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Strengthening trusses for storage

Czar

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So I've read a bunch of the threads regarding storage in a truss system above a garage and I keep seeing some saying go for it and others saying no. I happen to be lucky enough to have copies of the stamped truss documents. My thinking now would be to sister 2x8 or 2x10 to the bottom chord, add 2x8 or 2x10 in between the trusses, reinforce the joints with steel plate and Simpson SDS 9d screws, blow in cellulose and lay down plywood for light storage (Christmas lights, baby seats, etc.) I'll post pics of the docs next.
 

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dave*99

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I can't tell you if it will work or not. But I expect you will get lots of opinions on this question. What I will say is truss engineering is a well established science and an experienced licensed engineer will give you a design. Once you have that, you can compare all the opinions and see which are correct. I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm just saying its hard to trust even the best well intentioned advice when looking at an engineering question such as yours.
Keep in mind all of the timber and steel you mentioned add weight to the truss system. The roof load will be a part of the design, snow load too.
 

Dhagan887

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For Christmas lights, baby seats ,etc. lay plywood down and be done with it.
 

BillK

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Czar,
Sometimes common sense needs to come into mind on stuff like this. I am certainly not a truss engineer but I know that when I built my garage and almost any time a building like your is constructed, there are workmen walking around on the trusses. Electricians running wire through the attic, HVAC guys etc etc etc. I would say most average guys weigh at least 200 lbs and they certainly don't worry about the trusses falling in when they are walking / crawling around up there. How about attic air handlers and AC units sitting on trusses. I doubt seriously that anyone has 200Lbs of Xmas lights or car seats. Even if you did, you are spreading the load over several trusses.

Now if you want to store engine blocks up there it might be a different story.

Just saying ................
 

nadogail

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For what it's worth, I laid 3/f8" OSB across the bottom chords of the 2X4 trusses in my 19' wide two car garage, nailed it in place and I regularly take my 215 lb. body up there to look through the stuff I have stashed away.
 

MEngineer

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Czar - A larger image of the diagram will make use of the specs more reliable. I am unable to read (well) the points on the truss.

Thanks
 

RAYJAY

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Czar,
Sometimes common sense needs to come into mind on stuff like this. I am certainly not a truss engineer but I know that when I built my garage and almost any time a building like your is constructed, there are workmen walking around on the trusses. Electricians running wire through the attic, HVAC guys etc etc etc. I would say most average guys weigh at least 200 lbs and they certainly don't worry about the trusses falling in when they are walking / crawling around up there. How about attic air handlers and AC units sitting on trusses. I doubt seriously that anyone has 200Lbs of Xmas lights or car seats. Even if you did, you are spreading the load over several trusses.

Now if you want to store engine blocks up there it might be a different story.

Just saying ................


x-2 way over thinking on this
 

lakeroadster

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OP... you are not overthinking this at all... kudo's to you for ensuring capacity before moving forward.

Based on the data you provided above, the truss bottom chord is designed for a 10 lb/sq-ft loading.

How much weight are you wanting to put up there?
 

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bczygan

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OP... you are not overthinking this at all... kudo's to you for ensuring capacity before moving forward.

Based on the data you provided above the truss bottom chord is designed for a 10 lb/sq-ft loading already.

How much weight are you wanting to put up there?

That is incorrect.

The Dead Load is the load of the structure itself.

There is zero live load in the design of that bottom chord. You shouldn't really even add a drywall ceiling.

There are a bunch of contributing factors at play here. There is an accounting for the top chords to carry a snow load, and there is a safety factor built in, and the dead load might not actually be 10#/SF.

If you have open trusses with no drywall on the bottom chord to worry about cracking and nail pops, and if you are using lightweight plywood, mostly near the walls, and you are storing only lightweight stuff, with the long skinny stuff near the eaves and the larger bulkier, but still very light stuff further towards the middle where you have more height. And if you don't get a bug wet heavy snow, and there isn't 2 or 3 layers of heavy Architectural shingles, and the trusses were properly constructed.

Then, using some common sense, use the space. But overload it and it will deflect more, and given a worse case scenario with snow loads and maybe a wind condition, and everything might add up to negative results.

When the live loads (Stuff stored) gets great or nearer the center of spans, and you have lots of space up there and access to walk around and maybe you want to put a drywall ceiling up, then you need to add structural capability.

