Stone driveway...need some input

[5Cent]

OK guys, this warm snap has me looking foward to spring and I want to get everything in line to revamp/face lift our 5yr old stone driveway.

Here's a picture of what I'm dealing with:

When looking at the picture, I have water running down the right hand side of the home (low area where lot meets adjoining wooded area) and then runs across the driveway about 1/2 to road (where picture taker is standing). On the far left is a drainage creek.

What I would like to do:

1.) Put in some type of diagnal tileage to allow the water to cross the driveway w/o displacing the new stone. This would allow it to get to the creek easily.

2.) Add 3-4" of new stone to driveway.

3.) Maybe add some type of edge to the driveway to hold the stone from moving to far into the yard. I don't want railroad ties, and I have thought about treated 4x4's, but after a few years they start looking pretty rough. I may end up just adding some top soil to each side, slightly sloping into the yard and reseeding it.

4.) What size stone do you all recommend? I'm located in OH, so I believe it's going to be limestone.

 

[5Cent]

OK, gonna go with #57 stone, I will get my driveway dimensions to figure out tonnage needed.

 

[krusty the clown]

without seeing the lay of the land and how the water runs, it's hard to give advise. but have you considered a ditch along both sides of the drive?

 

[5Cent]

Krusty, did you have a chance to check out the picture, maybe the link doesn't work?

I might not have explained it enough, but looking at the picture (as if you're the picture taker), the water will run from right to left. From the wood line across the driveway into the yard on the left. On the far left (out of picture is a creek). I will get some pictures from the garage opening into the yard and out to the road.

I don't want to put a drainage area on either side of the driveway. I would like to keep the "natural" boundary on the right hand side (again you're looking at the house from the road,as in the picture) against the woods. I will probably add some top soil to that side (mainly where the big round rock sits at the base of that tree) of the drive to help the water run across the driveway. That tree is no longer there as the water pooled, saturated the soil and during one of the big blows around X-Mas the whole root ball came up.

 

[JD in DFW]

I would do a french drain on the side and across the drive where the water runs off. For the drive I would do a crushed granite or crushed limestone base and then top it off with a larger gravel, 1/2" to 3/4 aggregate or limestone. As for the edges, if you do a small retaining wall or line the sides with some 4"-6" chopped limestone, they look kinda like large limestone bricks. You can put in a footer and mortar them in or use a crushed limestone mix for and do kind of the same thing in a natural way, but could be washed out if alot of water was to flow in the area.

I used to own a stone yard and a couple of quaries, so I know alittle about stone stuff. Good luck with you project.
JD

 

[5Cent]

I would do a french drain on the side and across the drive where the water runs off. For the drive I would do a crushed granite or crushed limestone base and then top it off with a larger gravel, 1/2" to 3/4 aggregate or limestone. As for the edges, if you do a small retaining wall or line the sides with some 4"-6" chopped limestone, they look kinda like large limestone bricks. You can put in a footer and mortar them in or use a crushed limestone mix for and do kind of the same thing in a natural way, but could be washed out if alot of water was to flow in the area.

I used to own a stone yard and a couple of quaries, so I know alittle about stone stuff. Good luck with you project.
JD

JD, good advice. Which side would you recommend the french drain? On the right side of the drive? I can't go too deep there as the utilites run that side of the driveway.


I'm starting to think about putting pavors along the left side of the drive, and then carrying them into the edge of the landscaping. I don't know how that would look, having one continuous run of pavers as an edge from the driveway along the front of the home to edge the landscaping.

This would then act as a small retaining wall for the left side of the drive. This would "hold" the stone and allow the water to run out and dribble into the yard w/o creating any major "washes".

 

[JD in DFW]

Do the French drain on the side with the runoff is the most, and then under the area of the driveway where you have runoff. Have the utility company come out to mark the areas where the lines run if you aren't sure, you don't want to find them with the end of a shovel. From the looks of your drive you have somewhat of a grade on the drive going away from the house. The French drains can have a gradual degree of drop and still not have to be placed real deep. I have duel French drains in one of my rental houses that goes from the back yard out to the street, maybe 200' total and my drop in grade is maybe 4"-6" and when it rains my backyard is free of water in minutes after a Texas gully-washer that we have at times here.

