Stick vs. wire feed welder

[GNDxero]

I own a wire feed welder that i've used a few times. A guy at work is selling a lincoln stick feed welder. I'm thinking about picking it up cause it's cheap. What are the big differences between the two types, and when do you use each type?

 

[rockwithjason]

stick is good on thicker steel. it is not very good at thinner sheet metal. you can use stick just about anywhere because the shielding gas won't blow away in the wind. if it's cheap i would pick it up for larger jobs especially if it's an ac dc machine

 

[rodknocker]

Another plus is you can turn the stick welder into the TIG welded fairly cheap.

 

[Buckgnarly]

I use stick for: dirty stuff, thick stuff, "farm" stuff, and outdoor/windy. Also good for hard to reach areas.

My MIG is for fabbing and "clean" use along with sheetmetal.

I use both and would not be without both, but do use MIG more.

Is a Lincoln "tombstone"? Try to get an AC/DC also.

 

[Outlawmws]

I have both, (my stick is an AC/DC) but I honestly haven't used my stick in 20 years or so. Also all else being equal, Mig does make a stronger weld generally than Arc. A friend and I argued about this for some time and we literally spent a weekend making test welds and breaking them off in different ways. Overall the Mig welds were stronger. (we even made an adapter for a beam type torque wrench and measured the break points)

And yes we did use different rods in the Arc, but the tensile strength of a MIG weld is simply higher that that most arc rods.

Before another week was out, he had bought himself a 220 Mig welder...

Yes, on heavy materials and cold welding (no preheating) the arc will penetrate better. However if you pre heat for either it take less power to make the welds, and the MIG can penetrate more than adequately. (this is especially important to know and practice for 120V MIGs)

As mentioned the MIG has an advantage in thin materials for the average welder, but a skilled welder can arc weld quite well on thin stuff, but it takes REAL skill.

Lastly arc has some rods and welds that MIG is less suited for (Hard facing comes to mind)

How useful an arc welder will be for you is really dependent on what you weld on, and how much time you are willing to put in to learn to do it. (It is NOT as easy as MIG by a long shot).

 

[GNDxero]

Ah, nice. I'm not sure if it's AC/DC, he did say it was 220v, that's why he's getting rid of it, because he doesn't weld much, and his new house doesn't have that kind of power in the garage. All good information guys thanks!

 

[38Chevy454]

Having a stick welder is quite handy. Good for thicker stuff, not good for thin sheetmetal. I use 6011 rod and it works for almost any application I want it for. Mine is AC only, but I have not had any significant problems. I do find I use my MIG a lot more though. If you have a 220v MIG it can handle most anything the stick welder can. The stick is better for stuff that is not as clean. The MIG is nicer as it is less clean-up without the slag.

I say get the welder if it is cheap or if your MIG is only 120v

 

[jlckmj]

I have both, (my stick is an AC/DC) but I honestly haven't used my stick in 20 years or so. Also all else being equal, Mig does make a stronger weld generally than Arc. A friend and I argued about this for some time and we literally spent a weekend making test welds and breaking them off in different ways. Overall the Mig welds were stronger. (we even made an adapter for a beam type torque wrench and measured the break points)

And yes we did use different rods in the Arc, but the tensile strength of a MIG weld is simply higher that that most arc rods.

Before another week was out, he had bought himself a 220 Mig welder...

Yes, on heavy materials and cold welding (no preheating) the arc will penetrate better. However if you pre heat for either it take less power to make the welds, and the MIG can penetrate more than adequately. (this is especially important to know and practice for 120V MIGs)

As mentioned the MIG has an advantage in thin materials for the average welder, but a skilled welder can arc weld quite well on thin stuff, but it takes REAL skill.

Lastly arc has some rods and welds that MIG is less suited for (Hard facing comes to mind)

How useful an arc welder will be for you is really dependent on what you weld on, and how much time you are willing to put in to learn to do it. (It is NOT as easy as MIG by a long shot).
__________________
-Outlaw

+1 on what he said!
Jim

 

[JASTECH]

I gave a tombstone and a bobcat 250 and a high frequency stick welder. I will get a Mig for thin stuff rebuilding my Scout II's. The stick is better for thicker stuff as the OP wrote. I don't think Mig is stronger then stick or they would use it on beams and ships ect.

