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stihl chainsaw update

fordbroncodave

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:mad:

I bought a brand new stihl ms391 back in january 2013 and used it a hand full of times. I noticed after the first time using it, it smoked the bar up and was way to hot to touch. I brought it in and they say nothing was wrong. Well a few months go by and i use it about 5 more times and the problem gets worse and worse. Today i can't even cut wood. It stops cutting and just smokes the bar. Lots of rapid heating is aparent on the bar, chain and inside the cover which has turned brown due to heat.

Bringing it back in for another look. Stihl has yet again failed to answer back to emails
 
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fordbroncodave

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This saw was just under $700 out the door

Dads 320 echo cuts twice as fast and we both bought our saws within a week of eachother. We both cut wood together so the useage is about the same except he is still totally out cutting me
 

turbodave

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Chain too tight? Is it getting oil to the chain?

I've got a Stihl MS290 and its never given me any trouble.
 

larry_g

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Do you have to fill the oil tank every time you fill the fuel tank? On a cold saw can you pull the chain around freely?

lg
no neat sig line
 

mds5951

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I'm confused if it was burning up the first time why didn't you take it back to your dealer? On second thought why don't you still take it back to your dealer?
 

BJ42LX

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Despite Dave's troubles I'm still looking to buy a Stihl.

Do they ever go on sale? Or is it list price, list price, list price?
 
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fordbroncodave

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I watched the whole stihl instructional video on youtube. Chain is set right. It turns freely by hand. Sprocket on the bar turns very easily.
chain is sharp with all stihl brand tools.
the saw is oiling, i can see it spray a line. I have almost used a gallon of stihl brand oil.

Everything checks out until you are cutting wood
 

redwrench60

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Bar isn't oiling or there's no bar oil in the tank. Or the chains tensioned too tight. Flip the saw over and use a flathead to turn the adjustable bar oiler up all the way. It should sling oil off the bar nose at full throttle pointed at the ground. Also get rid of that green label anti kick back sissy chain and get some yellow label RS chisel chain to throw wood chips 20 feet for the win!
 

Dennis93

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Personally, my neighbor bought a Stihl at the same time I bought an Echo (weedeaters), and he had terrible support with his from the dealer. I bought my Echo at HD on sale and never had a problem. I think Stihl is at that point where they have name recognition so their stuff can be still marked high and make some money with low QC. Around here, VA (the Stihl factory is here) even the local landscapers and professional use Husqvarna for their chainsaws and Echo for trimmers/edgers/blowers. Stihl quality has gone the way of **** IMO.
 

mds5951

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Despite Dave's troubles I'm still looking to buy a Stihl.

Do they ever go on sale? Or is it list price, list price, list price?

Very controlled at list...Bought my ms290 at list... And would gladly buy it again at list... Over and over. Sometimes you can get the dealer to throw in some accessories tho (think extra chain, file, bar oil, 2 stroke oil, case)
 

TwoInch

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chain is sharp with all stihl brand tools.


Everything checks out until you are cutting wood

chain sharpness has nothing to do with brand. if you sunk that chain into the dirt once or twice, it might be toast and need sharpening. be very attentive in keeping it from touching dirt, both on the ground, and on logs. wipe/knock as much off any logs you are ready to cut.

dull chains can cause quite an increase in heat generated. it should be throwing nice even chips, not saw dust of any sort. check the raker height if its been sharpened a few times.

there are only a couple things that can cause over heating of a bar and chain, lack of oil, chain tension, pinched/bent bar, and chain being dull. sounds dull to me considering the heat, and that the echo is cutting faster.
 

TwoInch

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Personally, my neighbor bought a Stihl at the same time I bought an Echo (weedeaters), and he had terrible support with his from the dealer. I bought my Echo at HD on sale and never had a problem. I think Stihl is at that point where they have name recognition so their stuff can be still marked high and make some money with low QC. Around here, VA (the Stihl factory is here) even the local landscapers and professional use Husqvarna for their chainsaws and Echo for trimmers/edgers/blowers. Stihl quality has gone the way of **** IMO.

the low end stihl products, like the **** you will get at big box stores is not all that great. the professional and top end saws and tools are still great stuff.
 

TwoInch

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also ford, the chain can be sharp, but improperly sharpened. i have seen some very poorly sharpened chains that over heated and did not throw chip properly. it takes some learning to get sharpening of chains just right.

look for uniform chip size, at all speeds. no dust or small chips.
 

jeremy v

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It is hard knowing what the problem could be without seeing the saw, but you might want to try running it at high speed without cutting anything to see if the chain gets anything more than just warm. If it does there is an oiling issue or the chain is too tight on the bar. If the chain only gets hot when trying to cut I would lean heavily towards an improperly sharpened chain, dull chain, (I don't know if it is possible to do) chain installed backwards, etc.

