Stop roll pins from walking out?

[DGersic]

I found a lot of gun forum posts on this, but I’m not looking for gun advice.

I have a bunch of windows with this type of crank out handle mechanism:



and every one of them, after opening and closing a few times, has walked the roll pin of the hinge out like this. It seems to be just a bad design, but I’m tired of pushing the pins back in. Looking for ideas on keeping them in place.

I have considered, but not tried, locktite (red? blue?), but I don’t think there’s enough surface area for it to do anything. I’m tempted to remove the pin and replace with a rivet, though forming the head would be a challenge without enough clearance to get in there.

 

[cgrutt]

Green

 

[whateg01]

Is it supposed to pivot on the roll pin? If so, I agree it's a bad design. If it's not supposed to pivot then loctite might be just the thing. But if it's supposed to pivot, I think you'd have a tough time keeping the loctite on the part that's supposed to be fixed and not get it on the part that moves.

 

[Hank11]

Take the pins out and either bend them a little or mash them a bit. Either will make a tighter fit. If the pin is the pivot, you have a tougher problem, but mashing the end that goes deeper in the hole might work.

 

[whateg01]

If it does pivot, the best thing would be a solid pin that's an interference fit with the non-pivoting part. That could be a straight knurl.

 

[MoonRise]

Try to figure out if the issue is the roll pins or the holes.

Are the pins undersized (for the hole size), too light duty for the task, buggered up, poorly installed?

Are the holes oversized (for the pin size) or buggered up?

If the pins are no good (size, quality, etc), then replace with good/better roll pins of the appropriate size.

If the holes are no good (too big for the existing pins, buggered up, etc), then drill/ream the holes to the appropriate standard size and replace with good/better quality roll pins of the appropriate size.

Or is the design so bad that the roll pin is supposed to both act as a pivot pin AND somehow stay in place in both the handle and the 'axle/shaft'?

If the roll pin is pressed into a hole in the handle and into a cross hole in the shaft and is supposed to stay pressed into both pieces but yet somehow still allow the roll pin to act as a pivot then that really is a bad design.

If the roll pin is press fit into both holes (the way that a roll pin is SUPPOSED to be installed) yet still has to allow the handle to pivot on the axis of the roll pin, then no matter what the pin is going to walk out from the twisting about the pin axis that is occurring.

In that case about the only fix that I can think of (from looking at just one picture over the Net ) is a redesign of the handle attachment and pivot method. Or adding a roll pin retention feature (a collar or clip maybe?) to keep the pin from walking out.

If you can push the roll pin into the handle so that it doesn't protrude at all, maybe you can "stake" the hole and retain the pins that way?

 

[Snip's]

McMaster-Carr.... Grooved Dowel Pins.... Full, Half or Quarter

 

[BillK]

I cant see where the roll pin is in your picture to offer an educated opinion ??

 

[JABgj]

I have the same/similar mechanisms on my kitchen windows. In the past I would remove the crank and tap the pins back in until the next time they worked out. Last time I did use some Loctite and so far, so good. Don't remember which flavor, might be a retaining formula, but worth a shot.

 

[whateg01]

I cant see where the roll pin is in your picture to offer an educated opinion ??

It's the little black square hanging down from the handle at the right.

 

[KenC]

Use a ground down pin punch in the pin's hole to expand the roll pin. Should increase the tension without making it impossible to remove if needed.
Remove it and do this on a hard surface of course.

 

[DGersic]

Or is the design so bad that the roll pin is supposed to both act as a pivot pin AND somehow stay in place in both the handle and the 'axle/shaft'?

Exactly, yes. The roll pin is in tension only at the handle part. It goes through the shaft, and is intentionally loose there to act as a hinge.

To open or close the window, you open the crank handle, pivoting it 180* on the pin, crank it, then pivot it back to the closed position. This is nicer than the old style cranks that stuck out all of the time, but a weak design that mis-uses a roll pin for a function it isn’t actually intended for.

 

[DGersic]

McMaster-Carr.... Grooved Dowel Pins.... Full, Half or Quarter

Interesting. I hadn’t seen those before. The centre groove pin might work better for this design. Different, it would make the handle the pivot instead of the shaft, but that seems ok. I’ll have to see what size the hole in the shaft is.

 

[larry4406]

Hah! Looks familiar!

We have the exact same cranks at our house! - MI windows!

Here are some additional pictures of mine. Looks like our roll pin is also walking out a bit as evidenced by the lack of paint/powder coat that is exposed.

Looks like some housekeeping is in order too!

 

[Jim greengo]

Silicone?

 

[Firebrick43]

Get some appropriate sized unhardened pin and either peen or stake the ends with a punch while a helper holds a buck on the other end.

