Stick Welder Question

[Doug19]

I'm starting a welding class in the middle of May and have been searching craigslist for a stick welder. Now my question is I see a lot of AC stick welder on craigslist but very few AC/DC stick welders. From some videos and things i've been reading it seems I should be looking for a AC/DC welder. WIll I beable to live with a AC welder without DC? My plan is to get decent at stick welding and then in a year or two get a nice mig welder.

 

[tube_guy]

An AC/DC stick welder is a more useful machine than an AC only stick welder. With AC/DC capability, you'd be able to run a larger variety of rods. DC welding is smoother and generates less weld spatter than AC. With DC, you can also switch electrode polarities to vary the weld penetration as you need it. You can most certainly live with an AC welder, but after you run a DC welder, you probably won't want to run welds with an AC welder again unless you have to. The only time I run AC now is when my workpiece is slightly magnetized and the DC welding is generating some arc blow, or my machine won't generate the necessary current in DC.

 

[GeorgiaHybrid]

Doug,

I'm with tube_guy on this one. Find a nice, used, Lincoln or Miller and you will enjoy it for a long time. There is a reason you see so many used AC only machines for sale. Think about it...

 

[Merkava_4]

Doug, if you're referring to those little stick machines that are called "buzz boxes" or "tombstones," DO NOT BUY THOSE.

I've never needed AC when welding with stick. DC set to reverse polarity is what I like. And if I can get a machine that runs on 3-phase with 3-phase hooked up to it, that's what I'd rather have.

 

[arkangel06]

You will want an AC/DC welder no questions! Buy a nice name brand welder DO NOT cheep out. Ive had only piss poor experences with cheep welders and I would only run AC if I really had to.

 

[Merkava_4]

Just remember though, each type of stick electrode is made to run on certain types of current; some electrodes are made to run on AC only. The Lincoln site has a chart in their consumables section that lists the type of current and its polarity next to each electrode.

 

[speed bump]

For me AC only at home is a bit of pain because AC alot of times is harder to strike an arc with and the welds aren't quite as neat as they are with DC but for 95%+ of what your average person uses them for they are fine. If you can pick one up for cheap (under $100) then go for it if you want one.

If your thinking about getting a mig welder why not just buy one welder and be done with it?

 

[rsanter]

the reason you see so many AC boxes is the difference in price new.
most people bought cheap for home and now there is a glut of these AC boxes around.
with the advent of good home sized/priced MIG welder there are a lots less stick welders sold and lots of people getting rid of old ones.
for general welding work on thicker stuff you could get the AC unit if its a steal of a price but you will prefer the AC/DC unit.
if you could swing the cost I would look at getting a TIG/stick unit because if you do much welding you will want to TIG sooner or later

bob

 

[rhandwor]

It depends where you are going to use the welder. You will need 3 phase power for any AC DC machine I'm aware of but I have a friend who rolls his own 3 phase and has a good welder. He also has a metal lathe and a chop saw purchased used from a company going out of business.

 

[walrus]

I have a cheap Craftsman AC welder and I agree with those that say don't cheap out, its a piece of ****. Can't wait to get a Lincoln or a Miller

 

[brianpgriset]

It depends where you are going to use the welder. You will need 3 phase power for any AC DC machine I'm aware of but I have a friend who rolls his own 3 phase and has a good welder. He also has a metal lathe and a chop saw purchased used from a company going out of business.

Hobart, Lincoln, and Miller all offer AC/DC single phase welding machines. I have a Lincoln AC/DC "Tombstone" sitting in my garage right now.

I think it's worth the extra money, especially if you find a rod you like on DC.

 

[Uncle Buck]

Welding is an area where I know just enough to be dangerous! I do think unless you are starting with a wire feed an AC / DC machine would be much better than straight AC. If you do get an AC/DC I am thinking if you foresee some welding of much heavier steel such as building a car trailer or a log splitter, or anything involving the welding of thicker steel It might be a good idea to hang on to your AC/DC and later get a wire feed with perhaps a capacity of up to say 1/4" thick steel or thereabouts. This would mean you could buy a more modest priced wire feed machine that would cover your needs up to 1/4" thickness, but then for those times you would need the increased capacity you could fall back on your old AC/DC machine.

