Stone barn.... Is this realistic?

[wanderer]

I have a set of plans for a barn that I plan to build in about two years. I currently live at the site where I would build and have a lot of the prep work done for this project. The barn itself will be about 5000 ft.².

Right now I’m in the beginning stage of a landscaping project that includes an outdoor patio. I have found a lot of natural stone in the form of an old church which is being torn down about a week. My next-door neighbor is a Stone Mason who is going to be working on the patio project. He’s at the age where he is retired but doesn’t know it yet. His projects are getting smaller and smaller and he only wants to work about a half a day at a time and not in the winter or the summer. This actually works pretty well for me because he has agreed to work at an hourly rate and teach me how to split stone as I am available to help him.

The guy that is tearing down the church is willing to deliver to my property for about 20 bucks a ton, which is about what I pay for gravel in the driveway. It’s crazy cheap actually. All of this stone is very high-quality stone that has been cut and pitched already, so a lot of the work is done.... But I have to commit to it right now.

I can’t escape the idea that I should buy all of the stone from the church and let him deliver it to my property and figure out how to build a stone barn as I have time but I’m nervous this is way too ambitious project for me, and while my neighbor will be a good technical resource I don’t think he will be in any position to do this either. We are headed in to look at the church tomorrow, will chat about it, but he’s more ambitious than he is able and I can’t afford to pay him to do this now anyway.

Does anybody have a clue How much labor would be involved to build this? Looks like around 3000 ft^2 of Stone total.

 

[yeldogt]

So this is a utility building for a current house -- or will this be used for a new living space?


I currently rebuilding a stone building from the 1870's to be my house ... there is nothing more expensive.

To build a new structure it has to be to code and building a stone building is not like the way they did it years ago. Wide foundation of set stone and twin layer of stone above -- read thick. Today -- it's faced. Block or stick ... typically stick for cost.

There are parts of the country where this is appreciated -- Bucks and Chester County PA -- Parts of CT/ MA / NY... Maryland Hunt Country. It still a losing proposition.

Even with free stone -- expensive. Most of the new ones are copies of bank barns that have partial stone walls.

 

[finn]

Dozens, if not hundreds of stone buildings where I live, put up in the mid to late 1800s by skilled stone masons and laborers who emigrated from Europe and found work at a couple of dollars per day. Many of the buildings are considerably larger than what you propose, made of mine rock, a “waste product” extracted from deep underground. All of the houses put up in that era have basements so constructed. Many of the houses were owned by the mining companies, and rented to employees for a dollar per room per month.

I doubt a single stone mason, especially an aging one, could complete such a large building in a reasonable timeframe, though, and he’s not going to be working for pennies per hour.

Sounds expensive. How deep are your pockets?

They look nice, in my opinion, but aren’t too energy efficient. My parents had a house with a stone walk out basement. It was cold in the winter! Many of those old 1800 era houses have had the basement walls spray foamed to improve live ability, at the expense of aesthetics.

 

[NUTTSGT]

A stone shed built into a bank might but awesome but there is no way I would build anything of serious size out of stone.

 

[wanderer]

Dozens, if not hundreds of stone buildings where I live, put up in the mid to late 1800s by skilled stone masons and laborers who emigrated from Europe and found work at a couple of dollars per day. Many of the buildings are considerably larger than what you propose, made of mine rock, a “waste product” extracted from deep underground. All of the houses put up in that era have basements so constructed. Many of the houses were owned by the mining companies, and rented to employees for a dollar per room per month.

I doubt a single stone mason, especially an aging one, could complete such a large building in a reasonable timeframe, though, and he’s not going to be working for pennies per hour.

Sounds expensive. How deep are your pockets?

They look nice, in my opinion, but aren’t too energy efficient. My parents had a house with a stone walk out basement. It was cold in the winter! Many of those old 1800 era houses have had the basement walls spray foamed to improve live ability, at the expense of aesthetics.

I’m certainly not expecting this to be inexpensive. My goal is to build this for about $50 per square foot, so around $250,000 total. It would be used for machinery storage, and we have floated the idea of hosting weddings through the summer season at our Farmstead. Obviously building with stone greatly increases the usefulness for that purpose.

I’m not worried about cooling. I didn’t plan to cool it anyway but my climate means that the mass of stone would be plenty in summer. For winter I would generally heat only when I am out there. This part is troubling though, because I had planned to insulate. I have been researching using rock wool insulation or phone instead of rubble between the inner and outer layers of stone.