 

[Outlawmws]

I gave a tombstone and a bobcat 250 and a high frequency stick welder. I will get a Mig for thin stuff rebuilding my Scout II's. The stick is better for thicker stuff as the OP wrote. I don't think Mig is stronger then stick or they would use it on beams and ships ect.

Typical mild steel MIG welding wire
Tensile strength (psi) ................................ 86,000
Yield point (psi).......................................... 58,000

6011 weld rod
Tensile strength (psi) ................................ 72,000
Yield point (psi).......................................... 63,000

6013 Weld Rod
Tensile strength (psi) ................................ 70,000
Yield point (psi).......................................... 63,000

That's about 20% (+-) stronger, from common MIG wire to common Stick rods.


The reason ship yards and tall structures commonly use arc is portability and "ease of use". It is a lot easier to string relatively flexible copper welding cables and use 12" of /4" (or larger) rod, than to manhandle a MIG welding machine into place and then actually use a gun manually, that would have the wire size required to weld extremely thick plate. A hand held shop MIG welder typically uses a wire no larger than .045. Machine controlled MIG welders in industrial plants can use much thicker wire, and do.

 

[dledinger]

MIG welding IS "arc welding".

Lo-hy would be used for structural....a comparison to 601l, 6013, 6010 is fruitless.

 

[ncfh]

lol

Non-welders posing as welding authority are always good for a laugh.

Metal is metal. Method of deposition, MIG, TIG, stick, etc does not determine weld strength so much as choice of filler metal does. And there is abroad spectrum available for each process.

Structural stick welding rods typically range from 70,000 to 110,000 FYI.

And shipyards use stick because it's windy outside, and MIG gas blows away. Simple as that.

You really think the shipyards give a hoot about "ease of use?" lol

Since when do corporate bean-counters give a hoot about the plight of the working class? Never.

And when they can get away with it, they absolutely prefer semi-automatic MIG-like processes, like dual shield, because it is far faster than stick. And time is money.

 

[Outlawmws]

lol

Non-welders posing as welding authority are always good for a laugh.

Metal is metal. Method of deposition, MIG, TIG, stick, etc does not determine weld strength so much as choice of filler metal does. And there is abroad spectrum available for each process.

Structural stick welding rods typically range from 70,000 to 110,000 FYI.

And shipyards use stick because it's windy outside, and MIG gas blows away. Simple as that.

You really think the shipyards give a hoot about "ease of use?" lol

Since when do corporate bean-counters give a hoot about the plight of the working class? Never.

And when they can get away with it, they absolutely prefer semi-automatic MIG-like processes, like dual shield, because it is far faster than stick. And time is money.

Ah, a self appointed “expert” who didn’t bother to read the whole thread and take things in context… and uses dismissive tactics to try to make points…

“Lols” and platitudes? Gimme a break…

First the “non welder” and “authority” comment: It’s likely I’ve been welding longer than you have been alive; and I was offering my opinions. If you disagree, fine, but try do it without the petty sneering.

If you had taken the comments on welding fillers in context, we are talking about small shop garage use, and 6011 and 6013 are usually the most commonly found filler rods for small shops and home garages, and the wire I listed is what most small to medium sized MIG welders use in that same environment. So in reality we are on the same page there. It is about filer materials…

Good point on the windy conditions being a factor, but that has never stopped others from using MIG and blocking the wind if it makes sense. But in a shipyard or on a high rise, that simply adds to the cost of using MIG, beside the difficulty of MIG welding by hand with the heavy wire that would be required. Wind is not the only factor.

The corp bean counter comment is completely irrelevant to the discussion, but if it makes you feel good, be my guest.

Last comment you made; I agree. MIG is faster in many ways, in the right application.

 

[ncfh]

Ah, someone who can't admit when their wrong.

And somehow figures that decades of bad assumptions and garage hackery somehow equates to real knowledge and professional skill.

But by all means, keep on typing. Every line further demonstrates your total lack of actual knowledge on the subject.

Have fun publicly stroking your aging ego without me. Bye!

lol

 

[Outlawmws]

Ah, someone who can't admit when their wrong.

And somehow figures that decades of bad assumptions and garage hackery somehow equates to real knowledge and professional skill.

But by all means, keep on typing. Every line further demonstrates your total lack of actual knowledge on the subject.