I think that is good logic, I have an old Lincoln Idealarc AC/DC 350 machine and I figured I could just buy a modest cost/sized machine that would cover 80% of anything I would ever need to do with the old Lincoln around for any really heavy needs.

So am I right here? If I want a wire feed that could weld a 1/2" or more it would cost considerably more to buy a machine that could handle the increased capacity wouldn't it?

 

[Uncle Buck]

It depends where you are going to use the welder. You will need 3 phase power for any AC DC machine I'm aware of

That is not true, my Lincoln 350 AC/DC Idealarc is a single phase machine.

 

[vssjim]

I know one thing Lincoln has sold millions of those 225 amp buzz boxes and I can't even imagine how many good welds have been made with them. Alot of what you need is based on what you are going to use it for. I recommend Lincoln products if for no other reason than their field reps are very helpful no matter how big or small a customer is.

 

[speed bump]

It depends where you are going to use the welder. You will need 3 phase power for any AC DC machine I'm aware of but I have a friend who rolls his own 3 phase and has a good welder. He also has a metal lathe and a chop saw purchased used from a company going out of business.

Nope, heck you can buy 200+ amp single phase DC machines that most people wouldn't know what the hell to do with at home.
examples
http://www.weldingmart.com/Qstore/p000022.htm
http://www.weldingmart.com/Qstore/p000015.htm


Also most MIG welders are DC by the way. So I will again repeat my question why are you buying a cheap stick machine now when you want to buy a MIG later. Buy once and be happy with your glue gun.

 

[Doug19]

Welding is an area where I know just enough to be dangerous! I do think unless you are starting with a wire feed an AC / DC machine would be much better than straight AC. If you do get an AC/DC I am thinking if you foresee some welding of much heavier steel such as building a car trailer or a log splitter, or anything involving the welding of thicker steel It might be a good idea to hang on to your AC/DC and later get a wire feed with perhaps a capacity of up to say 1/4" thick steel or thereabouts. This would mean you could buy a more modest priced wire feed machine that would cover your needs up to 1/4" thickness, but then for those times you would need the increased capacity you could fall back on your old AC/DC machine.

I think that is good logic, I have an old Lincoln Idealarc AC/DC 350 machine and I figured I could just buy a modest cost/sized machine that would cover 80% of anything I would ever need to do with the old Lincoln around for any really heavy needs.

So am I right here? If I want a wire feed that could weld a 1/2" or more it would cost considerably more to buy a machine that could handle the increased capacity wouldn't it?

Uncle Buck this was basically the same thing I was thinking.

 

[Doug19]

Also most MIG welders are DC by the way. So I will again repeat my question why are you buying a cheap stick machine now when you want to buy a MIG later. Buy once and be happy with your glue gun.

I just feel like I should start by learning how to stick weld and go from there. As of right now I have no reason to weld anything. It has just something I have been intrested in and would like to learn. I just want it in my shop to mes around with from time to time and if I like it in 1 or 2 years i'll look into getting a mig or something better.

 

[Doug19]

So what kind of price should I be paying for a used AC/DC welder either Lincoln, Hobart, or Miller?

 

[vssjim]

If I remember correctly a new ac/dc Lincoln welder from Sears is is $550.00ish and the ac only welders were like $280.00ish so go from there on what it looks like, age and what you get with it and how many are around to bargin with. I use Sears prices because they are usually a middle to low priced sales outlet for stuff like this.

 

[Merkava_4]

I just feel like I should start by learning how to stick weld and go from there.

You should learn how to weld with a torch first; that's how I learned. Everything is in slow motion when gas welding and so you can see the fundamentals going on that way. It's harder than stick welding too; so when you do switch to stick welding, it's like going from a manual to an automatic transmission.

 

[GeorgiaHybrid]

Atta boy Merk,

Start with an oxy/fuel setup and add a cutting torch. Learn them well (both cutting and welding) before going to a stick. A good stick welder will always be needed for those times when a MIG or TIG stinger can't fit in a tight spot. An oxy/fuel rig can get to even tighter areas if needed. You can also add a plasma cutter later but a oxy/fuel cutting torch is still an option at times. With some of the items we deal with, pre-heating before welding is best done with oxy/fuel and it is the only option for heat straightening (love a big rosebud).

