Stooge's Longer term car projects, Part 2

[Stooge]

I figured after my other longer term projects thread getting nuked https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=221885 with the photobucket fiasco and my not wanting to go back and fix all of the broken links, I would start a new one for the new cars that I am starting.
-my c10 is on the road, a few little things to iron out here and there, but its drivable and I wanted a break from it for a bit.
-the GTO metal work is mostly done and body work has been started on it, just need the owner to decide on a few things and if he wants me to fix the door bottoms and a few spots on the floor under the seats.

Among a few smaller projects right now, the main ones are going to be my personal project 1937 Buick Century coupe, that was completely blown apart, missing all of the interior and driveline, but the body is in pretty good shape, had a Massachusetts title and was cheap! The other is a good friend's 1958 Edsel Villager station wagon, that we flew out to Conrad, Iowa in September to truck back home. Its pretty complete, but the engine is junk, and while the majority of the body is good, theres still a fair amount of rust and rot throughout. It's going to be his family hauler and a marketing piece for his dog walking business in Boston, (think Dog- Waggin' )

Some pictures to get started

the truck and its homemade interior, mostly from scrap industrial shelving that was being tossed out at work.
2017-11-27_10-06-29 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

20150524_095212 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

2017-11-27_10-28-12 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

The Edsel loaded onto the trailer out in Conrad, Iowa before driving 29hrs straight back to its new home in Massachusetts
Saturday Afternoon-

2017-09-11_08-50-33 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

Sunday Evening-

2017-11-27_10-51-19 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

2017-11-27_10-09-46 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

Some evidence of why it's getting a new engine

2017-10-16_01-34-27 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

And my Buick being pulled out from its barn in upstate New York, 126" wheelbase, 16ft body without bumpers and sits about 6ft tall without the engine and trans in it. we rented a 12ft trailer to haul it back and had literal inches of clearance driving the 6hrs back....in the pouring rain...in the pitch black of driving through the mountains....2 days after getting back from the 29hr Iowa drive.

20170906_150216 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

20170906_150307 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

Loaded onto the trailer in New York without much room for error.

20170906_155630 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

it's completely blown apart, but whoever took it all apart, obsessively bagged and tagged everything down to individual screws for door trim and wheel cylinder components.

20170907_095527 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

I have hundreds of these envelopes and bags of labeled parts.
20170907_124742 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

And waiting its turn while I make room for it in the shop

2017-11-27_10-22-36 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

I've been starting to accumulate some parts for it, mainly the correct engine/ wrong year Buick 320ci Straight 8. although it will not be a faithful restoration, I wanted to use a straight 8 rather than throwing a nailhead of some other v8 in there.
46" long, 3ft from pan to air cleaner, and around 850'ish pounds. next to a 327 small block chevy for comparison

2017-11-27_10-46-13 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

2017-11-07_02-09-23 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

 

[Stooge]

sort of an update! Honestly haven't really been driving the truck that much, I did adjust the rear link bars as I had a driveline vibration under heavier acceleration, and took it for a spin yesterday and seems to be fixed although I might get a double cardan joint driveshafts made at some point before the spring as well as changing the steering column linkage a bit, not really necessary but will be nicer to drive.

We pulled the 361 edsel engine out of the station wagon, and it is getting replaced with a 460 big block ford and a c6 transmission. Progress might be slow on that for a bit since he just had another kid this last week and its outside and its winter here, but starting to plan the swap and acquire some parts. im single and live alone, so it was a real lesson in trying not to swear in front of his children...while working on pulling a rusty old engine out of a rusty old car in the cold.

2017-11-27_11-17-03 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

20171203_134804 by Dan Haas, on Flickr


Plans for the Buick are a little loose right now, but im looking at doing either 4 SU side draft carbs, or possibly multiple strombergs, and a sweeping header . If I can find the very specific transmission for the 37,38 buick big engines, (the 320ci got a 6 bolt top cover transmission that was more stout where as the smaller engine cars have a 5 bolt top)I will go with that and will not have to replace the closed driveshaft and rearend. im sort of leaning towards adapting a 4 speed to it to have a little more fun with it, but that will require a new rearend as the stock one only accepts a closed driveshaft. i'll probably lower it a hair but I want to wait to have the weight of the engine and trans in there before changing any of that. it will have a mostly stock steering and suspension but might get an aftermarket steering box and column but that is mostly because the stock ones seem hard to get ahold of. The body is in pretty good shape, and sheet metal work will mostly be the door bottoms and door sills along with the floor area behind where the seats would meet the trunk divider.

20171128_201024 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

20171128_201038 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

20180113_120845 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

20180113_143119 by Dan Haas, on Flickr


Notice the size of the folding chair near the back tire


20180113_144959 by Dan Haas, on Flickr


And some gratuitous c10 pictures


2017-11-27_10-06-29 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

2017-11-27_10-07-39 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

20180114_110927 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

20180114_120305 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

 

[kbs2244]

That Buick just has gangster movie written all over it.

 

[Stooge]

That Buick just has gangster movie written all over it.

Exactly! In my head, the theme keeps coming back to wanting to feel like an old timey cartoon villian!

 

[dlcwent]

Stooge, just want to say glad to see your thread back up.