I do agree that my mason can’t do this project by himself. I do wonder what would happen if I hired him and a few high school kids for a month or two in the early summer. We have already discussed hourly prices that I consider very reasonable for the patio project and he’s more than open to me working with him on it.

I do plan to talk to him about this a little bit tomorrow when we go to look at the church but I wanted to bounce these ideas with you guys first.

 

[Old Radar]

Might be cheaper and quicker just to buy the church and use it where it still stands!

 

[John in OH]

I know zip about the subject of building a stone building, so I can't help. However, there is a guy in NY state that does a lot of machine shop repairs on antique gas engines. He has an entire website dedicated to documenting his repair work ... with LOTS of pics!!! Really a fun site to waste an afternoon!!

Anyway, somewhere on his site you can see pics of his shop ... he has built his shop within the stone foundation of an old bank barn. The barn is gone, but he installed a roof over the stone foundation, new windows, O/H door, etc. Really a cool looking “stone building” setup!!

http://www.antique-engine.com/shopwork/shopwork01.htm

I have a bank barn on one of my farms, one wall and part of two sides built into a hillside. Before converting this space into a shop, I can think of several issues that would need to be addressed aside from the obvious new windows, doors, electrical, etc ... moisture seeps into the embedded walls via gaps in the old masonry (I'm sure there is no drain tile or footer drains on the embedded wall), and the pressure of the earth against the embedded wall has noticeably bowed the wall inward. On the up side, the area stays reasonably warm even in the coldest weather!!

 

[wanderer]

Might be cheaper and quicker just to buy the church and use it where it still stands!

Unfortunately that is not realistic due to a whole set of socioeconomic conditions.

 

[ard]

I’d take the stone in a heartbeat.

Consider using the stone as a design element in the barn, and perhaps not a ‘complete stone structure’. You could use convention construction techniques around it, and still get the benefits of the stone (aesthetic, thermal mass, etc. I’d get an architect or designer to opine, if this isn’t something you can envision.

As a kid, teenager, I grew up in PA. Our family restored a few old farmhiouses- post and beam, stone. So when I moved to CA and met my future wife, we were on the hunt here for ‘an old farmhouse to restore’. Took me a few months to figure out that “old” in CA was 1940s. And the really old stuff wasn’t built like in PA.

 

[LXCam]

I hope my assumption is wrong but are you wanting to literally do a stone building as in these walls will be structural members or will the stone be used as a facade? If the latter I say go for it. But if you’re wanting to match the construction techniques of old you’re going to be in for a rude awakening if the area you live in is governed by any building codes.

You’re obviously a intelligent guy or you wouldn’t have the means to even consider such a project. but I have to ask have you completed your due diligence with the local building department and an engineer/architect? If not and if you have no concerns about these issues I’d offer this as food for thought.

I’d construct a free standing post and beam roofing structure with a full foundation. Doesn’t matter if it’s wood or red iron. Then infill the walls with the stone.


Ha, my one fingered phone typing skills got beat once again since ard is saying the same thing.

 

[wanderer]

I hope my assumption is wrong but are you wanting to literally do a stone building as in these walls will be structural members or will the stone be used as a facade? If the latter I say go for it. But if you’re wanting to match the construction techniques of old you’re going to be in for a rude awakening if the area you live in is governed by any building codes.

You’re obviously a intelligent guy or you wouldn’t have the means to even consider such a project. but I have to ask have you completed your due diligence with the local building department and an engineer/architect? If not and if you have no concerns about these issues I’d offer this as food for thought.

I’d construct a free standing post and beam roofing structure with a full foundation. Doesn’t matter if it’s wood or red iron. Then infill the walls with the stone.


Ha, my one fingered phone typing skills got beat once again since ard is saying the same thing.

Certainly there is nothing in the building codes to prohibit a stone building. Actually, there are no building codes here at all, and there are stone barns throughout my part of the country. I do have the technical abilities to do this safety, even if I don't have the experience in building with stone.

The real question is how much labor goes into building with stone. I have no idea if this is a 2000 hour project or a 20,000 hour project.

That said, I haven't fully wrapped my head around how I would want to build it. I've always loved stone, and this mason has been doing projects here for me for a while. It's expensive here, about $400 per ton for good stone, so finding this at $20/ton delivered is incredible! It would be worth buying just for landscaping projects I have.