Have fun publicly stroking your aging ego without me. Bye!

lol

More pointless innuendo... (shugs) Have a nice evening.

 

[mitusa]

If it's a tombstone Lincoln....the older the better. The older ones had heavier leads and grounds. The new ones are not nearly as good as the old ones. imo

 

[back2class]

I dumped my ac/dc arc. Used it every few years for odd stuff like cast iron and cutting. But use the wire feed nearly all the time. Just could not justify keeping the arc so sold it for $150

 

[ephotrod]

One isn't greater than another for material thickness. It all depends on the amperage of the machine and the ability of the individual. If you have a 100 amp stick welder and a 200 amp mig welder to weld 1/4 plate one should go for the 200 amp welder. People tend to prefer mig because some say its easier. They both have their places and being a tool guy i say buy the stick in addition to your mig (more tools) thus you have more options and its fun to learn.
Josh

 

[Jason280]

Also all else being equal, Mig does make a stronger weld generally than Arc

Not sure I completely agree with this, as there are quite a few welding rods for stick machines that are very strong. In fact, I am not sure why you ignored 7018 in your comparison, as it is just as common in stick applications as 6011 or 6013. Sure, it may require cleaner metal to begin with, but so does any MIG process.

For the novice or beginning welder, its irrelevant which process he chooses if he doesn't learn the proper technique. A cold weld with no penetration with either arc or MIG is still worthless, regardless of which method used. I think its more important for the individual to figure out which they are more comfortable with, based on their welding needs, and go from there. A guy building trailers in his back yard may not have the same needs as the guy repairing rusted out floor pans in his garage.

That being said, I own several MIG and stick machines, and each have their place in my shop. Stick machines are great, as you can leave them in one place and simply use longer leads. No need to worry about gas or getting closer to the work, just unroll the leads, flip a switch, and go to work!

 

[Your Father]

lol

Non-welders posing as welding authority are always good for a laugh.

Metal is metal. Method of deposition, MIG, TIG, stick, etc does not determine weld strength so much as choice of filler metal does. And there is abroad spectrum available for each process.

Structural stick welding rods typically range from 70,000 to 110,000 FYI.

And shipyards use stick because it's windy outside, and MIG gas blows away. Simple as that.

You really think the shipyards give a hoot about "ease of use?" lol

Since when do corporate bean-counters give a hoot about the plight of the working class? Never.

And when they can get away with it, they absolutely prefer semi-automatic MIG-like processes, like dual shield, because it is far faster than stick. And time is money.

I was wondering who would say something.

 

[rodm1]

Ah, nice. I'm not sure if it's AC/DC, he did say it was 220v, that's why he's getting rid of it, because he doesn't weld much, and his new house doesn't have that kind of power in the garage. All good information guys thanks!

What model number? What price?

 

[dledinger]

Ah, someone who can't admit when their wrong.

And somehow figures that decades of bad assumptions and garage hackery somehow equates to real knowledge and professional skill.

But by all means, keep on typing. Every line further demonstrates your total lack of actual knowledge on the subject.

Have fun publicly stroking your aging ego without me. Bye!

lol

Completely agree.

 

[Mr.N]

If we are just talking stick welders, I suggest Not buying an AC stick welder.

The AC/DC (DC+ & DC-) units give you more options and a thus a better chance at a nicer weld.

In my area the stick AC welders are Always for sale on Craigslist, it's odd to find a AC/DC.

 

[Larwyn]

I keep a Lincoln AC tombstone around just in case I need to weld something that is too much for my little Miller 180 MIG welder. I think it has been about 3 years since I needed the stick welder but it is nice knowing it is there.

There have been more **** ugly but hell for stout welds made with AC only stick welders in the hands of amateurs than any other type of machine. With MIG the opposite is true. It is very easy for someone new to MIG welding to lay some very good looking beads with zero penetration.

I prefer to use my MIG welder. So I generally design my projects around it's capabilities when possible.

 

[Outlawmws]

Not sure I completely agree with this, as there are quite a few welding rods for stick machines that are very strong. In fact, I am not sure why you ignored 7018 in your comparison, as it is just as common in stick applications as 6011 or 6013. Sure, it may require cleaner metal to begin with, but so does any MIG process.