 

[Stooge]

thanks! I was starting to go back and try and fix some of the original thread and just continue using that one, but it was to much of a hassle so I quit after the first page or so

Put in an order to Lehigh Valley abrasives yesterday to stock up, and i'll probably start sanding down the body this week and pull the doors off to start making new lower skins. theres not a whole lot of curve in the doors compared to some other late 30's stuff I've worked on so it should be too bad.
Really going to try harder to have a plan and not skip around with this car as much as I did with the truck, having to go back a year or 2 later and finish something you thought you remembered finishing is a nuisance. there wont be a lot of body modifications, although I do have to make some running boards, so im optimistically hoping I can have atleast some of it painted this year.

 

[BMW Rider]

My Buddy's paint shop where I just had my 79 Mustang done now has a 40 Caddy in to rebuild. It looks a lot like the Buick and was shockingly large. I'm no expert on that era of cars, but it looks like they might share some parts. My car was dwarfed by the old Caddy.

 

[yaidunno]

Great collection of vehicles! I can't get over how long the nose is on the Buick! That will look great once its back down to ride height or lower.

 

[Stooge]

My Buddy's paint shop where I just had my 79 Mustang done now has a 40 Caddy in to rebuild. It looks a lot like the Buick and was shockingly large. I'm no expert on that era of cars, but it looks like they might share some parts. My car was dwarfed by the old Caddy.

Great collection of vehicles! I can't get over how long the nose is on the Buick! That will look great once its back down to ride height or lower.

I believe in this era, the Lasalle and Buick century either had the exact same body, or very close, and both were denoted as being Series 60's, but with different engines. Supposedly, the factory dual carb buicks around 41, were starting to encroach on Cadillac sales so the buick was pushed back to single carb. Also, supposedly the name Century came from it clocking over 100mph back in 1937 partly thanks to the rear gearing. I'd like to keep the rear end, but finding the correct transmission that I can afford could be an issue.

For some size reference, from cowl to grill, is 6ft, the headlights are just about 20" long and the tires are 8-20 15's so about 30" tall. Now the 46" long, 850lb 320ci straight 8 engine makes a little more sense!

 

[Greeny]

Those cars are deceiving. They always seem to appear as a smallish car when seen alone, but still surprise me with their size when viewed with anything nearby for comparison.

Love the dash work you did on the C10! Looking forward to more of your work.

Also--any worries over that HF jack in post #2 being dangerously overloaded?

 

[matt_i]

That Straight-8 is someting special. That combo manifold looks just like my Farmall tractors except twice as big I am sure they were just after some off-idle torque...I wouldn't think the valvetrain and bottom end to be good for very much rpm. Probably if you could adapt a small cap HEI distributor to it (thinking about what might be in the C10) it would run forever without trouble.

You're a true friend helping pull a motor in the great outdoors in January!

Great projects, I really enjoyed the last thread.

 

[Stooge]

Those cars are deceiving. They always seem to appear as a smallish car when seen alone, but still surprise me with their size when viewed with anything nearby for comparison.

Love the dash work you did on the C10! Looking forward to more of your work.

Also--any worries over that HF jack in post #2 being dangerously overloaded?

Don't you see the beagle supervising and making sure we were following safety protocol??
I did have to catch myself a few times and remind his son to be careful around some stuff for safety. im not around young children often, and his son talks like a little adult so I kept forgetting he was only 8 when I would be asking him to grab me stuff or hold something. there was a whole lot of biting my tongue to keep from swearing infront of the kids though!

Until it actually made its way into the shop and I could see how much space it took up, noticed the regular sized folding chair next to it and could kind of compare it to the '37 Plymouth coupe that's also in the shop, the size of the buick really hadn't sunken in yet!
And thank you, I have a hard time being happy and satisfied with my cobbling together of stuff, but the truck interior is something I am really happy with!

That Straight-8 is someting special. That combo manifold looks just like my Farmall tractors except twice as big I am sure they were just after some off-idle torque...I wouldn't think the valvetrain and bottom end to be good for very much rpm. Probably if you could adapt a small cap HEI distributor to it (thinking about what might be in the C10) it would run forever without trouble.
You're a true friend helping pull a motor in the great outdoors in January!

Great projects, I really enjoyed the last thread.

Either a great friend or just stupid! for not having been on the road since the late 60's, it really wasn't too bad, there were very few stuck bolts, and at some point, a previous owner slathered thick grease all over everything to keep it from rusting. good for the bolts, but was a little tiring having chunks of it constantly falling on your face and making its way down your shirt. Next is going to be figuring out how to shoehorn a 7.5l big block in there....for a station wagon to carry dogs

im a little undecided on the straight 8, there are a few options for distributors to make it a little more contemporary, the front runner is http://performancedistributors.com/product/buick-straight-8-dui-distributor/ but not a lot of people out there using them to get much feedback. on the other hand, I want to keep it an old car and fairly traditional, and stuff like New old stock Mallory dual points pop up for the same price https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Mallor...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649 and its back to trying to make a decision and I decide to just work on the body for a bit! .
there are a few places that will regrind the cam, but it was a smooth running engine so I don't want to go too far into it, so I will have the cam sent out at some point, clean and regasket everything, replace any worn out parts and keep it fairly simple. like you mentioned, the supposed killer of these engines is revving them up a bit, suggested is to keep it under 4500-5k, since the crank will start to wobble since it is so long. trying to decide on 4 side draft carbs and follow kind of a pre war euro/ Brooklands race car aesthetic or cobble something together to run a few Stromberg 97's.

the c10 is just a warmed up 350, aftermarket heads and cam, holley carb and msd hei running dual pipes with Porter steel packs. its a little rowdy and loud, but is a fun cruiser.