If paver's is the look you want that would do fine as long as the ones along the drive were the bigger ones. I just like the look and feel of natural stone, and with all the trees you have there it would be a shame to incorporate manufactured cement paver's into your landscape. Price it out both ways, I know on may projects we were on, natural stone was more cost effective then the Pavestone product and in many cases it looked much better. In a commercial application Pavestone looks alright, in a natural residential setting like yours natural stone would be a home run in my eyes...just my .02.

What part of the country are you in?

 

[Monte406SS]

If the right side is your high side, have the french drain on that side. If you end up with some sort of edge of driveway (paver), the top will be a few inches higher than the driveway. Maybe you can tweak the grade enough from the house down for a natural swale to collect any runoff and use a plastic inlet at the low end (basically where you are standing taking this photo). This can then discharge under the driveway to the left side. Add some larger stone at the outfall end to eliminate future erosion and you should be good to go.

 

[5Cent]

OK guys, keep the opinions coming!

JD I'm in north central Ohio. I too agree that the natural stone would look better. I have to decide if I want a semipermanent edge to the drive or not. I think it would definitely take away from the "natural" look of the home, but I also want to have a stable driveway. I don't mind picking up the rake once a week, but every time it rains is a little much.

I finally registered on photobucket, so the following pictures are from today. I knew with the amount of snow that we've had, and all the local flooding, I would be in for a treat when I got home. Well....it's alittle more than expected as the right side of the lot now has a running stream on it,lol. Plus....the crawlspace is still dry as a bone and the streams are moving full speed. Tommorow will be the real test with the strong T-Storms and wind moving in.

Anyhow, below are some different angles and what I'm dealing with. I would say that this is as bad as it will get talking to the neighbor. He's been here for 20 years and has never seen this amout of water.

 

[Bigger Hammer]

If I were in your shoes, I'd build myself a shallow catch basin to place on the right side of the drive (looking from the road) and bury a 4 or 6 pipe/culvert across the low spot in your drive where the water is sitting/running across. The basin and pipe really only need to be deep enough so that you can cover the entire pipe with stone and get across the drive to daylight some place lower than the pipe invert at the basin. The deeper the pipe gets the further you will have to run.

I would be concerned with all those trees and placing a french drain unless what I'm thinking of a french drain is different that what you guys are talking about.

 

[5Cent]

If I were in your shoes, I'd build myself a shallow catch basin to place on the right side of the drive (looking from the road) and bury a 4 or 6 pipe/culvert across the low spot in your drive where the water is sitting/running across. The basin and pipe really only need to be deep enough so that you can cover the entire pipe with stone and get across the drive to daylight some place lower than the pipe invert at the basin. The deeper the pipe gets the further you will have to run.

I would be concerned with all those trees and placing a french drain unless what I'm thinking of a french drain is different that what you guys are talking about.

Yep, there's going to be a big hairy mess on the right hand side if I go any decent depth with roots/utilite lines. With the method you described, the 4 or 6 pipe that crosses the driveway will be exposed on the left side correct? I am looking to not have any pipes showing, so I think it would have to be run to the existing tile in that side of the yard, or directly to the creek correct? You can see the access part of the tile in the 2nd to last picture. The previous owner installed this black tile, running parallel with the creek, then eventually dumping into it towards the rear of the property to help drain that flood area there. It does a decent job of drying up quickly with the amount of water that we've had in the last 5 months. Time will tell on how it dries out this time.

 

[Mezzanine]

It looks to me that you do not have enough elevation changes anywhere close by to route your runoff water to- Making a drain would be great if you had a place to run the water to. I would suggest trenching in a small-ish culvert pipe at the lowest point, setting it as low as possible (considering your utilities), and then filling a new driveway over the top. Basically you need to bring the driveway up out of the low spot, and provide a passage for water to pass from one side to the other. Two or three loads of gravel, and a small loader will get the job done in a few hours. Rent a roller once the whole thing is spread and you are back in business.


C

 

[usa#1]

I used 3-1/2 x 1/4 flat steel in 40' lengths to make a border for a gravel drive. It is easy to bow into curves for that taylored look. I used landscape metal edging stakes driven on the inside and outside to hold it into position and then wire welded the stakes to the steel. The joints in the metal were also wire welded together to form a continuous border. With the 1/4" steel you can drive across with a tractor, mower, etc without bending it. The gravel stays put and no worrys about wood rot.


