Storage shed - electrical supply

[4 Ever-Fish N]

This storage shed was built long before we purchased the house, 15 years ago. I recently leveled it and put new siding on it. Size is 14x10. There is roughly 25 ft of conduit under ground with romex running from main circuit panel on the house, 20 amp breaker, to the shed. No ground rod was used. We live in a rural area where most everything is done without a permit. The only thing electrical I plan to use are lights, receptacles, and maybe a bench grinder. Would you guys recommend new wiring and/or conduit to the shed?

 

[The Cobbler]

This is Garage Journal, you'll lose your stripes if you don't trench & run at least a 60 amp 240 circuit to it with oversized conduit to meet any future needs that may arise

 

[pattenp]

If the wire is nm-b it should be replaced with wire approved for outside and below ground use. If it's uf-b then it's okay. Capacity wise what you have is probably okay.

 

[Norcal]

If the wire is nm-b it should be replaced with wire approved for outside and below ground use. If it's uf-b then it's okay. Capacity wise what you have is probably okay.

Depending on the age it may not have the "-B" suffix. That started in the mid 1980's, with the suffix it has 90°C conductors, without they are rated for 60°C, although both still sized based on the 60°C ampacity. Still a good call to remove if NM cable was pulled through a UG conduit.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

post a picture of the cable running out to the shed

 

[ez-duzit]

I would consider picking up a used boat cable with receptacles.

 

[4 Ever-Fish N]

post a picture of the cable running out to the shed

I will take one tomorrow. Thanks.

 

[Spud McGee]

I'd use the existing wire to pull new wire, just for the fact that you'd get a ground. 12ga, 20 amp single breaker seems more than fine for that size unless you know you have a need for bigger.

Depending on what you're plugging in, you may not even need a ground. Chargers for lithium batteries only have 2 prongs. A ground wire wouldnt add anything. If you do need to be able to plug in 3 prong plugs, it is up to code in NEC and here in GA to install 3 prong outlets even with no ground wire. You must put an arcfault breaker in the panel and a little sticker on the outlet showing that the ground pin is not functional.

 

[mike93lx]

If you keep it to a single circuit, you don't need the ground rod.

Personally, if the wire need to get replaced, I would run a multi wire brand circuit (mwbc) which only necessitates a single additional conductor and will give you a second circuit. If there is conduit end to end, thwn is the ticket. Black white, red and a green. Replace the breaker with a two pole 20a.

If the wire is UF, I'd leave it be and just have the single circuit unless you want more.

Regardless what you do, you should have the circuit first go to a gfci receptacle so you are protecting everything downstream

 

[KenC]

I'd use the existing wire to pull new wire, just for the fact that you'd get a ground. 12ga, 20 amp single breaker seems more than fine for that size unless you know you have a need for bigger.

Depending on what you're plugging in, you may not even need a ground. Chargers for lithium batteries only have 2 prongs. A ground wire wouldnt add anything. If you do need to be able to plug in 3 prong plugs, it is up to code in NEC and here in GA to install 3 prong outlets even with no ground wire. You must put an arcfault breaker in the panel and a little sticker on the outlet showing that the ground pin is not functional.

I think you meant to say GFCI, not arc fault. And it can be done with a recpt which is cheaper than a breaker and can feed downstream recpts if needed and that's where the sticker comes in.
edit to add: if the conduit is in good condition, I'd use THWN, not UF. If metal conduit it can also be used as the grounding conductor If plastic, or you just want to, add a third wire, (green)

 

[PCustoms]

Would you guys recommend new wiring and/or conduit to the shed?

It works and doesn't sound inherently unsafe.

Leave it be.

 

[dcg9381]

The only thing electrical I plan to use are lights, receptacles, and maybe a bench grinder. Would you guys recommend new wiring and/or conduit to the shed?

There's a code issue if it's NM-B. Personally, that would be last on my honey-do list and would not worry about it. The only way I'd recommend a re-do is if you blow that 20A breaker. Not blowing that breaker, you've probably got better things to do.

Need 240V or adding heater/HVAC - then I'd pull 10ga and do a very small sub panel.

 

[4 Ever-Fish N]

Here's a couple of pictures of the wiring. One thing I forgot to mention is I do want to install a small AC unit.

 

[PCustoms]

Here's a couple of pictures of the wiring. One thing I forgot to mention is I do want to install a small AC unit.

Can you read any writing on the outside of that wiring?

 

[4 Ever-Fish N]

Can you read any writing on the outside of that wiring?

Nothing. I couldn't even find anything that looked like letters.

 

[PCustoms]

Nothing. I couldn't even find anything that looked like letters.

I bet it is embossed in the jacket and not printed.

Anyplace you can easily open up? I had some UF that looked a lot like what you have, the telltale was when you stripped the outer jacket it was molded to the inner insulation.

 

[mike93lx]

Even easier, squeeze the cable. If you can feel the conductors .moving around inside, it is NM. If it is solid, it's UF

 

[PCustoms]

Even easier, squeeze the cable. If you can feel the conductors .moving around inside, it is NM. If it is solid, it's UF

Thanks for making me feel dumb.