20161001_160819 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

Thanks for following along with the other thread, I really appreciate it! Hopefully I can keep this one interesting!

 

[xtremek]

I happen to know where there's an abandoned Edsel wagon slowly returning to iron ore, if your friend is interested. Anyway, looking forward to following this thread.

 

[matt_i]

like you mentioned, the supposed killer of these engines is revving them up a bit, suggested is to keep it under 4500-5k, since the crank will start to wobble since it is so long

The 4500-5000 sounds a bit extreme to me, I took a look at the valvetrain on the Edsel for example and it looks just a sliver more robust than my old tractors which max out around 2000 rpms...most people know what a 350 v8 stamped rocker arm looks like, I'd advise sizing that up for heft as an example of what the valvetrain on a 5000 rpm motor looks like.

The old racing trick is to jump up the valve spring pressure to keep all of the moving mass of lifter/pushrod/rocker/valve together and not being launched into separation under higher speeds, but its directionally wrong for the exhaust valve recessing into the head and faster wear on the rest of the parts.

The other issue is that even though you have 8 cylinders there's not necessarily 9 main bearings. There might only be 5 mains which leaves the crank hanging out across 2 cylinders. Also in the tractors' lower end, 3 mains in a 4 cyl. Take a look at it and you're like WHAT???

Sorry to pollute your thread with all of these opinion but I spent about 4 years of my life working on pushrod valvetrains for the GM 3800 V6.

In any case, again cool motor, I'm interested to see how it goes!

 

[fallous]

The other issue is that even though you have 8 cylinders there's not necessarily 9 main bearings. There might only be 5 mains which leaves the crank hanging out across 2 cylinders. Also in the tractors' lower end, 3 mains in a 4 cyl. Take a look at it and you're like WHAT???

Or opening up an early Ford Falcon I6 and seeing 4 main bearings instead of 7.

It would be fun to see that Buick straight 8 with 8 mikuni sidedraft carbs on it. Webers would be more period-correct but Mikunis with mechanical slides better-looking IMO as well as being much more affordable.

 

[Stooge]

The 4500-5000 sounds a bit extreme to me, I took a look at the valvetrain on the Edsel for example and it looks just a sliver more robust than my old tractors which max out around 2000 rpms...most people know what a 350 v8 stamped rocker arm looks like, I'd advise sizing that up for heft as an example of what the valvetrain on a 5000 rpm motor looks like.

The old racing trick is to jump up the valve spring pressure to keep all of the moving mass of lifter/pushrod/rocker/valve together and not being launched into separation under higher speeds, but its directionally wrong for the exhaust valve recessing into the head and faster wear on the rest of the parts.

The other issue is that even though you have 8 cylinders there's not necessarily 9 main bearings. There might only be 5 mains which leaves the crank hanging out across 2 cylinders. Also in the tractors' lower end, 3 mains in a 4 cyl. Take a look at it and you're like WHAT???

Sorry to pollute your thread with all of these opinion but I spent about 4 years of my life working on pushrod valvetrains for the GM 3800 V6.

In any case, again cool motor, I'm interested to see how it goes!

Don't worry about polluting here! I like the chatter to learn and bounce ideas off of!

The 45-5000rpm was more where the crank, (44" long and 116lbs according to a few buick spec sites) is rumored to start to wobble and break apart, mid 3000 is max driving range I believe, but I would imagine driving around would be considerably lower than that. The crankshaft bearings, there are 5, are something im a little curious about on this engine. its out of a 1947 roadmaster, which is the mid-year they changed from babbited style bearings to more contemporary inserts.
im not sure of what the rocker arms are constructed out of as I haven't really pulled anything apart yet, they appear cast steel, but there were years when some of the bracketry was made from aluminum for noise and smoothness.

I loved those 3800 engines and I was a big fan of the full sized 90s gm cars and had atleast 4 of them! my oldsmobile 88 with the supercharger was driving around on a big peppy velour couch! ....although the body roll was ridiculous!

2018-01-22_07-23-49 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

Or opening up an early Ford Falcon I6 and seeing 4 main bearings instead of 7.

It would be fun to see that Buick straight 8 with 8 mikuni sidedraft carbs on it. Webers would be more period-correct but Mikunis with mechanical slides better-looking IMO as well as being much more affordable.

Cool that this prompted your first post!

More leaning towards 4 carbs on individual runners with some sort of equalizer tube connecting them, as there are 4 intake ports on the head and I still need to fit 8 exhaust tubes without having it be too cluttered. I think Howards and a few others made up to 6 carb intakes but, but supposedly drivability wasn't that great and Im already looking forward to hating life trying to tune 4 carbs! Mikunis have popped up as a possibility, as have Dellortos, webers, single rochesters, holley 94's and a bunch of others, but its going to come down to what I can fit with having it look right, (needs to look cool!)what fits the budget and can get parts for, and most importantly what will work right and will be the most efficient/ forgiving. Really, im shooting for some amalgamation between these styles, 4 side drafts or 4 down drafts with a sweeping header. Sort of a traditional hot rod, but with a hint of Brooklands/ edwardian era race car if that makes sense!