One thing to check as well would be to run the saw and chain for a few seconds in open air and then stop the chain and pull the chain by hand away from the bar along the bottom of the bar. All parts of the chain that run in the groove of the bar should be visibly wet with oil, if not there is an oiling problem. If the bar oil you are using is not thick and sticky enough for the outdoor temperature you are running the saw in (or if you are trying to just use motor oil), almost all the oil will just flip off the end of the bar instead of staying stuck to the chain as it ideally should. That will cause everything to run hotter. Remember to make sure the small oil passage holes at the end of the bar are kept clear of debris as well, and that the groove in the bar does not become packed full of sawdust. If it is packed full of sawdust in the groove of the bar you may have the wrong chain. The drive links (shark fin shaped protrusions that ride in the bar groove) are there to constantly clean the groove of sawdust and if that is not happening it indicates that they possibly do not extend deep enough into the bar groove to do their job.

On my Stihl chainsaws (MS260Pro and older 031AV) I go through a tank of bar oil about equal with a tank of gas, and if I point the tip of the bar at a light colored surface and spin the chain there is very little visible oil flipping off the end of the chain, it stays stuck to the chain very well.

If your chain chisels are dull, sharpened at the wrong angle, if the rakers are not set properly (even if the chisels are sharp), etc. it will often give the same symptoms as a faulty chain oiler, because the tremendous heat generated from the poor cutting will burn off the bar oil faster than it is replaced. Everything will discolor from the heat and you will lose the factory temper of the chain and bar which will then cause it to dull and wear very quickly from then on. It sounds as if that has already happened, so you are too late for that.

I would guess you are not getting any email replies from Stihl, because they probably get hundreds of emails a day wanting help with symptoms that sound like and are caused by user error 95% of the time and nothing to do with the chainsaw itself. Wrong or not, you have probably been lumped into that category by anyone reading your emails and as a result I can see both sides of that issue.

As a side note, look up some pics online of what chainsaw shavings should look like if the chain is good and sharp, and compare yours to the pics. If your shavings look more like fine circular saw sawdust, or if the shavings themselves are burned or darkened (from heat) your chain itself is not cutting correctly by a large margin. With a freshly sharpened chain, I can get shavings that are each long (1-4") and look just like miniature versions of chisel shavings from a hand chisel or hand plane for a good percentage of the sawdust bulk in wet or dry wood, so that is what you should be aiming for. Good luck, and keep us posted.

And last but not least, even if your chain is getting no oil at all, it will still cut fast if the chain is sharpened and adjusted properly, it will just wear much faster and you risk overheating it easily. If it is not cutting at all, proper chain sharpening is what you need to look into first and foremost.
 
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justanengineer

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also ford, the chain can be sharp, but improperly sharpened. i have seen some very poorly sharpened chains that over heated and did not throw chip properly. it takes some learning to get sharpening of chains just right.

^^^This. My suggestion would be to put on a new fairly aggressive chisel chain and see if you still have problems.

You might also consider taking it to another dealer for a second opinion. Personally, I wont let any of the "outdoor power" stores or mower shops (if they sell mowers, say no!) touch my saw as most never see a real woodsman, just the tree service hackers. Take it to a woodsman's supply or a sawmill.
 

firebox40dash5

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Ask them to take a serious look at the oil pump.

I've got an MS260Pro that's had the same problem since new. It'll look like it pumps oil out of wood, but when you load it up, not so much. I finally figured it out a while back- the poil pump drive was being sketchy. There's a little roll pin in there that holds the adjusting screw in place, and the one on mine doesn't quite hold it tight enough. The result is that the screw backs off about half a mm or less, and bam, no oil pump drive. :(
 

Davefr

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Why are you emailing Stihl? You need to take it to the dealer since it's under warranty.

You pay $tihl prices for this so called local dealer support so use it!! If the dealer can't or won't fix it then ask for a meeting with the Stihl rep and ask for a replacement.

Is the entire length of the bar getting hot or just the portion by the clutch?

Are you sure it's the correct chain type for the bar and tightened properly?

When it cuts are you throwing big chips or sawdust?

Does it consume the correct amount of bar oil as it runs? If it's not using any bar oil then look at the clutch. It has a little notch that turns the oil pump. Sometimes the clutch drum doesn't engage the little oil pump drive spring correctly. This is what it looks like:

Capture.PNG


What kind of bar oil are you using?