Edit. After thinking about it, the steel thickness must have been 1/8" or 3/16" as 1/4" sounds a bit thick.

 

[mrsleeve]

Ok using these 2 pics for my reference this is how I would fix the issue with a real french drain and a leaching basin.

starting at the wood pile near on the left in the top pic I have quoted I would dig a trench across the drive in the center of the low point in the drive way to about the middle of that low spot on the right of the lower pic. I would be 3-4 feet wide and about 4-5 feet deep. Do the same thing along the edge of the drive way that collects the most water for about 10 feet in both directions. SO you have a T shaped trench's in the above dimensions. Then 8-12 inches of clean washed 6a stone in the bottom (you can put some 4" sock pipe in the bottom but its not necessary for this app). Over the stone put a layer of filter fabric (not anything you get at lowes) you may have to call around a few industrial supply houses to find it. Filter fabric is a heavy felt like fabric they use in road construction.

Now that you have you ditches an stone all fabricated in, is time to fill the trenches with a good clean class 2 back fill sand (no rocks over 1/2 inch in class 2). Put it in lifts of about 18 inches an packed in tight with a plate compactor several times. This is why you need the fabric, other wise all your sand will wash into the gaps in the stone an slow the flow through you french drain. fill up flush with the existing ground and let it sit for a couple of good rains and drive on it a for week to get the very very best compaction.

Ok over to the leaching basin my self would get a 4 foot x 5 foot tall basin in precast concrete (or what ever the precast company has laying around out back) its full of roughly 1/2 round holes) dig this into that low spot. dig the hole at least 18 inches deeper than the basin is tall+ lid + casting should add up to top of stone to existing grade. fill the bottom with some more 6a stone set the basin fill around it with more 6a stone. Your french drain should end right at the edge of the hole for you basin. set the lid on the basin and mud the catch basin casting onto the top of it at existing surface grade to pull off surface run off. Regrade the surrounding land and from the drive way to run off to the basin, Put some top soil back on your sandy areas, Seed and straw bing bang boom all done. A good ground contractor should be able to do all this before lunch and if they have a good "Hoe Pack" you wont have to wait for the settlement in the drive area.

Now back to the drive it self 6-8 inches of 21a or 21aa road gravel with a slight crown to it and you will never have to worry about any of this stuff again. It will look natural (think dirt road) will hold up to lots of abuse and dose not creep too bad other than in the early spring when the frost is still in the ground an the water has no where to go and sits on top an gets all mushy.


this is my 2 cents form a former pipe layer/ road builder for 12 years in southern lower MI. I just got out of that business a year ago so I know a bit about how to make water go where I want it to go.

grade for basin a bit simpiler
bottom of hole = height of basin(B)+ thickness of lid(L) + casting height(CH)+ 18inces of stone
common EG. B72"' +L6" + CH12"+18"stone = 108" or 9 feet to bottom of hole
so top of stone to existing grade should be 90" or 7'6"

hope this helps, its not the cheapest way to do it but it will fix the issues and give a place for all the water to sit under ground and soak away with out a swampy yard, allowing you to use it more of the year and have a good drive way to serve you for many, many years.

 

[boiler7904]

Ideally a ditch on the utility side of your drive would connect to a culvert under the driveway. Sounds like the utilities are too close to make that feasible.

How about a 8 or 12" diameter culvert across the driveway at the natural lowspot where you already have water ponding. You could dig down a little to bury the pipe and then regrade the drive to raise it a little - act like a dam to keep the surface stone from washing out. Connect the creek side end of the culvert to plastic drain tile and run it close to the creek. On the utility side of the drive, a series of catch basins and drain tile would connect to the culvert.

As far as edging goes, I would get granite or limestone cobbles and set them in a mortar bed on both sides of the drive. A 6-8' wide row of stone will hold the driveway no problem. Set the stone on the high side of the drive a couple of inches higher than the gravel. Set the stone on the low side about even with the gravel.

As far as the type of stone for the drive, I'd do a 3/4"- crusher run as the base. Dig out any potholes before you start rebuilding the drive and fill them with the same crusher run gravel. Rent a vibratory drum compactor to get the entire driveway good and solid.

