structural tie rods and turnbuckles....

[gjbuilder]

Upper haylofts of my barn have 3/4 inch steel tie rods that criss-cross the cross section of the upper barn (of the hayloft itself).

This is for rigidity and seismic and so on ...

For a variety of reasons, we need to cut these, and because we don't want to dissect the roof, we don't want to put in an entirely new steel rod ... we want to cut them, do the work we need to do, and then reattach them.

I am thinking of buying 3/4" turnbuckle bodies, 12" long, and threading both ends of the rod that we cut, and just turnbuckling the tie rods back together nice and tight.

Two questions:

- any idea what kind of threading turnbuckles use ? Just plain old bolt threading ? I feel like I see some measured in mm...

- Is this a bad idea ? If you saw structural tie rods spliced with a turnbuckle would you be skeptical and or worried ? The load limit I see on these 3/4 turnbuckles is 5000 lbs, give or take, which seems like a very small load for a building ... but maybe that load limit is based on the hooks/eyes and not the body itself ...


Comments ?

 

[ishiboo]

Upper haylofts of my barn have 3/4 inch steel tie rods that criss-cross the cross section of the upper barn (of the hayloft itself).

This is for rigidity and seismic and so on ...

For a variety of reasons, we need to cut these, and because we don't want to dissect the roof, we don't want to put in an entirely new steel rod ... we want to cut them, do the work we need to do, and then reattach them.

I am thinking of buying 3/4" turnbuckle bodies, 12" long, and threading both ends of the rod that we cut, and just turnbuckling the tie rods back together nice and tight.

Two questions:

- any idea what kind of threading turnbuckles use ? Just plain old bolt threading ? I feel like I see some measured in mm...

Assuming you are in the US, there is a 0.00001% chance they are metric.

- Is this a bad idea ? If you saw structural tie rods spliced with a turnbuckle would you be skeptical and or worried ? The load limit I see on these 3/4 turnbuckles is 5000 lbs, give or take, which seems like a very small load for a building ... but maybe that load limit is based on the hooks/eyes and not the body itself ...


Comments ?

I think all new rod-tensioned installs of this type actually USE turnbuckles. So no, I wouldn't be skeptical or worried. Yes, they are rated for 5000 lbs but at 3/4 that is like a 5:1 safety factor.

Asking these particular questions though, I am concerned there are the skills to do this. Are you going to temporarily brace stuff while they are cut/removed? What keeps everything from racking while you are doing the work?

 

[510ebl]

*snip*
Two questions:

- any idea what kind of threading turnbuckles use ? Just plain old bolt threading ? I feel like I see some measured in mm...

Comments ?

Perhaps this is obvious to everyone involved, but remember that half of your threads will be left-hand (reverse-threaded) for the turnbuckle to work

 

[readhead]

As mentioned one rod will need a left hand thread. Keep in mind that the rods will have to move away from each other to start the turnbuckle. Do you have that room? Can you weld the rod back together? Why does it have to be cut? Are they holding the walls together or are they X-bracing for the roof? I build a lot of these rods for structural applications. Need more info. Photos would help.

 

[nadogail]

How are you going to make the left hand threads?

 

[gjbuilder]

Asking these particular questions though, I am concerned there are the skills to do this. Are you going to temporarily brace stuff while they are cut/removed? What keeps everything from racking while you are doing the work?

They were never tightened properly in the first place ... the 6 years I have lived here, and probably 20 years prior to that, those tie rods had probably 6-8 inches of slack in them and were just flapping there.

So it's currently "loose" and we are tightening things up so that it's done right going forward.

 

[gjbuilder]

How are you going to make the left hand threads?

No idea ... maybe my brain isn't working, but I thought we would just put the threading tool on upsidedown for the left handed ones ?

 

[510ebl]

No idea ... maybe my brain isn't working, but I thought we would just put the threading tool on upsidedown for the left handed ones ?

That only works south of the equator

 

[kbs2244]

They are not under load now?
How are the ends fastened to the building?
Why can't you just remove them and then re insert them?

 

[gjbuilder]

That only works south of the equator

Ok, seriously though ... I have never had to thread rod before ... you are saying the threader tool that I might buy at my local hardware store would only have the ability to thread clockwise ?