If it's hottest by the power head then maybe the chain brake isn't fully disengaged when cutting. That can spread the heat to the bar.
 
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The Ratchet Man

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The fact that you can make an oil line at high throttle means the oil system is working properly. The problem will be either with the bar or the chain. The fact that it over heats when cutting leads me to believe the chain is not properly sharpened.

I agree with the others that said get rid of the safety chain. I have a MS390 and run a Stihl half skip chain when cutting firewood. I've had my saw for 6 years and have not had the first issue with it.

If the chain is not sharpened correctly is can cause excess drag since the chips can't be removed properly to prevent binding. This binding creates heat. This binding also makes your saw do more unnecessary work. Buy a more aggressive chain, not necessarily a half skip, and see if that doesn't correct your problem. It will be properly sharpened out of the box. If the bar has been continuously overheated it might need to be replaced too.

The correct chain for that bar is installed, right?

About discounts, the local Ace Hardware has bag sales where anything you can fit in the bag is 20% off. Power equipment is excluded from the bag sale but has its own 10% discount during the bag sale. Not sure if this is just at my particular store or not but I know other Ace Hardwares also do bag sales. I bought mine during the 10% off and used my Ace rewards card to accumulate points. By the time I got my points coupons I received $93 off the saw.
 
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fordbroncodave

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EVERYONE READ MY POSTS.

I went to the dealer this morning and had a different guy look it over. Same old questions and I told him it will smoke just standing there reving the saw. he tells me "the blade is tough but usable" (yah right, nice selling technique). then says "I don't see anything else wrong otherwise" "chain tension is good" "what are you cutting?" I say 1.5"-8" diameter stuff cutting it 6" off the ground and the saw never comes in contact with weeds or dirt.

this isn't my first chainsaw people, I know to fill it with the proper fuel mixture and keep the reservoir full of bar oil. I disengage the chain brake. everything I have cut has been suspended in some way, when I cut a tree its at least 6" off the ground (because where I am working it doesn't matter what the end result looks like) and if its a larger tree I cut the big sections off and bring the small branches to the pile and burn it.

I bought the stihl brand sharpening blade kit and did everything to the specs of the video.

just to prove a point, I will start the saw cold, not cut anything and just rev it. it will smoke off the bar so hot I cannot touch it. all around the chain guide on the bar it has discolored the metal and turned the inside of the plastic covers brown from heat, not oil
 

RCStocker

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:lol_hitti
:mad:

I bought a brand new stihl ms391 back in january 2013 and used it a hand full of times. I noticed after the first time using it, it smoked the bar up and was way to hot to touch. I brought it in and they say nothing was wrong. Well a few months go by and i use it about 5 more times and the problem gets worse and worse. Today i can't even cut wood. It stops cutting and just smokes the bar. Lots of rapid heating is aparent on the bar, chain and inside the cover which has turned brown due to heat.

Bringing it back in for another look. Stihl has yet again failed to answer back to emails

Stihl makes the best chainsaws in the business. The problem is not with the saw but the operator. Sorry but you either are not getting oil to the chian. Is it an automatic oiler or thumb pump. I think the new ones are all automatic. I have cut a few thousand cords of wook in my day. You might have the chain to tight or not tight enough. If it is not tight the bar can slant up and get the chain mighty tight. Do you have a the roller berrings in the end of the bar?

Try running the saw without the bar. If it runs ok then you know it is something you are doing wrong. I have done a lot of logging in my younger years. I lived in one house that the only heat was a wood buring stove. It was a very cheap way to heat. If you get the right wood burnner it does not burn much wood.

Opperator error if the saw is running fine. You migh have a very dull blade as well. You said it did not cut. There are blind bolts and nails in lunber and trees. Knots will dull your blade. You never want to cut through a knot. If you get your blade down in the dirt that will dull the blade and get dirt into things and make a mess causing the same problem as you describe.
 

redwrench60

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Take a deep breath, we're just trying to help. I know it's frustrating. Have you tried a different chain? Maybe there's something hokey with that one. You say it won't cut wood.
 

The Ratchet Man

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Did you show this smoking to the dealer? If they can't troubleshoot a smoking bar I see why you were trying to contact Stihl...haha.

I ask again though, are you sure that is the correct chain for that bar? I'm still remembering you said you can make an oil line on the ground so I doubt it's an oiling problem.

A buddy of mine is Stihl certified at a certified repair facility. If you can't get it going I'll ask him about it. It ***** to be treated as you have by your dealer. When you buy Stihl you paid to not have to deal with that.
 