AWS D1.1 anyone???

 

[Uncle Buck]

AWS D1.1 anyone???[/QUOTE]

Nope, I know American Welding Society, but you will need to fill in the gaps on what the rest means to me.

 

[GeorgiaHybrid]

UB,

The D1.1 covers pre-qualified welding procedures in my field (structural steel). It is the bible of welding that explains all of the can do's and can't do's involving welding. This includes weld preps, thicknesses of material allowed, welding positions, welding types, electrode types, pre-heating required, backing bar or weld procedures, run off tabs, etc.

It can get rather complex in a hurry. Some of the welding the shops that I deal with can get up to 8 or 9 inches thick and take up to 50 or 60 passes on a full penetration weld. Partial pen welds, fillet, ****, plug and seal welds are less complex than the full pen ones but still takes a LOT of skill to pass an ultrasound inspection without any inclusions. It makes me appreciate how bad my welding is watching a real welder work.

They call guys like me a "rod burner".....

 

[Vulturej]

I found this AC/DC arc welder in your area on CL. Thats is a good price.

http://pittsburgh.craigslist.org/tls/1118673878.html

 

[Merkava_4]

I don't recommend learning how to stick weld on a cheap machine. When you're learning how to weld, you want to remove as many variables as you can; and one of them is a poorly operating machine with an unstable arc pattern. If you learn how to weld on a lousy machine, your best welds will only be as good as that machine can put out, and you'll be missing out on what a good weld is suppose to look like.

 

[goodfellow]

I don't recommend learning how to stick weld on a cheap machine. When you're learning how to weld, you want to remove as many variables as you can; and one of them is a poorly operating machine with an unstable arc pattern. If you learn how to weld on a lousy machine, your best welds will only be as good as that machine can put out, and you'll be missing out on what a good weld is suppose to look like.

Hate to disagree with you on this Merk, but I wouldn't call an AC/DC Lincoln Tombstone a "cheap machine", nor the AC/DC Miller Thunderbolt. Those machines are a "staple" in light industrial and farm applications.

More quality frame rails, shop and farm equipment have been built with those machines in the past 40-50 years than with any MIG. For general welding versatility and value, you can't buy a better welding machine than a Lincoln 225 or Miller Thunderbolt (aka Hobart Stickmate).

 

[bayou985]

Doug " Stick " with ac/dc the blue machine is my choice....You can always add tig and mig later...Spend the extra money for good electrodes like Lincoln 5p+ 6010 and Esab [atom arc] 7018 lo-hy...remember cleaning and prep is part of weldin also...

 

[Merkava_4]

Hate to disagree with you on this Merk,

That's alright, I don't expect to please everybody.

 

[a390st]

Those Miller Thunderbolt XL 300/200 AC/DC machines will weld. I have had good luck with them as a light duty machine. I have had Lincoln machines, too, but I liked the Miller a bit better.

Most of the smaller AC/DC welders just run off of 220. You don't have to have 3-phase.

The quality of your electric supply will show in your welding. My former shop was served by a supply that also served the local industrial park. When the metal forge fired up, you might as well quit welding. The voltage was all over the place. The electric company wouldn't do anything about it, either.

 

[goodfellow]

The voltage was all over the place. The electric company wouldn't do anything about it, either.

We used to have the same problem in a shop many years ago. The owner got tired of it and dumped all the newer equipment and purchased 1970's vintage and older DC Generator welding machines (mostly Lincoln and Hobart) Basically a three-phase AC motor driving a DC generator welder.

Those were the smoothest DC welding machines I have ever seen. Everyone liked that old equipment.

 

[a390st]

I can go along with the real dc welders being a lot better than plug in AC/DC models. The welders that run off of a generator are much more consistent than anything that relies on the power company.

 

[Vulturej]

We had problems with the voltage jumping around on the Miller Syncrowave 250 DX we bought last year. It ended up be a grounding problem, we had a earth ground installed in the welding area and the problem went away. The info we received from Miller it is a common problem in large shops and factories.

 

[Merkava_4]

http://millerwelds.com/products/stick/srh/

This is what I'm talking about. I learned to weld with one of these in city college. It had 480V 3-phase input power and the arc output was a smooth stable arc. If I didn't weld right, I couldn't blame it on the machine.