 

[MoonRise]

OK, kind of poor design of the crank assembly.

Try pushing the roll pin back into place and then "staking" it in the handle (deform the handle metal to 'lock'
the roll pin into place in the handle and keep the pin from drifting out so easily) Ask or look it up if you are not sure what/how to "stake" something.

Or push the roll pin back into place and use some bearing retaining compound. Similar idea as thread locker, but made to hold pins, bushings, and bearings in place on their shafts or in their mounting holes. Check the clearance specs on the different retaining compounds as some are made for tighter/better fits and some can accommodate larger gaps or clearances and still work.

Ahh, Larry's pics make it clearer to see what is going on. The design may be OK, but the execution/assembly may be causing the roll pin to walk out of the holes.

Hmmm, is the pin an actual "roll pin" or is it a "split pin? If it is a split pin, maybe you can substitute a heavy-duty roll pin (stronger and usually a better 'squish' factor into the mounting hole than a regular roll pin or a split pin). Look at McMaster for some pin options and choices.

McMaster-Carr

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.

www.mcmaster.com

Split (slotted) pin has a single slit down the length.

McMaster-Carr

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.

www.mcmaster.com

Roll (coiled) pins are rolled up and not slit.

McMaster-Carr

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.

www.mcmaster.com

Heavy-duty coiled roll pins are stronger than regular-duty coiled roll pins.

McMaster-Carr

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.

www.mcmaster.com

Half-groove dowel pins here.

McMaster-Carr

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.

www.mcmaster.com

Full-groove dowel pins here.

McMaster-Carr

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.

www.mcmaster.com

 

[The Cobbler]

drill & tap the housing, install a set screw, tighten it down against the roll pin ?

 

[nadogail]

Can you expand the pins with a tapered punch?

 

[Firebrick43]

I have never had any luck swaging spring steel roll pins. They are to, well springy.

You could stake the handle itself but that is going to damage the paint. Unhardened pins is the safest bet .050” longer than the handle bore.

 

[i4ni]

Try driving a smaller roll pin in side the original and maybe drill out the handle to clearance the pin

 

[DGersic]

OK, kind of poor design of the crank assembly.

Try pushing the roll pin back into place and then "staking" it in the handle (deform the handle metal to 'lock'
the roll pin into place in the handle and keep the pin from drifting out so easily) Ask or look it up if you are not sure what/how to "stake" something.

Or push the roll pin back into place and use some bearing retaining compound. Similar idea as thread locker, but made to hold pins, bushings, and bearings in place on their shafts or in their mounting holes. Check the clearance specs on the different retaining compounds as some are made for tighter/better fits and some can accommodate larger gaps or clearances and still work.

Ahh, Larry's pics make it clearer to see what is going on. The design may be OK, but the execution/assembly may be causing the roll pin to walk out of the holes.

Hmmm, is the pin an actual "roll pin" or is it a "split pin? If it is a split pin, maybe you can substitute a heavy-duty roll pin (stronger and usually a better 'squish' factor into the mounting hole than a regular roll pin or a split pin). Look at McMaster for some pin options and choices.

McMaster-Carr

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.

www.mcmaster.com

Split (slotted) pin has a single slit down the length.

McMaster-Carr

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.

www.mcmaster.com

Roll (coiled) pins are rolled up and not slit.

McMaster-Carr

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.

www.mcmaster.com

Heavy-duty coiled roll pins are stronger than regular-duty coiled roll pins.

McMaster-Carr

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.

www.mcmaster.com

Half-groove dowel pins here.

McMaster-Carr

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.

www.mcmaster.com

Full-groove dowel pins here.

McMaster-Carr

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.

www.mcmaster.com

I’m familiar with staking, but not convinced that the metal here is sufficiently strong to have that work. It’s an idea, and I’m looking for ideas.

You're right, it’s not a roll pin, it’s a split pin. A heavy duty split pin may be better, or good enough. The centre groove pin seems better, in that this is actually the intended application for the pin.

The design is good enough to hit a price point. I think it could be better, but would cost an extra penny per window, cutting in to profits.

 

[DGersic]

Get some appropriate sized unhardened pin and either peen or stake the ends with a punch while a helper holds a buck on the other end.

I’m thinking a steel rivet here.

 

[whateg01]

Attempting up stake the pin in place is likely to just crack the handle as it's almost certainly die cast of pot metal.

 

[DGersic]

Hah! Looks familiar!

We have the exact same cranks at our house! - MI windows!

Here are some additional pictures of mine. Looks like our roll pin is also walking out a bit as evidenced by the lack of paint/powder coat that is exposed.

Looks like some housekeeping is in order too!

Same design and problem on the fancy Pella windows elsewhere in my house. It seems to be an industry standard design.