Now, an engineer can tell you how to add a member to the existing truss bottom chords to do whatever it is you need to accommodate.

But my preference is to make this a separate system from the trusses. That way it acts independently to the loads imposed.

Do you ever want to insulate and install a ceiling? If so, and there is space, I would install ceiling joists (Dimensional or engineered depending on span and loads) spaced between the existing trusses, deep enough to allow insulation and a plywood deck for storage. Add 1x strapping to the bottoms of these members to make sure the ceiling is below the existing trusses.

But then you are working in between the existing trusses and usually the roof slope is too low to allow much space anyway.

I'd just add a shed.

Edit: I see you have 12/12 pitch. Just lay some 7/16" plywood along the walls in the corners of the attic and use it for the light stuff listed. Spread the load so it is as uniform as possible. You'll be OK as long as you don't go hog wild.

Also note that dimensional lumber won't span those distances and support itself, much less any load worth mention.
BTW, you don't have a drywall ceiling, do you?

Bill
 
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matt_i

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Let's see...10 psf and 400 sq ft would be 4000 lb. You can store a car up there.

Of sorts. Have to deduct the total or distributed weight of the drywall and OSB. Also it assumes distribution of the load. Car has 4 concentrated loads as it should be obvious.

As a guy who grew up where my Dad packed the attic nearly 30% solid with wood and other stuff, I was the attic rat since I was younger, smaller and more flexible. Obviously lighter than I am now but I never detected any deflection walking around. This was garden variety garage, the opening was there but we added the pull down staircase. No issues in the 15 years we lived there and it was still standing last time I went by.

For light duty storage of household stuff I wouldn't worry.
 

lakeroadster

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....

Based on the data you provided above, the truss bottom chord is designed for a 10 lb/sq-ft loading.

How much weight are you wanting to put up there?

That is incorrect.

The Dead Load is the load of the structure itself.

There is zero live load in the design of that bottom chord. You shouldn't really even add a drywall ceiling.

Edit: I see you have 12/12 pitch. Just lay some 7/16" plywood along the walls in the corners of the attic and use it for the light stuff listed. Spread the load so it is as uniform as possible. You'll be OK as long as you don't go hog wild.

Also note that dimensional lumber won't span those distances and support itself, much less any load worth mention.
BTW, you don't have a drywall ceiling, do you?

Bill

Of sorts. Have to deduct the total or distributed weight of the drywall and OSB. Also it assumes distribution of the load. Car has 4 concentrated loads as it should be obvious.

As a guy who grew up where my Dad packed the attic nearly 30% solid with wood and other stuff, I was the attic rat since I was younger, smaller and more flexible. Obviously lighter than I am now but I never detected any deflection walking around. This was garden variety garage, the opening was there but we added the pull down staircase. No issues in the 15 years we lived there and it was still standing last time I went by.

For light duty storage of household stuff I wouldn't worry.
All good advice, except for the red shown above, but the OP doesn't have to guess, or wing it.

DEAD LOAD Definition: Dead loads are the weight of the materials in the structure and any items permanently placed on the structure.


You certainly can add drywall or some other sheathing... that is why the truss has the 10# dead load built into the design, the designer assumes something will be added, so they design the truss with a dead load.

The truss doesn't know if it is a dead load or a live load... it's a piece of wood. So if there is not drywall or structure, other than the truss bottom chord itself, you can using the 10# dead load and then calculate the weight of whatever you will be using for sheathing and any added structure to support the sheathing (2x? purlins, joist hangers, etc.). Deduct that from the 10# load and that is how much you can safely add (uniformly) and not stress the truss beyond it's design.

If you want the area for storage though the lighter the weight of the sheathing, the more storage weight you can use. There are a lot of options for sheathing, steel panels, plastic panels, LP Smartside Panels, etc. that are much lighter than drywall.
 
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Czar

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Thanks for all the thoughts everyone. Sorry I haven't responded, I've been a little busy. I'll get a better photo of the diagram up later today. As a side note the drywall ceiling is 15' above the garage floor and as someone pointed out, the peak is another 11' above the bottom chord. One thing I did forget is that I was planning to add a Werner trick ladder above the mud room door (9' to the landing from ceiling.). That being said, there is an enormous amount of room inside the trusses and could see us using it all to store a bunch of household junk. I also plan on blowing in insulation after redoing my garage lighting, laying speaker cable and additional 230 for a ceiling mounted heater.
 

nolimits76

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All good advice, except for the red shown above, but the OP doesn't have to guess, or wing it.