IMG_1681_thumb_JPG_2d9044b7396122db7f6bf3ffab285f06

DSC_0612

A little weekend progress, first I had to make a step stool platform so I could work on this thing. im 6'1" and even with this 16" tall platform, I can barely reach the mid point of the roof! I was happy to see I could still weld the thicker stuff, as I don't think I've welded anything other than sheetmetal in a year or 2! some old rectangular tubing and a scrap piece heavy duty industrial shelving with a support brace that was getting tossed at work. im around 220lbs and standing and moving around on it, doesn't budge or bow at all so it should be fine for my purposes and can double as a table.

20180119_192604 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

20180119_192613 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

I miscalculated by about a 1/4" so it doesn't slide under the car to keep it out of the way, but its small enough, (3' x 2') to not have take up too much floor space.

20180119_192755 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

And started the long job of clearing off 81yrs of crust! Its really solid overall, the bottom 6" or so of the doors will get replaced along with about the same on the body before and after the doors, but the fenders and hood are good. I would like to find some seats to use so I can plan the floor repairs accordingly. Im imagining I will be moving them back from where they would be stock so I can comfortably sit, and I would hate to repair them back using the stock floor as a template, just to have to cut it apart to fit the new seats. Floors are in pretty good shape, its just the area behind the seat to where the trunk divider would be that needs work. there were some brazing repairs done in the trunk at some point, but it seems to have been done well and is holding up so I may just clean it up a bit and leave it be.

IMG_20180121_153318_810 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

IMG_20180121_153318_811 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

i'll probably pull the driver side door off this week so I can start making the replacement skin piece for the door bottom. im not sure how the inner structure is, but I guess i'll find out! it looks to have a lot less curve than the '37 panel truck I made door skins for, as well as being in a lot better shape so it should be a little simpler.

from a few years ago, a buddy's 37 chevy panel truck, a bit more experience and a few more tools now, so it shouldn't be too bad

IMG_20130915_153450_456_zpsd0ad042b by Dan Haas, on Flickr

IMG_20130928_183811_418_zps5b46155a by Dan Haas, on Flickr

IMG_20131106_195841_645_zps7a43a92e by Dan Haas, on Flickr

IMG_20131102_165539_921_zpse501bbfe by Dan Haas, on Flickr

 

[fallous]

More leaning towards 4 carbs on individual runners with some sort of equalizer tube connecting them, as there are 4 intake ports on the head and I still need to fit 8 exhaust tubes without having it be too cluttered. I think Howards and a few others made up to 6 carb intakes but, but supposedly drivability wasn't that great and Im already looking forward to hating life trying to tune 4 carbs! Mikunis have popped up as a possibility, as have Dellortos, webers, single rochesters, holley 94's and a bunch of others, but its going to come down to what I can fit with having it look right, (needs to look cool!)what fits the budget and can get parts for, and most importantly what will work right and will be the most efficient/ forgiving. Really, im shooting for some amalgamation between these styles, 4 side drafts or 4 down drafts with a sweeping header. Sort of a traditional hot rod, but with a hint of Brooklands/ edwardian era race car if that makes sense!

IMG_1681_thumb_JPG_2d9044b7396122db7f6bf3ffab285f06

DSC_0612

If you're looking at Dellortos you might also consider Keihin carbs off of a Honda motorcycle. The mechanical Keihins are near-replicas of the classic Dellorto but can be found for peanuts compared to buying Dellorto, and as an added bonus finding parts is ****-simple. The nice thing about either of those carbs is the cable-pull throttle vs mechanical linkage so you'd have a lot of flexibility regarding mounting, which may be welcome given the swept exhaust idea.

 

[Stooge]

If you're looking at Dellortos you might also consider Keihin carbs off of a Honda motorcycle. The mechanical Keihins are near-replicas of the classic Dellorto but can be found for peanuts compared to buying Dellorto, and as an added bonus finding parts is ****-simple. The nice thing about either of those carbs is the cable-pull throttle vs mechanical linkage so you'd have a lot of flexibility regarding mounting, which may be welcome given the swept exhaust idea.

Well damnit, here I had thought I had sort of had it narrowed down, then you post this and I spend the rest of the day with no less than 8 tabs open trying to learn and compare about European/ Honda/ motorcycle, motorsports carbs! I really like the looks of the Side draft and motorcycle carbs, and especially the price. even NEW and with the exchange rate, acceptable sized Dellorto carbs, ( I had sort of dismissed the car ones due to their size and price) can be had for considerably less than what I was expecting to pay for Strombergs or SU's.
Sounds like a constant velocity style carb for a larger displacement bike engine (900cc+ according to others who have used them on 8cylinder car engines, with 38mm + venturi) would be where I would want to start looking, for both being able to idle correctly and not have it bog down under acceleration since they don't seem to have accelerator pumps, but butterfly slides forward and back per vacuum?
The research continues, but I guess im going to have to figure it out sometime soon so I can atleast get an idea of how everything is going to fit together! thanks for the tips!