 

[Doug19]

So my welding class has started and right now we are doing stick welding on a Lincoln 185 Stick/Tig machine. Like this http://youngstown.craigslist.org/tls/1161649218.html
Am I better off buying this machine since sooner or later I would like to learn to Tig? Is this a good tig machine. Also what are the chances of myself being able to teach myslef how to tig wled. I was told we will do a little tig welding in the class but not very much.

 

[35mastr]

That is a good machine. I would buy it now. Tig is a little frustrating when you first start to learn it. I still have not masterd it. But I will sooner or later.

After you learn it. You will use it for everything. The welds are nice and small. Usually do not need any type of clean up if done properly. Not to mention that they just look beautiful when done right.

 

[sberry]

An AC machine works, the 7018 AC electrode is what most amateurs would find easiest and get best results with. If you got one or a free one an AC is ok but if there is any intent for equipment repair and you have to buy a unit buy a AC/DC, the Hobart Stickmate wins this, its the cheapest in this class. I used a similar unit to build a trailer for a 30 ft sailboat last week. I welded 7018 about as steady as you can for 2 1/2 hrs, they are a workhorse little unit.
I also have a Miller Maxstar which I was tempted to run side by side on the project but was in a hurry and had to finish. The Max costs 300 more than a Stickmate but is a super unit, great weld, runs excellent on 120V, runs good from cords and a guy doesnt need bunch of extra lead, heavy expensive cord, to make it convenient, 20A service demands, 120/240. Saves a ton of money on wiring and at 13# is very portable.
I have other machines but the red one that sits where it sits is my go to unit after 30 yrs. So cheap and cheap to operate and do a good job.

 

[sberry]

My plan is to get decent at stick welding and then in a year or two get a nice MIG welder.

A Stick machine is a must have for equipment repair shop, if your intent is auto, home, hobby then a "nice MIG" like a Hobart 187 running 030 and C25 is the way to go. If your intent is to "build a few things " then you are a poster child for this type of machine. If you really want to learn welding, if that is the object (and it should be for any young man in the mechanical trades) or if you do machine repair then get a stick. The stick machine gathers dust in most small shops where there is MIG available.

 

[Merkava_4]

Also what are the chances of myself being able to teach myslef how to tig wled. I was told we will do a little tig welding in the class but not very much.

You need to learn how to weld with an oxy-acetylene torch first. You need to learn how to move the torch in a half circle pattern first while adding the filler rod every so often.

When moving from oxy-acetylene to TIG, the TIG will be easier to understand after coming from oxy-acetylene welding.

I'm gonna post a link to a portable machine that I've used in union ironworker's school. It's an inverter based multi-process machine that can do stick (SMAW) as well as TIG and also MIG when coupled with a separate wire feeder. It's an outstanding machine that puts out a very smooth arc.

http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentdatasheet.aspx?p=5384

 

[Vulturej]

So my welding class has started and right now we are doing stick welding on a Lincoln 185 Stick/Tig machine. Like this http://youngstown.craigslist.org/tls/1161649218.html
Am I better off buying this machine since sooner or later I would like to learn to Tig? Is this a good tig machine. Also what are the chances of myself being able to teach myslef how to tig wled. I was told we will do a little tig welding in the class but not very much.

It amazes me when someone is starting out welding everyone recommends machines that cost thousands of dollars. Buy what you can afford, if it's a buzz box buy a name brand and make sure it's AC/DC. The Lincoln 185 Stick/Tig link you posted is a nice machine buy it if you can, you will be able to weld thinner material along with stainless and aluminum with the Tig torch. If your patient you can find decent Mig welders used. If have to settle for a buzz box you can weld with it, it's all in the prep and attention to details. If someone says you can't there full of sh*t, I don't care where they went to school.

 

[vc-onthepc]

i use a dayton ac/dc welder got it for free it was on the curb on throw out day .. made new leads and some electrodes i was in buisiness and have been ever since . also have lincoln 175 entry level mig . and of course i use the mig for everything but when i narrowed the rear in my dads tubbed 79 chevy truck i used the good old dayton to ensure full penetration . it still worrks great !!!!!