Macadam would look nice and would probably last longer than loose stone as the surface. Macadam is basically the base gravel coated with with road tar / oil and then a decorative stone chip compacted into the oil. The downside to this is that you would have to hire it out unless you have access to a lot of oil.

 

[mrsleeve]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What utilities dose he have to worry about, I see phone/cable nothing to be scared of, and buried power is the one to worry about but in the pic in the 1st post i looks like there is a power pole behind the silver chevy but in the last pics there is a conduit running down the pole at the road. Hes on LP so there is no gas feed to the house. Judging by how rural he is I kinda doubt there is pressure sewer or a city water service to worry about. Even so a quick call the the state utility locating agency will have some one out to stake all that out in about a week, an bit of time with a shovel and some care to find them all before the power equipment comes in. You can work around them and put them right back in the ditch with all your drain materials. I have done it 1000's of times.

 

[5Cent]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What utilities dose he have to worry about, I see phone/cable nothing to be scared of, and buried power is the one to worry about but in the pic in the 1st post i looks like there is a power pole behind the silver chevy but in the last pics there is a conduit running down the pole at the road. Hes on LP so there is no gas feed to the house. Judging by how rural he is I kinda doubt there is pressure sewer or a city water service to worry about. Even so a quick call the the state utility locating agency will have some one out to stake all that out in about a week, an bit of time with a shovel and some care to find them all before the power equipment comes in. You can work around them and put them right back in the ditch with all your drain materials. I have done it 1000's of times.

Utilites would be the power that runs along side of the drive from the pole by the road (thats a tree behind silver chevy). Also would be water, phone, and cable, but I just don't want mess with the power conduit at all. Whatever route we choose to go, I will definitely get the utility companies to mark everything

You guys have given me great ideas I do appreciate it. I will update this thread when the work starts and look foward to putting in some new stone

 

[mrsleeve]

Power will just be buried heavy 3 wire cable it wont hurt it one bit to dig around it, move it, work around it, long as you dont nick the jacket all the way through. i have done it many many times. should be about 18-24 inches down water will be at least 4 feet but more like 5. Tv/ Phone are nothing hard to fix all you need is a splice kit sold at the hard wear store if you do happen to cut it.

 

[jmariola]

If North Central Ohio is Like North East Ohio find a ditch and run the pipe to it. To much clay here to leach water into the ground. Top dress that drive with 617 limestone and pack it down, it will set up like concrete. I top dress my drive every five to six years and it's still cheaper than asphalt and concrete. To many heavy trucks delivering toys here.

 

[5Cent]

If North Central Ohio is Like North East Ohio find a ditch and run the pipe to it. To much clay here to leach water into the ground. Top dress that drive with 617 limestone and pack it down, it will set up like concrete. I top dress my drive every five to six years and it's still cheaper than asphalt and concrete. To many heavy trucks delivering toys here.

Welcome to the board Jim. It's good to see more guys from Ohio on here.

The drive already has a good base to it, so I will be just top dressing it with some new stone. I'm not sure what's beneith the top soil in the around the area, but I have quit a bit of rock from where I've dug some things already. Hopefully the limestone shelf stops north of the new home, b/c at the old place (Castalia) it was solid 3" down!

 

[5Cent]

Wanted to bring this post back from the dead. After looking at multiple options over the years, I made the move to pour concrete this past fall.

Before:

Prep:

Pour 1:

Final:

With the great advice in this thread I have also added a french drain on the RH side that is about 90% complete. I need to get some pictures and get them uploaded. Heading out to see how everything is working since we're currently under a flood warning with this system that moved in Friday. Thanks guys, love this site!

 

[bazzateer]

Looks good. Did you run a culvert under the concrete?

 

[kelpaso1]

Wanted to bring this post back from the dead. After looking at multiple options over the years, I made the move to pour concrete this past fall.

Before:

Prep:

Pour 1:

Final:

With the great advice in this thread I have also added a french drain on the RH side that is about 90% complete. I need to get some pictures and get them uploaded. Heading out to see how everything is working since we're currently under a flood warning with this system that moved in Friday. Thanks guys, love this site!

What are you going to do about the water runoff on the right side of the garage/house? The land to the right is about a foot higher than the house/garage and driveway, and the water in this area will run straight into the house then down the driveway and ruin the bottom of the walls. Who ever designed this house should have made the house/foundation about 2 feet higher. Just common sense by looking at the pics.