 

[mike93lx]

Thanks for making me feel dumb.

Lol. My first thought was the same suggestion you made and almost posted it. It only hit me when you mentioned uf being molded, so you get at least half the credit

 

[pattenp]

Looks like nm to me.

 

[nadogail]

Why not use UF Cable?

 

[mike93lx]

Why not use UF Cable?

I despise the stuff. It's terrible to work with.and I'd rather have conduit end to end, so thwn is way easier to deal with

 

[wyliesdiesels]

need to see if letters are embossed on it. my money is on that being regular NM which is not allowed outdoors or underground

 

[acer66]

One thing I forgot to mention is I do want to install a small AC unit.

I have a similar sized shed powered by a 15a circuit and it runs a window a/c and a small tool, a full sized stereo plus bunch of lights.
The shed is insulated though but sits out in the open in full sun.
So my guess is 20A should do the trick.

 

[4 Ever-Fish N]

Thank you all for your help. I'm going to do some more analysis tomorrow. If it's NM, I will be replacing it with something better.

 

[4 Ever-Fish N]

I am pretty sure the wiring I have is NM. When squeezing the cable, I could feel the wires move around and the ground wire is wrapped in paper. I took a picture of the end of the wiring before it connects to the light. Your thoughts?

 

[mike93lx]

Yep, NM for sure. The paper is part of the problem. It will wick water up into the cable

 

[4 Ever-Fish N]

What would you recommend for a 25 to 30 ft run underground? I always prefer to go a step above minimum. Thanks.

 

[mike93lx]

What would you recommend for a 25 to 30 ft run underground? I always prefer to go a step above minimum. Thanks.

For a single circuit? If you are doing conduit end to end, #12 thwn. No reason to go thicker than that.

I'd add an extra hot and run a mwbc for two separate 20a circuits. Only added cost is another piece of wire, a two pole breaker instead of a single pole and one extra gfci.

If you wanted to run a small subpanel, #10 thwn would add some capacity

 

[wyliesdiesels]

yup thats NM. UF doesnt have paper in it

 

[CJ7VFR]

Is the wire you have shown, with the paper around the ground (which is NM) the same wire that is coming up out of the ground in the conduit? You posted two pictures in post number 13, one that shows a single cable coming out of the ground in conduit, and another picture that shows two sets of wires connected to a box. Is that where the wire coming up from the ground/conduit terminates? You need to check the cable coming out of the conduit to see if it is UF-B. If it is, then you can, by code, run the things inside the shed using NM-B. UF-B was jacketed in white, and a few other colors, before the universal color of gray was put into place. If the cable coming up from the conduit does not have any colored printing on it, use a flashlight and shine it along the cable from both sides to light up the raised areas where the writing will be embossed on it. This will help to highlight the letters so you can read it. The cable coming up from the conduit may not be the same cable used to wire the light fixture you have shown in post 26. If it does end up to be NM cable in the conduit coming up from the ground, then you have to replace it with either UF-B or thwn wires as others have said.

 

[exranger06]

I'd use the existing wire to pull new wire, just for the fact that you'd get a ground. 12ga, 20 amp single breaker seems more than fine for that size unless you know you have a need for bigger.

Depending on what you're plugging in, you may not even need a ground. Chargers for lithium batteries only have 2 prongs. A ground wire wouldnt add anything. If you do need to be able to plug in 3 prong plugs, it is up to code in NEC and here in GA to install 3 prong outlets even with no ground wire. You must put an arcfault breaker in the panel and a little sticker on the outlet showing that the ground pin is not functional.

What you're describing is only acceptable/up to code if you're replacing old, existing, 2-prong receptacles with new 3-prong receptacles, and there's no grounding conductor available to connect the receptacle to. It is not acceptable or up to code if you're installing a new circuit or replacing existing 3-prong receptacles. See 406.4

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I'd use the existing wire to pull new wire, just for the fact that you'd get a ground. 12ga, 20 amp single breaker seems more than fine for that size unless you know you have a need for bigger.

Depending on what you're plugging in, you may not even need a ground. Chargers for lithium batteries only have 2 prongs. A ground wire wouldnt add anything. If you do need to be able to plug in 3 prong plugs, it is up to code in NEC and here in GA to install 3 prong outlets even with no ground wire. You must put an arcfault breaker in the panel and a little sticker on the outlet showing that the ground pin is not functional.

not quite. it needs to be a GFCI breaker or receptacle not an AFCI... an AFCI wont give 2 craps about a ground fault...

 

[4 Ever-Fish N]

The wire comes out of the conduit and into a switch box. The attached photo shows the wire on the left side of the box coming in from the bottom. You can see the paper wrapped wire, but you may have to zoom in.

 

[mikedodge]

If all you are using is what you said in the first post leave it as-is.

 

[4 Ever-Fish N]

If all you are using is what you said in the first post leave it as-is.

I think I will. I'm over budget already. Thanks.

 

[Spud McGee]

I think I will. I'm over budget already. Thanks.

They could rename this forum overbudget journal. If you haven't blown your budget, you're doing it wrong.

 

[nadogail]

Budget? We don’t need no Stinking Budget!