 

[fallous]

Well damnit, here I had thought I had sort of had it narrowed down, then you post this and I spend the rest of the day with no less than 8 tabs open trying to learn and compare about European/ Honda/ motorcycle, motorsports carbs! I really like the looks of the Side draft and motorcycle carbs, and especially the price. even NEW and with the exchange rate, acceptable sized Dellorto carbs, ( I had sort of dismissed the car ones due to their size and price) can be had for considerably less than what I was expecting to pay for Strombergs or SU's.
Sounds like a constant velocity style carb for a larger displacement bike engine (900cc+ according to others who have used them on 8cylinder car engines, with 38mm + venturi) would be where I would want to start looking, for both being able to idle correctly and not have it bog down under acceleration since they don't seem to have accelerator pumps, but butterfly slides forward and back per vacuum?
The research continues, but I guess im going to have to figure it out sometime soon so I can atleast get an idea of how everything is going to fit together! thanks for the tips!

CV carbs are definitely easier to set up but the vacuum hats take up space and they lack the classic look of mechanical slide carbs. Most race bikes (that still use carbs) stick with the mechanical slides because the throttle response is faster, more predictable, and tuneable but obviously a race engine has entirely different expectations than a street engine, and vice versa.

In a CV carb the airflow is controlled by throttle butterflies, but the venturi is variable (it moves a barrel up and down which also carries the main jet needle) based on vacuum so it's essentially self-correcting to meter the air/fuel mix. In a mechanical slide carb there are no butterflies but instead the throttle is attached to the barrel and at the bottom of the barrel is a blade to control airflow, and the main jet is attached to the bottom of the barrel/blade. When you twist the throttle, the barrel/blade/jet move up which opens the venturi, allows in air, and moves the jet upwards adding fuel to the air stream.

A CV (constant velocity) carb is trying to always keep the same velocity of air flowing through the system based on the throttle position. A mechanical slide carb lacks that feedback loop so it's possible to quickly wide-open throttle an engine and stall the air, which would result in no fuel being delivered.

 

[Ohmthis]

That straight 8 will look great in there. I prefer unique ccombinations to standard sbc/ th300 setups. I have considered using motorcycle carbs before, but always thought they wouldn't be able to supply enough for a 8 cylinder engine. If there are 4 carbs on a 1000 cc engine, then in my clueless thinking, you'd need 20 for a 5.0 (5000 cc) engine. I know this is far from correct, but hopefully you can see what I mean. Where did you find the info on using the correct size carbs? That is going to be a very nice project.

 

[fallous]

That straight 8 will look great in there. I prefer unique ccombinations to standard sbc/ th300 setups. I have considered using motorcycle carbs before, but always thought they wouldn't be able to supply enough for a 8 cylinder engine. If there are 4 carbs on a 1000 cc engine, then in my clueless thinking, you'd need 20 for a 5.0 (5000 cc) engine. I know this is far from correct, but hopefully you can see what I mean. Where did you find the info on using the correct size carbs? That is going to be a very nice project.

That 1000cc engine is probably turning 3x the RPM at max horsepower that your 5.0 V8 will manage. Additionally, the venturi size of a 38mm Mikuni (when fully open under load) is larger than the venturi area of a single port on most of the Holley carbs you'll find, so it's mostly a matter of jetting.

 

[Stooge]

That straight 8 will look great in there. I prefer unique ccombinations to standard sbc/ th300 setups. I have considered using motorcycle carbs before, but always thought they wouldn't be able to supply enough for a 8 cylinder engine. If there are 4 carbs on a 1000 cc engine, then in my clueless thinking, you'd need 20 for a 5.0 (5000 cc) engine. I know this is far from correct, but hopefully you can see what I mean. Where did you find the info on using the correct size carbs? That is going to be a very nice project.

Thank you! already, in just the infancy planning stages of this car and what I want out of it, has me thinking in a lot of different areas that hadn't really crossed my mind on previous cars, so its already fun and exciting!

As far as any 'knowledge' of what sizing for motorcycle carbs, there isn't any I don't know anything about motorcycle carbs I had originally been planning on running side draft carbs completely based off of a look I liked and aesthetic I was looking for, and went from there, found a few flavors and started to narrow down what seemed to work for people. that's why I was originally planning on 4 SU HS6 or HS4, like those that are used on old Jaguars and other British cars, and still am leaning that way or Stromberg 97's. Neither of those carbs are terribly expensive on their own in relation to a standard 4barrel carb, but when you need to buy 4 of them, cobble together a reliable linkage and fuel system, it starts to get a little spendy I don't mind spending some money, but this is just a hobby project that still needs alot of other odds and ends to be bought and unfortunately im not infinitely, (or even a little bit ) wealthy!
Fallous brought up the use of motorcycle carbs, and gave me just enough info on them and their prices to get me interested and start researching those. i figured if I was planning on SU HS6's, (1 3/4" carb) or HS4's (1 1/2" carb) that those approximately the same as a 38mm motorcycle carb, but their behavior is different, and that's where im at now, and what Fallous's last post regarding the differences between cv and mechanical slides was about. While price is something to think about, above that, I am after some well performing, easy to tune, forgiving and proven carbs that will also look the part. Unfortunately, but also fortunately, there isn't a lot of specific info, past the anecdotal, on what I am after, so its exciting but I also don't want to throw money at something that I will be fighting.

the SU carb sizing displacement chart I was originally basing a few guesses off of

SU_vs_disp by Dan Haas, on Flickr

 

[fallous]

The stock 40mm CV carb on an 88ci Harley will happily feed 80+ horsepower to a two-cylinder engine that is probably still revving to at least 1.5x the RPM you'd want to wind that inline-8. In my experience the Mikuni 38mm is comparable to the 40mm stock Harley, but you can get them up to 48mm I believe. Tuning a rack of 4 CV carbs is pretty easy compared to multi-carb setups on cars, especially if you're having to deal with progressive linkages and the like. First you bench-balance them by setting the idle throttle blades for all the carbs to be open the same amount with a feeler gauge. Install carbs, hook up a vacuum gauge (or preferably a carb sync tool that lets you see all 4 at once) and adjust to get them all balanced.