One option is to only make the side facing the road stone, another is to put a full stone facade on it (although much of this stone is quite large for a facade), but I was asking about building a stone barn, with conventional techniques. I love stone and would love to reuse part of this building.

Check it out:

 

[NUTTSGT]

I’m certainly not expecting this to be inexpensive. My goal is to build this for about $50 per square foot, so around $250,000 total. It would be used for machinery storage, and we have floated the idea of hosting weddings through the summer season at our Farmstead. Obviously building with stone greatly increases the usefulness for that purpose.

If you have that large of a budget and are entertaining the thought of hosting weddings, build a proper structure for that and use it as you see fit.

Use the stone to build landscaping walls, steps, patios and other features (like water falls) that will knock it out of the park for wedding backgrounds and photographs.

 

[yeldogt]

It's amazing that there is no market for that material .....

Building with sone is bull work .... it gets heavy fast. You can't move many of those blocks w/o equipment .. even the small ones.

And trying to use untrained kids is asking for trouble ... what about insurance?

Building with stone gets very difficult .. real fast above 5' Around me you need engineering studies to build any self standing stone building.

Also -- look into what is now required to have a building on your property used for a wedding ... if you are being paid.

I just went though a stick built barn/garage and it was 100sf for the 1700sf structure = plus 30k for foundation/slab/ design and permit

 

[JimNC]

Wonder if you would want to build stone up to about 4’ plus around the doors and windows, then a wood structure on top.

It’s a shame that building is coming down.

 

[yeldogt]

It’s a shame that building is coming down.

I agree ....

I'm currently rebuilding a small church ... it's a size suitable for a single residence. Typically -- they are build very well with high quality materials.

The OP is showing ... a big one. I have seen a few well done larger church conversions .. they become condos. But, it takes just the correct building ..and it has to be in an area able to support what ends up being expensive space.

Some cities have tried to preserve them in hopes there will be a movement -- but ..so far they are not being done in numbers.

So many empty churches in the cities.

 

[wanderer]

Chances are the church is coming down for a gentrification project. It’s in a single-family neighborhood but a very very poor one right next to some pretty expensive real estate. Looks like the structure is in poor condition anyway but knowing the area it’s easy to see why nobody would be interested in it where it is currently at.

 

[kbs2244]

A guy around here built a stone, castle style, home.
He needed iron work for the structural code, even though the stone was 24 inches thick.

This was residential code, not "out building," but it would be something you need to check out.

 

[matt_i]

I think there are a couple of key points.

Its going to need a very serious footing to handle all of the concentrated weight.

You are going to need some kind of machinery to handle stones of that size.

I think it would be amazing but it would take years and years to finish because of all of the precision rigging and setting.

I like the idea posted by JimNC where you would build the stone wainscot and then something else up from there. I think it would still be pretty amazing and you could insulate it better.

If doing events it might be nice to have something like a freestanding stone fireplace or a stone arch, where people could take pictures. Those could be smaller and be solid-stone.

 

[finn]

I’m no expert, but I would expect $150-$200/sf is more realistic.

Look at Iron Trap garage on YouTube. Matt has a stone shop in Boyerstown, Pa, where he build traditional hot rods. The opening scene pans the inside of the back wall of the shop.

 

[carnutdallas]

I think there are a couple of key points.

Its going to need a very serious footing to handle all of the concentrated weight.

You are going to need some kind of machinery to handle stones of that size.

I think it would be amazing but it would take years and years to finish because of all of the precision rigging and setting.

I like the idea posted by JimNC where you would build the stone wainscot and then something else up from there. I think it would still be pretty amazing and you could insulate it better.

If doing events it might be nice to have something like a freestanding stone fireplace or a stone arch, where people could take pictures. Those could be smaller and be solid-stone.

Best advice. Well said.

I would buy it all, use it around the house for projects, landscape, etc. maybe build one or two walls with it and then create architectural elements on new building for photos and design aesthetic. Looking forward to pictorial updates


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[Hilltopmasonry]

A ton of stone is not very much so at $20 a ton for delivery it’s going to get extremely expensive for a building and others have said it is going to be a very long process to build a stone building

That Stone is huge! there’s no way a retired Mason and you are going to be able to handle a project like that
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[4xdog]

Some friends of mine in the West Country of England (Wiltshire) have a couple of *terrific* stone garages. They're built for the long term. We have some of our forum friends from the UK, and almost certainly some stone garages that have been rebuilt or worked on. I'll bet they'll come in on this thread at some point.

