it still have enough omphh to do some thick stuff if it's run off a 50 foot cord?
Obviously not Ideal, but considering my garage isn't really big enough to have the car in and work around it, I'd probably need to wheel it out anyways to do any work, and that'd need an extension cord too. Could just unplug the dryer or oven (don't tell the lady about that) and run the cord out the bulkhead or door, put a bench on wheels and the unit on wheels and pray it isn't raining or snowing out

 

[matt_i]

There's no one-size-fits-all. From what you describe, stick would probably fit the projects you listed. As mentioned, many DCEN tig welders can also do DCEP stick. Also AC for aluminum welding.

Thats DC Electrode Negative or DC Electrode Positive.

Tig welding is ideal for small or sensitive parts due to no slag, spatter and almost infinite control over amperage. Stick is excellent for a deeper penetrating heavier weld one can trust with higher load bearing structures.

The torch in my shop is for blacksmith bending of stuff, unsticking rusty bolts and occasionaly silver brazing.

 

[seber]

Stick or mig is a choice made according to how heavy your parts are. I use both and I have OA which I never break out. I can't imagine how you could use stick with only 110vac available though. Propane torch does most of my heating. If it really needs a lot of heat I go to Mapp-oxy. Much more convenient than the big bottles and if you are buying, it is way cheaper.

 

[dcummer]

Dryers go off 220, yeah? If I got a heavy gauge 220 extension cord, would it still have enough omphh to do some thick stuff if it's run off a 50 foot cord?

Absolutely. Match your cable to your welder input current, conservative numbers would be 30a for 10ga, 40a for 8ga, and 50a for 6ga conductors.

 

[itstippy]

One like this gets you welding big stuff for little money. You'll need to run a 220V line to your garage, not a big deal. You can find someone to help you do that on Craigslist too. A 220V line in the garage is a home improvement; you can run heaters and other stuff then too. A really heavy 220V extension cord plugged into the clothes dryer or stove outllet will work for this also. Build one or buy one.

Do your bigger welding in the driveway. I park my truck in front of my project and drape a blue plastic tarp over the side yard fence so I don't blind people walking by or the neighbor's dog. You don't want to do any real welding indoors without lots of ventilation anyway.

https://madison.craigslist.org/tls/d/lincoln-welder/6562258578.html

Then find a decent used 110V MIG for smaller stuff. "Handy MIG" or "Easy MIG" or something like that they're called. They show up often too, as people upgrade. That you can do inddors, with the door open and a fan blowing the smoke out. You don't even need the MIG gas setup right away, though try to find a welder that can be set up to use gas. Flux core wire works fine for most stuff, and is available everywhere.

 

[AceofSpad3s]

Absolutely. Match your cable to your welder input current, conservative numbers would be 30a for 10ga, 40a for 8ga, and 50a for 6ga conductors.

I was looking around and didn't see any readily available online with prices, I imagine it's more of a specialty item I'd have to order from an industrial supply or something. How much would those run for for a 50 footer or is it something I'd have to source the wire and outlets for myself? Probably $100-$200 I imagine?

 

[AceofSpad3s]

One like this gets you welding big stuff for little money. You'll need to run a 220V line to your garage, not a big deal. You can find someone to help you do that on Craigslist too. A 220V line in the garage is a home improvement; you can run heaters and other stuff then too. A really heavy 220V extension cord plugged into the clothes dryer or stove outllet will work for this also. Build one or buy one.

Do your bigger welding in the driveway. I park my truck in front of my project and drape a blue plastic tarp over the side yard fence so I don't blind people walking by or the neighbor's dog. You don't want to do any real welding indoors without lots of ventilation anyway.

https://madison.craigslist.org/tls/d/lincoln-welder/6562258578.html

Then find a decent used 110V MIG for smaller stuff. "Handy MIG" or "Easy MIG" or something like that they're called. They show up often too, as people upgrade. That you can do inddors, with the door open and a fan blowing the smoke out. You don't even need the MIG gas setup right away, though try to find a welder that can be set up to use gas. Flux core wire works fine for most stuff, and is available everywhere.