 

[Stooge]

Ahhh, I get it now, I had misread a previous post when you were comparing the cv to mechanical slides pertaining to air stall and fuel starvation, and thought after talking about the pros of the cv style, reiterated by saying they stall, etc. Im willing to make aesthetic concessions for efficiency, tunabilty, price etc, that sounds like I would gain with the CV style carb. thanks for the suggestions, it seems like the Mikunis, Keihins, and even the Harley carbs are all pretty affordable and seem to have a good aftermarket for parts.

From some searching, it sounds like there are a good amount of people using 4 of the 38-40mm cv carbs on their cars, but seem to be popular on smaller displacement, higher reving engines. Going to have to do a lot more research, specifically about them on larger displacement scenarios, but its definitely something to think about. thank you for your input, its something I really hadn't considered before, but its damn intriguing!

 

[kbs2244]

My only experience with CV carbs is on two 850CC original Morris Mini's
I think they were SU's
Very smooth off the line in a engine designed to rev.

The CV idea is little understood in the US.
I know I had to watch it slide in and out a few times before I understood what was going on.

 

[fallous]

Ahhh, I get it now, I had misread a previous post when you were comparing the cv to mechanical slides pertaining to air stall and fuel starvation, and thought after talking about the pros of the cv style, reiterated by saying they stall, etc. Im willing to make aesthetic concessions for efficiency, tunabilty, price etc, that sounds like I would gain with the CV style carb. thanks for the suggestions, it seems like the Mikunis, Keihins, and even the Harley carbs are all pretty affordable and seem to have a good aftermarket for parts.

From some searching, it sounds like there are a good amount of people using 4 of the 38-40mm cv carbs on their cars, but seem to be popular on smaller displacement, higher reving engines. Going to have to do a lot more research, specifically about them on larger displacement scenarios, but its definitely something to think about. thank you for your input, its something I really hadn't considered before, but its damn intriguing!

A Harley uses a single 40mm CV for 88 cubic inches, so 4 of those would easily feed 352 cubes. Harleys generally rev much lower than inline-four sport bikes, usually topping out at 6500 or below (like most V8 engines).

High-revving sport bikes will often use 4 carbs that are each nearly as large as the single Harley carb even though the displacement of the sport bike engine is smaller than a 88ci v-twin. There are a few reasons for that, one being that those engines will rev to 15K RPM and so require nearly 3x the air of a Harley.

Your 320 inline-8 running at 4000 RPM would require at best 370 CFM of air (assuming 100% volumetric efficiency). This is the same as a 1400cc (85ci) bike engine hitting 15K RPM, and I guarantee that bike would actually demand more air in the real world since its VE would be much higher than ye olde Buick. I also guarantee the carbs on that 1400cc bike are capable of supporting far more CFM demand than the bike requires.

 

[Stooge]

It was finally time to stop procrastinating over the weekend, and start digging into the buick a bit. The majority of the body is in great shape, theres a few inches on the door bottoms that is fairly rotten, but the rest of the doors are great, the corners of the door sill frame needs some attention, and a decent section of the floor behind the seats will need to be replaced. I don't think theres much out there for replacement patch panels for these cars, but I also didn't really look too much, so I got a sheet of 18ga and went to work. Surprisingly, the door hinges unbolted easy enough, not sure if they've ever been removed before, but they didn't put up too much of a fight.

20180209_184905 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

20180209_184835 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

I don't really have much for equipment and tooling, just some assorted hammers, dollies and bits and bobs that I've acquired when I see something that looks like I can hammer over it, so its probably taking a bit longer than someone with planishing hammers and an English wheel.
After probably 2 hours of messing around starting from a flat piece I had cut out with a cutting wheel, I had a rough form. I only had to cut it down length wise by a few inches, as the doors are pushing 4ft wide. There isn't a lot to the outer skin, but there is a slight horizontal crown in the door that follows into the door bottom curve. I straightened it out a bit more after this picture but im pretty happy with it so far.

You can sort of see the raised crown in the center

20180210_131625 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

And just cleco'd in so I could scribe out the cut line. Admittedly, I was a little leary of making the first cuts in this car, but has to be done!

20180210_132307 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

20180210_132901 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

The plan is, get the lower door rot cut out, and possibly temporarily tack in the new piece with just a handful of tack welds, just enough so I can keep a better idea of the dimensions I need to make the inner door structure as there really isn't much to work with on the backside.
I also messed around with a few things on the GTO but no pictures of that as it was just correcting some stock issues with the trunk. Sounds like he did decide he wants to do the front floor pans.

 

[Stooge]

I also finally found the correct transmission! Sort of an impulse buy but it was something I had been keeping my eye open for, but slightly surprise money nonetheless. Shipping up from Texas this week, 1937 Buick Big series 6 bolt transmission for the Century. A few of the gears are chipped so i'll be needing to find some replacements, but its coming with the bellhousing with integrated motor mounts, top loader shifter, clutch and all of the torque tube stuff mating stuff im missing, so I more or less have a complete driveline now! There are a few sources for prewar NOS Buick stuff, so i'll have to start researching whats damaged and what I can get replacements for, or if I need to get something made.

received_1900791176635232 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

received_1901275669920116 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

received_1901275126586837 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

received_1901275523253464 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

 

[BBChevro]

Hey Stooge, no wonder I couldn't find you for a while...I'm subscribed now to "part 2", so you can't hide.