 

[DGersic]

drill & tap the housing, install a set screw, tighten it down against the roll pin ?

Possible. Not sure if there’s enough meat on it to tap, but it wouldn’t take much to keep it in place.

 

[DGersic]

Try driving a smaller roll pin in side the original and maybe drill out the handle to clearance the pin

I did that to a set of Vice Grips. It worked. That pin is never coming out.

 

[alfadan]

I think a small stake in the bottom of the hole would do it. Wouldn't take much and wouldn't show.

 

[CraigStu]

I like Nadogails idea. Gravity is helping the pin drop out. If you can remove the pin, I'd whack one end w/ a hammer so it swells the OD .005 to .010 inch. When you reinstall it get it as far as it will go by hand and then wrap tape around the jaws of channel lock to protect the finish. Squeeze it in the rest of the way so no hammer blows chance snapping off the handle.

 

[Old tool guy]

One drop of locktite here, any flavor, then tap the pin home. Why do you care if it’s permanent loctite, when are you going to remove the handle? And if you do need to remove it, take out the set screw and remove the whole assembly, like wiper blades in a car.

 

[DGersic]

One drop of locktite here, any flavor, then tap the pin home. Why do you care if it’s permanent loctite, when are you going to remove the handle? And if you do need to remove it, take out the set screw and remove the whole assembly, like wiper blades in a car.

Looking closer, the pin is in tension in the middle (shaft) section, not the handle. Loctite at the arrow would not work, that part moves. I’d have to apply it below there. I can do that. I’m not concerned about it being permanent vs. removable, I can think of no reason to ever remove it. Just looking for opinions, options, ideas, or anyone who has already solved this. So far, so good, I’ve seen several ideas I hadn’t thought of.

 

[LXCam]

I don't know if there's enough meat in that handle to utilize this option, but I figured I toss out a hex socket dog point style solution. I've seen plenty of these that are recessed like your typical set screw, but I'm not sure if this company offers those.

Hex Socket Set Screw - Dog-Point, 304 Stainless Steel, 4137 Alloy Steel, M4 - M10, Coarse | MISUMI | MISUMI

Shop Hex Socket Set Screw - Dog-Point, 304 Stainless Steel, 4137 Alloy Steel, M4 - M10, Coarse from MISUMI. MISUMI USA has all of your Hex Socket Head Cap Screws needs covered, with over 3.8M high quality products and 80 sextillion configurable parts available with fast shipping and low pricing.

us.misumi-ec.com

 

[bb29510]

hit it with a center punch

 

[Fleng]

For around the same amount of aggravation a motorized geared motor might be a bastardized idea but then there is remote control capability.
Amazon

 

[rustyzman]

If it was me, I would see about redoing the joints with semi-tubular rivets.

Steel Semi-Tubular Rivets | Tubular Rivet Suppliers | Jay-Cee Sales & Rivet, Inc.

www.rivetsonline.com

These allow a pivoting joint with full rivet retention because only the semi-tubular end is upset in the process. The shaft remains solid and to size so pivot function is maintained.

It looks like that whole handle mechanism is removable, so performing the task can be done on a bench.

 

[DGersic]

I don't know if there's enough meat in that handle to utilize this option, but I figured I toss out a hex socket dog point style solution. I've seen plenty of these that are recessed like your typical set screw, but I'm not sure if this company offers those.

Hex Socket Set Screw - Dog-Point, 304 Stainless Steel, 4137 Alloy Steel, M4 - M10, Coarse | MISUMI | MISUMI

Shop Hex Socket Set Screw - Dog-Point, 304 Stainless Steel, 4137 Alloy Steel, M4 - M10, Coarse from MISUMI. MISUMI USA has all of your Hex Socket Head Cap Screws needs covered, with over 3.8M high quality products and 80 sextillion configurable parts available with fast shipping and low pricing.

us.misumi-ec.com

Yeah, I don’t think there’s enough meat on the handle to tap and support the action of the mechanism.

 

[DGersic]

If it was me, I would see about redoing the joints with semi-tubular rivets.

Steel Semi-Tubular Rivets | Tubular Rivet Suppliers | Jay-Cee Sales & Rivet, Inc.

www.rivetsonline.com

These allow a pivoting joint with full rivet retention because only the semi-tubular end is upset in the process. The shaft remains solid and to size so pivot function is maintained.

It looks like that whole handle mechanism is removable, so performing the task can be done on a bench.

Yep, a rivet is one option I was considering.

 

[Hohn]

Yep, a rivet is one option I was considering.

I was thinking it would be tricky to find one long enough, but Jaycee shows 1/8" rivets as long as 5"!
Personally, I'd be cutting down a solid rivet and bucking the shop end with a ball pein. Maybe some vice grips as a rivet squeezer...