I won't get into changing it anytime soon, but I'll at least try to do some reading and see where the wires coming from the garage are heading to. I don't know if there is a sub box in there or if it's just one 120 line run over and has a junction splitting it or something.

That seems like common idea, start off with a stick unit and then get a small mig once I need it, sounds like a plan.

Is there any less costly options than oxy set ups to heat up seized parts? Nothing I am running out to buy but just a few days ago I was trying to use a propane torch to heat up a broken off bolt in my brake caliper mounts. No luck with that since it didn't get hot enough, had to drill it out and had a bit brake so that wasn't very fun. Would like to just be aware of what my options are if I ever run into something that can't easily be removed.

 

[itstippy]

There are countless threads on this forum about freeing rusted fasteners; it's a subject only surpassed by which ratchet to buy and what polish to use on it. Here's one from a few days ago:

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=389116

Heat, penetrant, vibration (tap the offending fastener with a hammer or air gun) are the go-to methods. Magic words your father taught you come into play. Sharp, repeated impact is better than sustained extreme torque from a breaker bar. Penetrant and time are extremely helpful but make for a lot of down time waiting for the chemistry to do its thing.

One handy trick, if you have a welder, is to weld a big nut to a broken fastener stub. The heat from the welding process helps free things, and the fresh nut with bigger head diameter give you a better purchase on the recalcitrant fastener stub. Ultimately though, siezed fasteners are a fact of life when you work on old stuff. Guys on Youtube who can do a job in their driveway in two hours aren't working on old rust-belt machinery.

 

[AceofSpad3s]

There are countless threads on this forum about freeing rusted fasteners;

Oh I already know about all the magic oils and stuff, I just know heat works the best and quickest in most cases as long as it isn't near sensitive stuff. I did hammering, oils and everything on those caliper bolts and didn't have too much luck. Welding a new nut on the end would've probably helped though.
I could look at proper impact for that, but I figured heat is cheaper than buying a big boy compressor (some day I will), or investing in the serious tool lines like Milwaukee for cordless (I just have a ryobi for the cordless drill and 1/4 impact, doubt their 1/2 would do much good) and the heat can help on already broken fasteners.

 

[itstippy]

A kit like this works well for heating stuck fasteners. Very handy. It's not really for welding or cutting, just for heat. The little disposable bottles of Oxygen and MAPP are expensive and don't last long, but for heating stuck fasteners this works and costs about $3 in gas per fastener. Well worth it for a DIY task like you ran into. Even professionals often carry around something like this in their bag 'o tricks field kits.

https://www.amazon.com/Bernzomatic-...show_all_btm?ie=UTF8&reviewerType=all_reviews

 

[dutchgray]

You can go oxy propane for heating stuff (our refrigeration guy uses it for brazing as well), you only have the oxygen bottle to worry about then expense wise as common propane bottles are everywhere and cheap.

 

[bobcatdan]

If you don't have 220, arc welding is out. 110 arc welders are pointless. Better off with a 140 amp mig welder if limited to 110. A porta torch kit with filled tanks will be about $350. If you are realistic about what you can do with one, tanks cam last surprising long. I was able to put off buying a full size torch for almost 2 years with just my porta torch. I never welded with it, but heated a lot of stuff with it and still got over a year out of the tank.

 

[itstippy]

A corded impact wrench is handy for a DIY guy with no air compressor and limited budget. There are no batteries to invest in, and it can sit for years between uses without any degradation in power. I used a Black & Decker "Bulldog" before I got air in the shop and still have it kicking around, $20 at a yard sale.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

I have a complete oxy acetylene rig. I had gotten pretty good with it, but decided to augment it with a small Lincoln MIG welder (120VAC). I also bought shielding gas so I could use it with non-flux core wire.

I have not used my oxy-acetylene setup one time since buying the MIG (10 years).

If I need to heat something up to unstick it, I just grab my MAPP torch.