Great work on the door bottoms.

 

[Stooge]

Hey Stooge, no wonder I couldn't find you for a while...I'm subscribed now to "part 2", so you can't hide.

Great work on the door bottoms.

Hah, thanks! I figured it was best to let the other thread die after the photobucket wipeout and going through a few hundred posts and trying to reload pictures didn't seem too fun either! Glad to see you found it, and I appreciated you following along in the other thread!

Had a little free time last night, so I spent some more time clearing all of the surface rust/crust off of the car and a little more fine tuning on the door panel. Cut out most of the old section, (I left about a half inch perimeter around the edge to leave it a little more rigid for the time being) and although the inner section is pretty rotten, most of it is still there and its a pretty simple shape to make a new one so I was pretty happy about that. i'll probably start making the inner piece in the next day or 2, get that fully welded in so I can make trim and make some final tweaks to the outer skin before welding that all the way in. Then make the passenger side one ....then make some running boards since I don't have those either and the few sets I've seen come up for sale are pretty out of my budget

I'm going to really try and not skip around so much with this car, like I did the truck, so after the door sheet metal is done, instead of just letting it sit around for a year or so, i'll body work it right away and get some primer on it. I have a sort of goal to maybe have most of the car painted this year if possible, or atleast very close to being ready for paint!

20180213_183318 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

20180213_183741 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

20180213_183747 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

20180213_184114 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

20180213_184613 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

And just held in place with a few magnets. there still a little edge of the original skin so sides are 'up' slightly, but im pretty happy with it overall. Made with a few hammers, dollies and a few other make shift 'tools' I've collected. One of these days I'd like to get a benchtop English wheel or planishing hammer but until then I kind of enjoy making do and improvising this stuff.

20180213_184347 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

20180213_184405 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

 

[BBChevro]

Yep, Photo Bucket made a huge mess of a lot of good threads.
The summary that you did near the end of the old thread should help any newcomers get up to speed though.

I'm looking forward to watching the progress on the Buick, good choice with the "new" straight eight too.
I was wondering how it would look with 8 of those motorcycle carbs (with injector-style velocity stacks. )

 

[Stooge]

Yep, Photo Bucket made a huge mess of a lot of good threads.
The summary that you did near the end of the old thread should help any newcomers get up to speed though.

I'm looking forward to watching the progress on the Buick, good choice with the "new" straight eight too.
I was wondering how it would look with 8 of those motorcycle carbs (with injector-style velocity stacks. )

you may be on the right track with the velocity stacks but right now im leaning towards 4 Stromberg 97 downdrafts, each on their own runner and possibly with some sort of equalizer tube/ plenum connecting them, although I've heard both pros and cons for this connecting piece, so i'll just keep researching I guess!

I might not have been working diligently, but I've been still just been working away at my normal leisurely pace!

Some door progress

I wanted to leave as much of the original door structure in place to lessen the likelihood of part of it 'popping' out and loosing its shape, so I decided to retain the factory door brace in place, for as rough as the inside structure looked, there was still a lot of good metal in place, so that will explain the cut out I left in the new sill piece.

20180217_130924_jpg_897eacfc6efa1e2e1518406949f39f47 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

20180217_135244_thumb_jpg_78924a25d085206c08d6da99f3e3968f by Dan Haas, on Flickr

20180217_134232_thumb_jpg_5e5eefd00bc3701c42d5ea6b4499538a by Dan Haas, on Flickr

20180217_134245_thumb_jpg_e7552980226862408fc0bbb6549f58cd by Dan Haas, on Flickr

1 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

Wire wheel on a die grinder to clean up the inside of the door that would be forever blocked off and treated with Rust Prep, a pretty volatile smelling spray that was suggested to me by a long time body guy. Leaves a grey residue on everything after about 20minutes and really seems to do the trick. then a quick primer followed by a few coats of black spray bomb. when I make the folds around the edges, i have already marked off where the plug welds, ( i don't have a spot welder, so i drill holes and fill to mimic this) kissed them with a carbide bit to remove the paint and primer and then they can be welded. i have never had much luck with any of the weld through primers I've tried. they seem to have poor adhesion and conductivity, but this has seemed to be working and still covers the hidden areas.

2018-02-27_07-48-26 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

i cheated a little bit, and just gave the beads a quick once over with a flap disc and sanding disc. i know i probably should've prettied it up a bit, but its the inside structure of a door on a personal project, so i took some liberties with it...plus i still have the passenger side door to do the same thing to.

2 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

Strong industrial magnets, clecos, side grip cleco, **** joint clamps and some locking pliers all got the chance to hold something and get in the way.having done a few doors, i am fairly paranoid about the seem shrinking down and making a little valley, but i took alot of time and moved slow and am pretty happy with it. i had plans on tig welding this, but although the metal is pretty rust free, its a little contaminated and i could have been more optimistic, so it was all mig welded. i use .030 wire for everything.