For the novice or beginning welder, its irrelevant which process he chooses if he doesn't learn the proper technique. A cold weld with no penetration with either arc or MIG is still worthless, regardless of which method used. I think its more important for the individual to figure out which they are more comfortable with, based on their welding needs, and go from there. A guy building trailers in his back yard may not have the same needs as the guy repairing rusted out floor pans in his garage.

That being said, I own several MIG and stick machines, and each have their place in my shop. Stick machines are great, as you can leave them in one place and simply use longer leads. No need to worry about gas or getting closer to the work, just unroll the leads, flip a switch, and go to work!

I didn't ignore it, I just didn't remember it. (I did say I hadn't used my stick welder in decades)

but it's still not that high of a tensile strength - 70,000 P.S.I.

 

[grom]

AC tombstones are a dime a dozen... like others are said, a deal on an AC/DC is something to jump on. DC polarity gives a much smoother arc than AC can.

Stick welding is quickly becoming a lost art... low hydrogen 7018 electrodes are for structural use and that argument that "mig makes a stronger weld" is absolutely inane. A skilled welder with mild steel should make equally solid welds with both types of machines.

I tend to reach for 7014 before 6013... I like the weld characteristics of them slightly more. If I'm running plate, frames, ect... I generally reach for a SMAW machine, but it's preference.

SMAW is slower (much slower) than GMAW, and running it in overhead and vertical positions takes a lot of practice to master (esp low hyd). The time difference really takes effect when you start doing groove welds and cover beads... (it takes me about 45 minutes to an hour to run roughly a foot long, four pass t joint with 1/2 mild steel plate) If you mostly do sheet metal, body work, and light repairs, then GMAW is the way to go for you. But having a stick machine is nice... you don't need to screw around with gas. In a small shop where you're rolling stuff into the driveway a lot, they can be very handy to do major projects with. Plus, gas is pricey... electrodes in comparison really aren't.

Just my .02.

 

[Outlawmws]

I was wondering who would say something.

Completely agree.

So you think it's perfectly acceptable to drop a discussion on GJ to name calling dismissive innuendo, instead of discussing the subject like an adult? That's sad....

 

[NUTTSGT]

The real question is . . ."who wouldn't want a Lincoln buzzbox in addition to their MIG welder?"

 

[Jason280]

A friend and I argued about this for some time and we literally spent a weekend making test welds and breaking them off in different ways. Overall the Mig welds were stronger. (we even made an adapter for a beam type torque wrench and measured the break points)

If you are breaking welds with a beam type torque wrench, the problem isn't the wire or rod being used...

I didn't ignore it, I just didn't remember it. (I did say I hadn't used my stick welder in decades)

but it's still not that high of a tensile strength - 70,000 P.S.I.

Not that high?? What, exactly, does the average hobbyist or home welder need that 70k PSI is not adequate for? Unless you are building pressure vessels, 7018 is more than adequate (and in some cases, still adequate). Besides, most of your common mild steels (1018 or A36) have tensile strength ratings in the 63k to 78k range, with most of them falling in the 65-70k range. Please explain to me how having a wire or rod with a tensile strength greater than 70k makes any difference when the metal being used is rated at less than 70k PSI??

For the typical welding novice, wire strength makes absolutely no difference if the welds are porous....or have no penetration....or are contaminated. Suggesting that MIG might be better because the weld is stronger due to higher PSI rods is foolish, as I can pick up a can of 100k+ PSI Lincoln rods Monday morning. Point is, its not necessary, and even claiming one is "stronger" than the other shows a limited understanding of the processes and equipment available to each.

Its possible you may have forgotten more than you realize in the last couple decades!

 

[dledinger]

So you think it's perfectly acceptable to drop a discussion on GJ to name calling dismissive innuendo, instead of discussing the subject like an adult? That's sad....

He didn't do anything that you didn't reciprocate...yet you still have a "holier than thou" attitude about it.

If you wanted to compare fillers, that is one thing. But metal does not know by which process it was welded.

 

[Outlawmws]

If you are breaking welds with a beam type torque wrench, the problem isn't the wire or rod being used...