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fordbroncodave

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Did you show this smoking to the dealer? If they can't troubleshoot a smoking bar I see why you were trying to contact Stihl...haha.

I ask again though, are you sure that is the correct chain for that bar? I'm still remembering you said you can make an oil line on the ground so I doubt it's an oiling problem.

A buddy of mine is Stihl certified at a certified repair facility. If you can't get it going I'll ask him about it. It ***** to be treated as you have by your dealer. When you buy Stihl you paid to not have to deal with that.

exactly. yes, the service tech said the bar and chain are correct to the saw, that is what came with it. he had the whole bar off and bearing out and looked it all over good.

I paid the price for a good saw and getting terrible service and support for it. this *****. my leaf blower has been trouble free and its well over 10 years old and it is a BR400
 

Davefr

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EVERYONE READ MY POSTS.

just to prove a point, I will start the saw cold, not cut anything and just rev it. it will smoke off the bar so hot I cannot touch it. all around the chain guide on the bar it has discolored the metal and turned the inside of the plastic covers brown from heat, not oil

Did you do this exact demonstration at the dealer?

If the entire circumference of the bar is red hot and smoking then there's simply too much friction between the bar and chain. Either the chain is the wrong type for the bar or there's a problem with either chain or bar.

Have the dealer temporarily swap bar and chain and run your test and see what happens.
 

2oolhound

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The solution should have been so obvious it should have been spotted by now by the tech who serviced it.

Is it the correct bar for the saw? Does the oil hole in the bar line up with the oil pump slot on the saw? Is there a guide for the chain that is fitted upside down? The thin metal guides that fit on each side of the bar (if fitted) have a hole that must line up to the oil hole on the bar.

Is the sprocket nose turning freely and has it been greased?

Have you cleaned the bar groove? It should have NO oil/sawdust gunk at the bottom after cleaning, just a clean metal groove.

Inspect the drive links on the chain. Any burrs or bends will generate friction on the "in" sides of the bar groove. Look for any weird damage to the drive links.

If the bar groove got pinched the heat and discolourment would be localized to the squished area. Otherwise the discolourment would be concentrated where the bar drops into the wood.

What chain oil are you using? The pump will require a specific viscosity to work right. You must use winter or summer depending on the temp of coarse, just sayin...

Maybe there is a piece of sawdust floating in the oil tank and clogging the passage to the pump. It may be worth draining and cleaning the oil tank.

Wood that has been floating in water picks up silt which has very fine sand (as in sand paper) embedded in the bark or checks in the wood. It will eat bars and chains. I've fell trees in areas where the winter run off was 6 -8 ft up the trunk of the trees. Chains lasted 1 day and bars not much more than a week so even though you are cutting off the ground the wood could still be dirty. This however will be obvious by rounded edges on the cutting edge of the teeth.

Your bar likely has a bur along the edges where the chain links ride by now. You will feel it with your thumb when the chain is off so make sure you file it off.
 

mayday0017

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Sounds to me like the guy does a whole lot of cutting with a chain saw.... Makes me think he has all the normal bases covered. I would pick up a new bar and a new chain and give it a go. Then if that fixes the problem I would try to find the actual cause and if it is something that should be covered under defect I would get it replaced by the dealer. If you have the same problem you will have at least narrowed it down a bunch.
 

TwoInch

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^^^This. My suggestion would be to put on a new fairly aggressive chisel chain and see if you still have problems.

You might also consider taking it to another dealer for a second opinion. Personally, I wont let any of the "outdoor power" stores or mower shops (if they sell mowers, say no!) touch my saw as most never see a real woodsman, just the tree service hackers. Take it to a woodsman's supply or a sawmill.

i would suggest against an aggressive chisel chain for someone that is inexperienced with chainsaws. the homeowner type chains are made for a good reason in my eyes.

aggressive chains can be unruly at times, and considerably more dangerous. for someone that is doing work around the house and not felling large trees, the regular style chains cut plenty fast and are still pretty damn safe.
 

TwoInch

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i would just buy a new bar and chain, and strike that one up as a loss. sometimes funky things happen. but i wouldnt continue over heating the cover and sproket if possible until you figure it out.

after seeing that forddave isnt a complete beginner with a chainsaw, stepping up to the next step up in chain aggressiveness might be a good idea.

the only thing that is throwing me off is that you say the saw wont cut well, or even remotely the same speed as the other saw. something is wrong with the chain chisels if thats the case. a saw that isnt oiling will still cut fine as long as the chisels are properly sharp, for a while. i give each chisel a couple strokes nearly every time i pull the saw out to do a job.

try a new bar and chain. if yours are discolored, they are done with anyway.
 