If I need to weld something, I use the MIG.

If I have anything too heavy to weld with the MIG, I either just go ahead and crank the MIG all the way up and use it anyway (it I'm not worried about loading) OR I use the MIG to tack it and then take it to a professional welder to finish it (has happened maybe 3 times in 10 years).

You can weld any thickness of metal with a small MIG unit. You just can't get enough penetration on thick steel to make the weld stronger than the parent metal. Typically, the weld should be stronger than the adjacent sections on anything like a pipeline or a bridge or a building weldment. But if you're just welding a bracket for a whatnot that won't hurt a thing if the weld fails...you can use a welder that's "too small" and get away with it...if that makes any sense. Where I've had a pro help me out is welding up a shock tower brace for my car or such where failure could be a real issue.

Phil

 

[AceofSpad3s]

If you don't have 220, arc welding is out. 110 arc welders are pointless. Better off with a 140 amp mig welder if limited to 110. A porta torch kit with filled tanks will be about $350. If you are realistic about what you can do with one, tanks cam last surprising long. I was able to put off buying a full size torch for almost 2 years with just my porta torch. I never welded with it, but heated a lot of stuff with it and still got over a year out of the tank.

I could always be cheesy and run it off the dryer or oven outlet. Not ideal but nothing I do really is I really want to braze up that vise and I hear it's not too good to do cast on a mig. It's a pretty decent size columbian craftsman machinist, while my wilton 4" is my go to, having another one in service would be nice.

 

[rsanter]

MIG is good for everything you listed except the vise and it certainly results in a better looking weld without slag or anything to deal with.

Basic MIG can be used on cast iron no problem.
Put the item in the BBQ and warm it up. Let it heat soalk completely and then open the BBQ and weld it right there.
Close the lid and leave the BBQ on for a while to stress relieve the weld.
Then turn the BBQ off and leave the thing in there a while to cool slow

 

[Al Borland]

Oxy/Acetylene is probably the most versatile, but welding sheetmetal takes some skill to do without warpage. Get a Jeweller's torch and learn to fusion weld. Basically, metal gets butted against each other and melted together without a filler rod. Start a puddle and push it all the way around without stopping.
Jeweller's torch doesn't use a lot of gas, as it is a very small hot flame. Since there is no filler, the welds aren't harder than the metal and can be hammer worked easier.

 

[AceofSpad3s]

Basic MIG can be used on cast iron no problem.
Put the item in the BBQ and warm it up. Let it heat soalk completely and then open the BBQ and weld it right there.
Close the lid and leave the BBQ on for a while to stress relieve the weld.
Then turn the BBQ off and leave the thing in there a while to cool slow

Didn't know it worked with mig too, what sort of wire would I need to do it?

 

[bobcatdan]

I could always be cheesy and run it off the dryer or oven outlet. Not ideal but nothing I do really is I really want to braze up that vise and I hear it's not too good to do cast on a mig. It's a pretty decent size columbian craftsman machinist, while my wilton 4" is my go to, having another one in service would be nice.

Welding cast is a very refined skill set. To do right the metal has to be preheated to an idea tempture with a torch, welded and then headed again and allowed to cool. Best bet is just take it to a weld shop and have them fix it. They do make nickel wire so welding cast with mug is possible.

 

[woodturner9]

Dryers go off 220, yeah?

No, dryers are a mixed 120/240 circuit. IF you have a four-prong receptacle, the dryer receptacle may be us usable for a welder, but it is a code violation. If the dryer has a 3-prong receptacle, it does not have a ground and cannot be safely used for a better.

It's really better to run a dedicated 240 receptacle for a welder and use larger wire so you don't get the voltage drop.

 

[AceofSpad3s]

No, dryers are a mixed 120/240 circuit. IF you have a four-prong receptacle, the dryer receptacle may be us usable for a welder, but it is a code violation. If the dryer has a 3-prong receptacle, it does not have a ground and cannot be safely used for a better.