3 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

4 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

6 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

5 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

7 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

8 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

a little more work to do on this, before a final trim and i fold the edges around, but its not a million miles off, then i will start building the driver side running board as i don't have the running boards, before moving onto the passenger side door and running board.

 

[BBChevro]

Nice work Stooge, the last two pics really look good.

The Strombergs will probably suit the confines of the tall narrow under-hood space better than a sidedraft set-up would too.

 

[quadrcr87]

Good liking projects Stooge. I’ll be following along as I have a future goal of taking on similar projects.

 

[Stooge]

Nice work Stooge, the last two pics really look good.

The Strombergs will probably suit the confines of the tall narrow under-hood space better than a sidedraft set-up would too.

Thanks! Worked out pretty well and although it was hard to document with my old phone, the seam between old and new is pretty nonexistent so it shouldnt take much in the way of body work
Thats one of the reasons, theres alot space under the hood, but the engine is pretty massive and not counting the steering column that will atleast be in the way of the exhaust, the side drafts sticking out would also be sharing that space. 4 'elbow' intake runners with downdraft 97s will space them up a bit and keep things a little less cluttered and the strombergs will work well for it. Now to keep an eye open for some good rebuilt ones/rebuildable cores, or bite the bullet and buy them new, which will get spendy quick. I was talking to a buddy who owns a finishing company this morning and does powdercoating about some ideas for the intake, exhaust and engine accessories and hes on board with some ideas of his own, so it should be good!
Also got the call that crate with my transmission arrived today, so im picking that up tomorrow after work!

Good liking projects Stooge. I’ll be following along as I have a future goal of taking on similar projects.

Sounds good, thanks Quad! I usually try and explain how i work through making stuff, but take it with a grain of salt as im mostly making it up as i go! The buick should start picking up the pace a bit now though, just took awhile to get started on it!

 

[xtremek]

Have you checked to see if Lamar has any parts you need? I think his thread is called "Buick Service..." He's an AVID Buick guy.

 

[Stooge]

Have you checked to see if Lamar has any parts you need? I think his thread is called "Buick Service..." He's an AVID Buick guy.

Not over on here, but he is actually an Administrator for the Buick Club section of the AACA forums as Mr Earl

I've been slowly starting to acquire parts, most notably im going to pick up the transmission today after work that was shipped to a nearby Fastenal store up from Texas. the main parts I am still missing that i don't already have a line on, are a radiator, ( there are no reproductions made for it), a steering column and steering gear box, (although I do have a steering wheel), and a correct looking bench seat. theres a lot more to the interior that I am missing, but for the price of just the upholstery set from LeBaron Bonney of right around $5000, I am fine with just a split bench seat and a bare bones interior for the time being. Theres a guy over on the AACA forums that has also offered up a few boxes of extras, spares, etc that he doesn't need and wanted to go to a good home, so I will be making a trip up to New York a some point. He also may have a source for a steering column and box as well as a recored radiator, so that would be a very worthwhile trip!

 

[Stooge]

Still plugging away!
My transmission made its way up from Texas last week, in better shape overall than I was expecting, but it still has the chipped teeth on one of the main shaft gears and the a chipped tooth on one of the counter gear cluster gears. I have found a new old stock replacement for the cluster, but im still looking for what I believe is the main shaft low gear, but I haven't received the master parts book and shop manual I ordered yet so I cant confirm, and it was disassembled before the trans was shipped so I didn't get to take it apart to know.

20180228_162710 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

20180228_162659 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

And one crusty old bakelite shift knob!

20180228_162719 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

20180228_162855 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

2018-03-01_08-37-06 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

20180228_162908 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

 

[Stooge]

Over the weekend, I started on the driver side running board as this car didnt come with either side, nevermind even a junky set that i could repair. After alot of studying pictures of other coupes, and figuring out some reference points and temporarily hanging the driver side door back up, i started with some cardboard. this was then transferred over to some sheetmetal and a rounded edge and squared bottom edge that folds underneath to make it a little more rigid were added. There will be more structure underneath after i find/make some adjustable brackets to make aligning it easier so I can plan whatever stiffening parts around the bracket. The edges also still need to be trimmed and i will be adding a lip on body facing edge Where it will tuck up into the body like the stock one would, as well as an edge around the front and rear fender facing edges. I have also received some more specific pictures and measurements and gaps from some of the guys over on the Buick Club forums about how it would sit normally. its coming along better than I was expecting and its good to see I wasn't a million miles away when compared to the stock form.

First was hanging the door, I still need to trim and fold the front facing corner as it is a rounded edge versus the rear facing corner that was just a simple squared edge, so it sits a little 'off' right now, but it will be coming back off soon.

20180310_121703 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

5 1/2' of running board means I have to tape together my stupid cardboard templates, with paint mixing sticks and duct tape for extra rigidity and fancy points I propped this up with some jack stands and made a rough outline to cut out and refined and fit it a bit better.

20180310_124706 by Dan Haas, on Flickr]

20180310_130155 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

20180310_130127 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

And the start of the final one

20180310_152226 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

20180310_152425 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

According to some helpful people on another board, there is about a 3/4" gap between the running board edge and front and rear fenders, so I will be trimming these back a bit, which will also make it easier to position with the fenders on the body.

20180310_152331 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

20180310_152342 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

20180310_152450 by Dan Haas, on Flickr

 

[Growlertdi]

Gonna be following trhis one for sure. seems like quite a fun project.

the running board looks pretty good already, even though its early days.