If I recall correctly, the guy you called out as wrong is a retired engineer (going off memory of previous posts, so if I am wrong, I apologize in advance).

For clarity, we may all want to view this just to gain a better understanding of live and dead loads. In short, dead loads equal structure loads and live loads equal people/material loads.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structural_load#Dead_load

While I agree the wood doesn't know the difference between live load & dead load, I do know the engineer of the trusses designed them for 0 live load and 10#/sf dead load. Do any of us really know how much true dead load the trusses are actually carrying?

I think bczygan's response may have been very conservative, but if my recollection is correct about him being an engineer, isn't that what we would expect? I sure as hell don't want an optimistic, "yeah throw a car up there" response with no logic and analysis to support that decision. In the end, that's why we pay for engineering opinions. Hence the word, opinion. Engineers sometimes get it wrong too, and can be held responsible for a failure; a reason many are very careful in their responses on boards like these.

All this said, I'm not an engineer and I've always had stick built structures so didn't deal with trusses in my own personal home. Each one I've thrown 3/4" plywood on and stored my junk (Christmas lights, suitcases, etc) in the space. All have been solid and never caused problems. None I've got engineering opinions. Also, none I've thrown stupid heavy objects on either. The one house I built with a second story game room, I wanted a pool table and we engineered that one with wood I-beam trusses basically.
 

lakeroadster

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If I recall correctly, the guy you called out as wrong is a retired engineer (going off memory of previous posts, so if I am wrong, I apologize in advance).

For clarity, we may all want to view this just to gain a better understanding of live and dead loads. In short, dead loads equal structure loads and live loads equal people/material loads.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structural_load#Dead_load

While I agree the wood doesn't know the difference between live load & dead load, I do know the engineer of the trusses designed them for 0 live load and 10#/sf dead load. Do any of us really know how much true dead load the trusses are actually carrying?

That is incorrect.

The Dead Load is the load of the structure itself.

There is zero live load in the design of that bottom chord. You shouldn't really even add a drywall ceiling.

Bill

nolimits7 I too am a retired engineer... and I didn't say bczygan was wrong or call him out, I said that his comment "You shouldn't really even add a drywall ceiling" was bad advice.

The bottom chord of the truss in this case is designed for a 10 lb/sq-ft dead load. If the bottom chord currently has nothing attached to it or laying on it then it currently has a dead load of zero.

The drywall and it's supporting lumber is / would be considered a dead load (your link even eludes to this, as it states "plasterboard" is a dead load). It would be supported by the bottom chord of the truss, and as long as the supporting lumber and drywall do not exceed 10 lb/sq-ft then it fits within the design of the trusses. That is why the truss has a bottom chord dead load rating.... for a ceiling.

Dead load vs live load.... it's all the same to the lower chord, the only reason for the two different categories is a live load has a higher safety factor (typically 1.6) than the dead load (typically 1.2).

As I wrote previously, the OP doesn't have to guess, or wing it. He has all the data needed to make an educated decision on how to proceed.
 

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Slednut

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I live close to a truss company so one day i stopped and asked what is the best way to use my attic for storage. They didn't recommend it but told me to build shelves like this. It transfers the load more evenly.
 

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laser3kw

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Dead load vs live load.... it's all the same to the lower chord, the only reason for the two different categories is a live load has a higher safety factor (typically 1.6) than the dead load (typically 1.2).


just for my own ( and others) education, I understood that Dead load is as you describe - dead / never changes, evenly distributed and Live load was for loads that can vary such as people walking or jumping ( or pole dancing) or more concentrate loads such as a 200 lb block occupying a 2 square foot area.
Anyone care to school me a little?
 

lakeroadster

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James-W

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I suspect if you put a couple sheets 1/2 inch plywood up there and stored some lights and empty boxes, it would not be a problem. But it has been my experience that when you give someone an inch, they want to take a mile. I guess what I am trying to say is, it may very well start out with a few Christmas lights and some empty boxes, but over time it may up with a whole lot of weight.

I think it would be best, as has been suggested, to construct a different system to support a floor. That way the trusses are not holding up the weight.
 
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Czar

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Here's another photo of the diagram. Hopefully this one is a bit more legible.
 

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