It's really better to run a dedicated 240 receptacle for a welder and use larger wire so you don't get the voltage drop.

Some circumstances changed (mainly me finding the 600v line supplying the garage is running through a slab and the wire is actually outside wrapped in electrical tape going into the garage behind a piece of plastic trim) so I'm suddenly a lot more receptive to the idea of running a fresh line out there and putting in an sub panel. I'm going to look into codes an all that and see what the process will be.

 

[sk farmer]

i may be getting the wrong idea but you seem to be all over the place. it seems like you don't know what you want to do or how to do it.

i was really uninterested in this rambling thread until you started talking about a 600 volt wire taped up under your siding. you don't seem to have the knowledge/ability to work with electricity or the desire to hire someone to do it. it is alarming that you have a 600 volt wire in/on your garage(if that what it really is) protected with only tape.

you should seriously consider having a professional deal with that. then have him tell you what you can safely do and make your decision base on that

 

[ez-duzit]

Some circumstances changed (mainly me finding the 600v line supplying the garage...

You really need to learn at least the basics before thinking you're ready to do electrical work. The rating of a wire does not indicate the voltage it's carrying.

 

[Lelandwelds]

The OP has a bit to learn about welding and electricity. I suggest you take a community college class or two. Learn what makes quality work and equipment. Slowly acquire it all.

Make some friends who weld. You must have a skill to trade. Find the local repair shop for 200 hp electric motors. They will be good at cast iron repair. Lurk a welding forum and anot electrical forum. Eventually it will make sense.

 

[Lelandwelds]

Some circumstances changed (mainly me finding the 600v line supplying the garage is running through a slab and the wire is actually outside wrapped in electrical tape going into the garage behind a piece of plastic trim) so I'm suddenly a lot more receptive to the idea of running a fresh line out there and putting in an sub panel. I'm going to look into codes an all that and see what the process will be.

I think you may be confusing the dielectric rating of the insulation with the actual voltage carried by the wire.

 

[AceofSpad3s]

The OP has a bit to learn about welding and electricity. I suggest you take a community college class or two. Learn what makes quality work and equipment. Slowly acquire it all.

Make some friends who weld. You must have a skill to trade. Find the local repair shop for 200 hp electric motors. They will be good at cast iron repair. Lurk a welding forum and anot electrical forum. Eventually it will make sense.

Yeah I'm more carpentry/interior renovation than electricity.
I know the guy that owned the place in the 70's before the wife got it in the divorce and he was a lineman for the city before he retired. I helped him put in new cabinets a while back so next time he stops by I'll ask him to take a peak at the garage and see what he thinks. One of the several owners before us but after him must've done that line as the garage door opener is early 90's and I don't think there was power out there prior. The house was in bad shape when we got it and he said none of the other owners were particularly decent people so it's not a surprise the wiring wasn't done right either.

I think you may be confusing the dielectric rating of the insulation with the actual voltage carried by the wire.

You are most likely right, I know outlets and such are 120v so it wouldn't make much sense for it to be so high, but I saw duratex 600 volt anaconda on the line going out and just decide to back off and do some reading prior to looking any deeper.

 

[Lelandwelds]

Yeah I'm more carpentry/interior renovation than electricity.
I know the guy that owned the place in the 70's before the wife got it in the divorce and he was a lineman for the city before he retired. I helped him put in new cabinets a while back so next time he stops by I'll ask him to take a peak at the garage and see what he thinks. One of the several owners before us but after him must've done that line as the garage door opener is early 90's and I don't think there was power out there prior. The house was in bad shape when we got it and he said none of the other owners were particularly decent people so it's not a surprise the wiring wasn't done right either.


You are most likely right, I know outlets and such are 120v so it wouldn't make much sense for it to be so high, but I saw duratex 600 volt anaconda on the line going out and just decide to back off and do some reading prior to looking any deeper.

There you go! You already have the friend and the skill to trade. If you have two empty spaces in your panel, you have 240 volt. It's the details that gotcha.