I had a chance to take a few pix a couple of years ago, including of some new construction going on just outside their village. Maybe a few ideas for ya.

The one they rent a few doors away in the background here is amazing. Seriously solid. Surprisingly dry and damp-free.

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-9H5KnDw/0/3a15b932/X5/i-9H5KnDw-X5.jpg

Here's the one behind their house (a different garage from above). It's strong, too, although a little smaller and kind of tight inside (when used by packrats).

 

[Bert_]

Everybody talking about stone for 5 feet high than building on top of that is not going to look that great in my opinion. A better option would be to build the entire front wall out of stone. The other three walls could be framed more conventionally.

 

[Sevenhills1952]

Such a shame that's being torn down. Hope they salvage all the stained glass.
If you have the means and space and estimate cost of getting it to your place I would certainly do that.
At least then you have it.
Even something like a stone wall out of it would be beautiful at your place.

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[Kevin54]

Not to rain on your parade, and I'd love to have that stone myself for landscaping or pillars, but I hope you realize that with the size of that stone, you're not going to get very many pieces for $20. That bill will climb real fast. Just by looking at this pic, if the ledge of the opening is 4' high, just those few stones the same height on the support column will be close to a ton or a little more.

When they are delivered, you better have a large area to stage them from and have an adequate area for the trucks coming and going to dump them, because they will be rolling in with the large truck with the multiple cheater axles. One of the big trucks IIRC can haul around 25 tons. So if that's the case, each load will cost you around $500. And from the looks of the size of the church....you will have a lot of loads.

If you build a 5000 sq.ft. building, you will have to have an engineered footing to be able to hold the weight of all of the stone, then you'll either have to rent or buy equipment just to manhandle the stones.

Then you have to factor in your retired stone mason. Are you going to be the only one helping him, or will he have to get an extra hand? What happens if he gets hurt, or just decides to throw in the towel after a few weeks?

$20/ton sounds cheap. That's the first thing you looked at, but when you factor in all of the extras.....I'd say that a 5000 sq.ft. barn built out of that stone, will run you well over $250,000 and closer to $500,000+.

 

[yeldogt]

Everybody talking about stone for 5 feet high than building on top of that is not going to look that great in my opinion. A better option would be to build the entire front wall out of stone. The other three walls could be framed more conventionally.

The 5' I mentioned was for lifting .... once over 5' the amount of equipment needed increases -- as does the danger. It was not the eventual wall height

My current building is 30x50 .. just fixing parts of it = 80k.

There is 12 acres of land that touches my property --- it's been owned by a local builder for almost 25 years. He recently constructed two "barns" on the property for his two kids. He was smart because he divided the land before the 10 acre minimum was enacted plus he built the septic .. all grandfathered. He took down two barns from central PA and has held onto the material and timber frame. It's been cool to watch -- basically the frame goes up and then it's SIP and stick. The stone is real .. but faced. He was the one who told me about the current codes and cost to build full stone walls ... I see now why it never done anymore. It's more than 2x the cost of face.

 

[4xdog]

Here's some modern construction going in near my friends in Wiltshire (UK). Stone facing on laid block with exterior insulation. Block thinner than what we usually use here. Quite nice combination, it seems.

 

[Sevenhills1952]

It certainly wouldn't hurt to get an estimate of cost, you said $20/ton they guy tearing it down should be able to give an approximation of total cost.
What state or area is this located?
It's a shame to see something like that hauled to a landfill.
When I started a business in 70s it was downtown in a 38k sq ft building that was featured in the cities calender one month. It had amazing history, cannon balls made for Civil War, a plumbing supply house, lots of businesses...then they tore it down in 1982. I'm sure the city wishes they had it back today.

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[firebirdparts]

I would certainly buy it. I love stone. If you build a huge garage this stone is only going to get you part way up, but that actually looks pretty good.

 

[yeldogt]

4xdog .. That's how we do it .... the stone may be a bit thicker. For a residence it's normally insulated on the inside.

Chester county PA has the same green type of stone -- fantastic looking.

The OP stone is huge and thick .. whole different construction .... would make a great retaining wall.

 

[dutchgray]

Here's some modern construction going in near my friends in Wiltshire (UK). Stone facing on laid block with exterior insulation. Block thinner than what we usually use here. Quite nice combination, it seems.