Not that high?? What, exactly, does the average hobbyist or home welder need that 70k PSI is not adequate for? Unless you are building pressure vessels, 7018 is more than adequate (and in some cases, still adequate). Besides, most of your common mild steels (1018 or A36) have tensile strength ratings in the 63k to 78k range, with most of them falling in the 65-70k range. Please explain to me how having a wire or rod with a tensile strength greater than 70k makes any difference when the metal being used is rated at less than 70k PSI??

For the typical welding novice, wire strength makes absolutely no difference if the welds are porous....or have no penetration....or are contaminated. Suggesting that MIG might be better because the weld is stronger due to higher PSI rods is foolish, as I can pick up a can of 100k+ PSI Lincoln rods Monday morning. Point is, its not necessary, and even claiming one is "stronger" than the other shows a limited understanding of the processes and equipment available to each.

Its possible you may have forgotten more than you realize in the last couple decades!

As to the tests and "breaking the welds" It was in my friends absolute conviction that a arc weld was inherently stronger (he gave lots of theoretical reasons) Have you ever sat down and made a lot of smaller test Welds and compared them in any sort of destructive testing? I recommend it it's quite educational.

Average homeowner, welding not needing anything better? I quite agree. At the time, we were building race cars, so I don't consider that to be average. Shelby Seamless tensile strength runs around 90000 PSI IIR.

Can you get higher strength sticks? Certainly, but again I was generalizing about what is commonly used in that home shop environment.

 

[Outlawmws]

He didn't do anything that you didn't reciprocate...yet you still have a "holier than thou" attitude about it.

If you wanted to compare fillers, that is one thing. But metal does not know by which process it was welded.

No, she made a direct attack on me personally. I called her on it and then discussed her points, then she made yet another attack.

If someone wants to call me on something, I have no problem with that; Maybe I wasn't clear, maybe I'm completely off base, maybe they are confused, maybe they are off base, but you discuss it... making it into a personal attack isn't needed, ever, and certainly taking things out of context does not add anything to a discussion.

Now, can we get back to the OP's original question?

 

[dledinger]

Ok, well we could go back and forth "yes, you did", and "no, I didn't" all day long.....so I'll just state that from my observation you clearly replied with loads of sarcasm, dismissal, and name calling.

This is a big waste of my time...sad, really, that I allowed you to sucker me in to this nonsense.

 

[dledinger]

As to the tests and "breaking the welds" It was in my friends absolute conviction that a arc weld was inherently stronger (he gave lots of theoretical reasons)

A MIG weld IS an "arc weld".

Without realizing that, a discussion on the topic cannot go very far.

 

[Outlawmws]

A MIG weld IS an "arc weld".

Without realizing that, a discussion on the topic cannot go very far.

I seriously doubt anyone misunderstood my meaning.

Arc, Mig Tig, None of them are the "proper" name but everyone seems to understand the difference.

 

[Outlawmws]

Ok, well we could go back and forth "yes, you did", and "no, I didn't" all day long.....so I'll just state that from my observation you clearly replied with loads of sarcasm, dismissal, and name calling.

This is a big waste of my time...sad, really, that I allowed you to sucker me in to this nonsense.

And you did that all by yourself.

 

[dledinger]

Not quite.

MIG or TIG are other names for the processes of GMAW and GTAW.They are perfectly acceptable substitutes for those processes.

"Arc welding" refers to all processes that use an electric arC to fuse metal, and is not a substitute for "stick welding" or it's more formal name, SMAW.

 

[dledinger]

And you did that all by yourself.

I thought you wanted to talk about welding?

Lol, no, I actually never thought that.

 

[Jason280]

At the time, we were building race cars, so I don't consider that to be average. Shelby Seamless tensile strength runs around 90000 PSI IIR.

Can you get higher strength sticks? Certainly, but again I was generalizing about what is commonly used in that home shop environment.

I find it odd that your generalizations mention consumables "commonly used in the home shop environment", yet the comparison you use as the basis for requiring high 80k+ PSI wire/rods is race car frames and/or DOM tubing (materials that are typically never found in the home shop environment). You want to compare "common" consumables for the sake of your argument, yet want to use uncommon materials.

Point is, arguing strength of one over the other is ridiculous, as high PSI consumables are available for both methods of welding.

 

[Outlawmws]

I give up, the trolls win You keep stringing things together to suit your arguments and I really can't be bothered to try to fix it when you ain't reading what I write except to twist it.

Good job trashing the guys thread for ********.