 

[brownbagg]

damn that looks good, but that tree going die, if it doesn't bust the concrete first

 

[kelpaso1]

damn that looks good, but that tree going die, if it doesn't bust the concrete first

And yes why did you leave that tree there?? Looks odd jutting into the driveway and blocking the view of the house.

 

[theoldwizard1]

With the great advice in this thread I have also added a french drain on the RH side that is about 90% complete.

Very smart ! I was concerned how high the RH side was, but with a proper french drain, you should not have any problems.

 

[Burl]

If you top it with limestone, when it is wet you will track it into your garage, which will create a mess, and yes it does set up like concrete, and can get dusty when it is dry. Think about slag, which packs equally well and is not messy.

 

[lorne]

How many people have backed into that tree?

 

[JimVonBaden]

How many people have backed into that tree?

Looking at the original photo, I am guessing none:

I would be concerned about the roots eventually cracking the driveway more.

Jim

 

[5Cent]

Thank you for the comments and thoughts. This is our first home and we are working on a limited budget. There were two main reasons with moving forward with the driveway this past fall. The main one was to have a dry, safe area for our boys to play in. Second was to add another selling feature/increase home value.

1. No culvert under the driveway. I had 8 different contractors/cement companies out and all were confident the water could be kept to the RH side. If anything, a little will trickle through the 57 base to the LH side yard.

2. All the water is being handled on the RH side of the drive and house. The swale has been pushed into the woods. We are owners #3 of the home, and there has never been a water issue in the poured crawlspace. #1 owner bought property and completed the foundation. Not sure why they sold to owner #2. Owner #2 finished the build and had it for 5yrs (2008) and then sold it to my wife and I. They were a retired couple and this 1.5 acres in the woods was more than they could keep up with. I do need to continue to work my way back towards the back end of the property but life is busy. I am only 30yrs. old, with a 24 month old and an 8 month old, which leaves little play room outside of work

Right now, the side yard only gets wet when we have a substantial downpour or quick snow melt off. This past Saturday we had 4" of snow melt with 2.85" of rain in the course of about 12hrs. That amount of water was the same that we saw a in 2009 then again last year with Hurricane Sandy, and the driveway and French drain handled it great. In total, I brought in 9 tons of cleaned 57's and completed the job by hand. Got a kick out of the truck driver - "That will keep ya busy for a while, as I see no power equipment around"!

3. Last remaining piece of the puzzle is dirt. I decided to allow the house and yard to "settle" as much as possible before tackling this. Now that the house is 10yrs old, it is time to bring in dirt and fade the LH side to the creek and finish with some big stone on the bank. I want to start on the LH side to get support on the new driveway and not have a 12" drop off. After the front yard is done, I will work on the back and RH side of the house. In total, the entire back and RH side of the house needs 6-8" and faded towards the woods.

Hurricane Sandy - 2012

Done until spring 2014

My wife and I both liked the tree for some reason. We are not concerned with blocking the front of the house, we actually want more seclusion from the road. I wanted to actually do asphalt instead of concrete to add some contrast and keep it as natural as possible, but concrete was cheaper this fall. I know I run the risk of the tree getting large enough to crack the concrete but that is a few years off. In the end, I will most likely drop it and do a chainsaw carving of some sort. When I am not spending time with my family or working, I am in the woods hunting or fishing. The outdoors is a huge part of our family and we just like the tree and will be adding some more on the front, LH side of the drive by the water main access. I have a blue spruce lined up right now, but won't be moving forward with planting it until spring. No accidents with the tree in the last 5 years!

 

[Autorotica]

Why not just bend the driveway to go around the tree?

Chris

 

[5Cent]

Why not just bend the driveway to go around the tree?

Chris

Wanted the width out of the initial pour. Easier to go back, drop tree, cut out base, and fill in with Crete when the time comes. If I bent around it, then the next pour would have been the entire lengthof the drive.

RH french drain & side dress - Dec 2013

Drive complete - April 2014

Now I just need to bring in a lot of dirt and start blending the yard to the creek and plant last years Father's Day gift, a blue spruce to put in front of the water meter access. The idea with the stone is to add side support and drainage for the drive. The topsoil line will come up to about 6" from the LH edge of the drive.