That is mostly reclaimed Shaftesbury green stone and must be pretty close to me, as all the quarries it ever came out of are within 15 miles of where I live. There are only two quarries you can get if from now and its expensive. Its a very soft and abrasive sand stone that unusually has no grain to it, so you can lay it in any orientation.
Who ever is laying it isn't any good though.
The internal blocks are the insulation type, they are soft and full of air bubbles, if you chuck one in water it will float.

 

[Chaz]

A stone barn? ................Never. You'd have to be crazy!

 

[ZRX61]

Looking at the size of those stones, $20/ton is going to be $20/stone.

 

[driftpin]

There are a lot of Adirondack buildings built in stone, the architect I recall using the style was Richardson. I believe much of that stone was stone left-behind by the receding glaciers. You might want to research that style, to see if you could adapt the style to your project. The accumulation of stone deposits from glaciers is called a drumlin. Eskers and moraines are other glacier-caused forms of rock accumulation. All could be sources of stone for something like this, previously, or now.

https://nsidc.org/cryosphere/glaciers/gallery/drumlins.html

https://nsidc.org/cryosphere/glaciers/gallery/moraines.html

https://nsidc.org/cryosphere/glaciers/gallery/moraines.html

http://geo.msu.edu/extra/geogmich/eskers.html

http://www.landforms.eu/cairngorms/esker.htm

https://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/yaddo-restoration
https://www.lakestolocks.org/content/h-h-richardson-an-albany-architecture-tour/ltl052bda4bb7ea3ab58

 

[4xdog]

That is mostly reclaimed Shaftesbury green stone and must be pretty close to me, as all the quarries it ever came out of are within 15 miles of where I live. There are only two quarries you can get if from now and its expensive. Its a very soft and abrasive sand stone that unusually has no grain to it, so you can lay it in any orientation.
Who ever is laying it isn't any good though.
The internal blocks are the insulation type, they are soft and full of air bubbles, if you chuck one in water it will float.

Those photos were taken in Mere, Wiltshire -- in the county's southwest near the Somerset and Dorset borders.

Are you in Shaftesbury, dutchgray? I have a good friend who's a long time resident there, an archaeologist who could probably have taught me a lot about the local stones if we'd talked about that as we've toured sites in the area.

 

[kaiser715]

Is the stone going to be carefully dismantled, loaded without damage, maybe palletized, and unloaded and stacked?

Or is the wall going to be knocked down with an excavator, loaded into dump trucks using the hydraulic thumb, then dumped in one big unsorted pile?

First way will yield usable stone.

Second will leave you with more fill quality rock than you think.

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[budget76]

Is the stone going to be carefully dismantled, loaded without damage, maybe palletized, and unloaded and stacked?

Or is the wall going to be knocked down with an excavator, loaded into dump trucks using the hydraulic thumb, then dumped in one big unsorted pile?

First way will yield usable stone.

Second will leave you with more fill quality rock than you think.

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this was my thought too. Nice rectangles become mangled ovals that don't stack

 

[coldh2o]

Is the stone going to be carefully dismantled, loaded without damage, maybe palletized, and unloaded and stacked?

Or is the wall going to be knocked down with an excavator, loaded into dump trucks using the hydraulic thumb, then dumped in one big unsorted pile?

First way will yield usable stone.

Second will leave you with more fill quality rock than you think.

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This is what I was wondering. Can't imagine it will be option one for $20/ton.

 

[dutchgray]

Those photos were taken in Mere, Wiltshire -- in the county's southwest near the Somerset and Dorset borders.

Are you in Shaftesbury, dutchgray? I have a good friend who's a long time resident there, an archaeologist who could probably have taught me a lot about the local stones if we'd talked about that as we've toured sites in the area.

I am in Gillingham, Mere is the next town north and Shaftesbury the next south, have never lived more than 15 miles away from where I am now, one of my grandfathers was from Mere and my mother's family were in Shaftesbury from the 1850's

 

[bdk1976]

Looking at the size of those stones, $20/ton is going to be $20/stone.

This. Sounds like the sellers are basically looking for a way to have a sucker pay them to dispose of the stone rather than have to pay to get rid of it otherwise.

The reason it costs so much in general is transportation/handling costs - it's not like stone is rare, it just costs a lot to move the finished product.

I can't even imagine the work involved with building a structure with used stone that size, but best of luck to OP in his decision!