Structural engineers opinions wanted (or anyone elses for that mater)

[xtrm4xjp]

So I'm going to look at a cinder block building today that is 2 stories. I don't have any actual dimensions so I know actual figures are going to be hard to calculate. From what I am told by the realtor the second floor is more of a loft type deal. The ceiling height on the first floor is not tall enough for a lift so my question is could I concievable take out the second floor of the building? Would I need to build some sort of metal skeleton inside to keep it stucturally sound? My approximation of the building foot print is 26 x 32. I know it's kind of vague but I will hopefully have more information about it once I look at it later today. Thanks for the input.

Anders

 

[PAToyota]

No way to tell from that information. Often, the floors will brace the cmu walls laterally. But without knowing the width of the walls, how they are reinforced, and how the floors are tied to them it is impossible to even fathom a guess.

 

[xtrm4xjp]

Okay, I just got back from looking at the building and here is the info I have.

Inner walls are 24'x22'. From the first floor to the top of the second floor is 9'. Walls are approximately 8" thick. The second floor is structured with 2x6's that are in the brick(not sure how deep though. There are 3 posts that are running from the first floor up to the bottom of the 2x6's for support. The 2x6's appear to be 18" O/C.

My thought at this point (if possible) would be to take out what is existing for the second floor. It will need to be renovated anyway as there was a fire that burned partially through several 2x6's. Build a metal I beam structure 7'-8' off of one of the 24' walls creating an open area and 7'-8' loft. Build the loft off of the I beam support over the the wall using the existing pockets. To support the other wall costruct an I beam frame on the other 24' wall that will have lateral braces running right next to the 22'wall to the center I beam sturctures. Add tention cables in an X from each top and bottom corner.

Hopefully this some what makes sense. I can see it in my head and hopefully it's translating to words as I'm seeing it.

I know it probably seems like a lot of work for a small space but the price is right so I want to explore options to make it useful to me.

Anders

 

[kbs2244]

Sometimes in the older brick and block buildings there are across the building tie rods that go through the wall and have dinner plate sized washers bolted to them on the outside.
The idea is to keep the walls from spreading out.
I your case they would be hidden right under the second floor, between the joists.
You should be able to see the plates on the outside.

A lot of this has to do with the thickness of the wall and their ability to withstand the
“push out” force of the roof rafters.

If you don’t have these rods, and some kind of truss roof support so the roof weight load is pure vertical, you should be good to go.

 

[xtrm4xjp]

I did not see any type of bolts on the outside of the building when walking around it and from what I could tell in there wasn't any rods coming into the building. The roof is essentially a flat rubber roof (there is some pitch to it but not much). The beams crossing the roof are once again just straight 2x6's. The only thing I can think of that might be of som importance there is that they run the perpendicular of the second floor beams.

Anders

 

[wssix99]

You should be able to get a lift under 9'. Is it that you want to lift the load higher?

Can you post a picture? If you have joists pocketed in to the wall, they may not be structural. Not sure what you mean about the posts, though. Are they supporting a beam under the joists, or are they just under a few joists at random?

 

[xtrm4xjp]

You should be able to get a lift under 9'. Is it that you want to lift the load higher?

Can you post a picture? If you have joists pocketed in to the wall, they may not be structural. Not sure what you mean about the posts, though. Are they supporting a beam under the joists, or are they just under a few joists at random?

Well the floor of the second floor is at 9', under the joists it's about 8 1/2'. The issue with that is that I won't be able to stand under any of my vehicles to work on them (Jeep, Pickups, etc.).

Unfortunately, I didn't think to take my camera. The posts are supporting a pair of 2 x 8's that are nailed together running perpendicular to the 2nd floor joists (I'm assuming this was done to support the middle of the 2nd floor).

 

[sbin]

Floor joists that slide into pockets in the brick probably are not acting as collar ties.You should be able to remove them and build a loft with something more substantial than 2x6.Some pictures of the structure would help make any opinion offered more relevant.

 

[sbin]

Help my brother turn a much bigger brick warehouse with a flat roof into a bar.We pulled out 2x12x16 joists like you described and just bricked up the openings.As masonary walls strength is on vertical loading we were actually more concerned with the walls cracking because a large load was removed.
A flat wooden roof will need support perpendicular to the roof joists.A gabel roof will need collar ties but those can be moved up and modified in many ways

 

[wssix99]

It sounds like you are probably OK to remove the floor, but I'd recommend having an engineer take a look at it in person before you do it.

If the joists are pocketed in to the masonry, they should be loose, and have an angle cut in to the end of them inside the pocket. In the event of a fire, this should allow the floor to collapse without twisting the masonry wall and bringing that down to. If you have this setup, the floor should not be integral to keeping the masonry up.

 

[xtrm4xjp]

Sounds like not only what I wanted to hear but what I need to hear too. Before I do any of that I will definitely have an engineer look at it. Just trying to get a general idea of what I'm getting myself into. Thanks a lot of the advise everyone.

Anders

 

[Frank The Plumber]

From what I have witnessed in the past there are a lot of ways to build a wall out of block.
In some cases there is a rod type reinforcement used, in some cases the blocks are also properly filled, this gives the wall added wind sheer strength. I suppose it is really going to matter what type of roof is on it, where it is and what it could be exposed to. The other factor I might worry about if it were mine would be how exactly the second floor was tied into the block. If they chopped the **** out of the blocks and shattered them or if you have to do that to remove the second floor that could be a problem. I think I would also check the integrity of what is existing as far as cracks, shifts, repairs. The old structure may have a few stories to tell.

 

[6768rogues]

There is a slenderness ratio to consider with cmu walls. If the wall is too tall and skinny, it needs reinforcement or bracing. Either consult an engineer or do some research using your building information.