SteveCh

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Especially with a newish saw [and bar and chain], there are simply only a very few things that could be going wrong. Any Stihl shop should be able to figure this out in no time at all. If there is another dealer, take the saw to the other dealer. These saws are very simple. If the chain is the right gauge for the bar, and the bar is a Stihl bar or one that works on Stihls [so the oil port lines up with the oil hole in the bar], and the oil pump is pumping oil, and the chain is tensioned properly, and the bar groove isn't pinching the chain, just about nothing else could be wrong with the saw except either a dulled chain or operator error of some sort.

Seriously, this should be extremely easy to figure out in person. I can understand the frustration, though. I have a number of Stihl saws and have had others. Good products, and even the "homeowner" models work well as long as not abused. I have some Pro models and I also have one really small model [use it for limbing] and while the small one [MS 211] is definitely not of the better construction of the larger, Pro saws, even it runs great and cuts like crazy. I would not want to drop it from four feet up onto a concrete garage floor or anything [I'd be buying some new plastic], but it is a really nice little saw.
 

MrMark

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sounds to me like the bar is tweaked from the heat and causing undo friction. For whatever reason when the bar got hot initially it probably warped it and now you are just fighting a losing battle with these dealers. They should have fitted it with a new bar and chain and checked if the problem went away. Hopefully you didn't do some damage to the drive sprocket bearing too with all the heat and discoloration.

You need to demonstrate the problem to the dealer and get them to replace the bar and chain and check that bearing.

Maybe the brake was sticking or not adjusted right at some point and this started all the problems.
 

The Ratchet Man

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exactly. yes, the service tech said the bar and chain are correct to the saw, that is what came with it. he had the whole bar off and bearing out and looked it all over good.

I paid the price for a good saw and getting terrible service and support for it. this *****. my leaf blower has been trouble free and its well over 10 years old and it is a BR400

Talked to my buddy:

Let me mention that your dealer should be doing this, not you. Here's the procedure he would use anyway if you want to tackle it.

Hold nose 6" from the ground and run at full throttle for 10 seconds. An oil line should appear. This let's you know you are getting oil from the saw all the way to the nose. If no oil then check for blockage in oil tank or misalignment of bar hole to saw hole.

With brake released and saw off move chain back and forth. Chain should move freely with light drag.

To check for proper tension, tighten chain until the link plates touch bar guides on the bottom. Lock in place. Grab chain from the bottom and pull down. The slack should only allow you to see 1/2 to 2/3 of the guide teeth.

Replace bar and chain with either new or known to be good replacements and test for reoccurring symptoms.

He said those 4 steps will rule out 90% of your troubleshooting. He also feels that if you have oil to the nose then something is wrong with the bar and/or chain. As stated before this is how your dealer should handle it but have at it if you feel the dealer is incompetent. You should of bought one from him. The problem would have been remedied at the first complaint. ;)

Please realise that we are troubleshooting over the web. Without being able to see, touch or observe the symptom, the helpfulness of the advice is limited.
 
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pop pop

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Dave you have what I call the typical symptoms of a "warranty" problem. Whether car dealer or tool dealer you get two answers to all questions/problems. 1) They all do that. 2) Can't see a problem here, nothing to fix. So you first need to stop this ****. I've found the quick solution is to say to the dealer "pull two of your new ones out and crank it up and show me they all do this. If not fix the _____ now." That will get you past the BS and have them really diagnose the problem. I've a Sthil also and they are the best I've owned. You have an equipment problem, but a bigger dealer problem. I'm betting you fix the dealer problem, the equipment problem will be easy. If the dealer won't cooperate, call the district manager for Sthil. The dealer will have to give you the information.
 

IHI

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I think I'd just buy a new bar and chain to give that a whirl as it sounds lime you've covered the basics already..grantex your dealer should obviously being doing all this trouble shooting but we all know customer service is very rare these days...give me your money, phu.kyou very much..have a nice day; is becoming the new norm in customer service.

I bought my echo and it came with an 18" bar..ate like a mofo so I upgraded it to a 20" bar and now I really really enjoy it.
 

rustyshakelford

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Make sure it's the right chain. .50 vs .63 makes a huge difference. I'd take the chain off and run it. If it runs fine and doesn't big down than that narrows it to the chain or bar. Next swap out the chain with a new one that matches the bar. It'll be printed on there.

Brett

It might be .050 and .063 actually. We refer to them as 5-0 or 63 so I forget where the decimal goes.
 
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