 

[Bondo]

Ok, seriously though ... I have never had to thread rod before ... you are saying the threader tool that I might buy at my local hardware store would only have the ability to thread clockwise ?

Ayuh,.... Normally, taps, 'n dies cut right handed threads,...

You'd need a left handed die to cut left handed threads,....

Doubt you'll find 'em at yer corner hardware store either,....

I'd be lookin' at the overall structure to see why the tie bars are loose,....
Might need jackin' elsewhere, than where yer lookin',....

'n I'll echo the question, why not just unbolt what's there, insteada cuttin' 'em,..??

 

[theoldwizard1]

You can't just cut that rod ! First you have to put in some temporary support to take it place !!

How are you going to make the left hand threads?

Left hand die. They DO exist !

 

[theoldwizard1]

Ayuh,.... Normally, taps, 'n dies cut right handed threads,...

You'd need a left handed die to cut left handed threads,....

Doubt you'll find 'em at yer corner hardware store either,....

That is why Google exists !

And the turnbuckles you find at the hardware store are for ****. You need "structural" turnbuckles. Google.

 

[matt_i]

I would try to avoid cutting them at all costs. Its going to add so much work. Cut threads aren't of the same strength as a roll-formed thread, which is likely what the originals are.

I'd look into renting or borrowing a Ridgid 535 pipe threading machine, they make bolt dies for it, not sure about left-hand, but that's the absolute fastest way to cut a thread on a rod. Doing by hand with a traditional hand powered threading die is miserable work....the die doesn't want to go on straight, you probably need a 24" handle or longer to thread a 3/4" rod, lots of cutting oil, etc. Would be nearly impossible to do while in place, hence taking them down to do it in a vise or machine....or just take them down period to start and avoid all the machinations.

 

[pop pop]

If it's loose and you don't think the wind will blow before you get it back in, find a way to remove it without cutting. Why not take the nut off and remove it? Never saw one that was welded in or could not be removed by taking a nut off. Are there others in another bay? At final assembly they should be tensioned.

 

[gjbuilder]

That is why Google exists !

And the turnbuckles you find at the hardware store are for ****. You need "structural" turnbuckles. Google.

Well, based on your comment I have been searching all evening for structural turnbuckles, but all the fancy manufacturers:

http://www.wecallinc.com/wecall_products/turnbuckles/turnbuckles.html

http://www.clevelandcityforge.com/industrial-fasteners/structural-steel-turnbuckles/

.... have 3/4" turnbuckles rated to the exact same 5200 lbs that the ones on amazon.com and grainger are rated to ...

I am happy to spend more money, but I must beg your pardon - who makes the special "structural" turnbuckles ? I can't find them ...

 

[readhead]

As I mentioned before I build a lot of this type of rod assemblies. Threading the existing rods can be done but may be very difficult depending on site conditions. Is this a wood or steel structure? How long are the rods? If it is a wood structure and the rods are 30' long, six inches of sag is to be expected. The rod is pretty heavy and if you tighten it you will probably destroy the structure if there is not enough resistance. How are the ends attached? Can the rods be removed and replaced?

There is a lot to be considered here. When you start to get into structural rated turnbuckles they are not stock items. I have to order them by length and amount of thread and end diameter. The supplier has blanks that are drilled and threaded to my specs which are provided by an engineer.

You asked for help and a lot of people want to help but we need more info.

 

[gjbuilder]

Ok, here is a longer explanation.

The tie rods criss-cross the second story haylofts of my barn and they are probably 24' long. The reason we need to remove them is that we are building large timber framing into the hayloft (a long, 16' cross beam, and then 8' tall supports underneath that frame a large 8x10 sliding glass door). But the tie rods intersect with these big 6x8 timbers.

So, we need to remove the tie rods temporarily, build in the big new timber framing, trace the line that the rods will take, drill diagonal holes *through* the timber framing and then reinsert the tie rods.

That's what needs to be done.

Now, why are we set on cutting the rods ? They are 24-26' long and the hayloft is 12' above the ground, so there isn't room to pull them down and out - we have to pull them up and out ... but the peak of the barn where the terminate is about 40' tall and is covered with steel roofing, etc. - the timbers are socketed *behind* the ceiling. We can't see the socket/nut/whatever - the rod just disappears into a 6x8.

So imagine rigging up ladders to go up to the 40' tall peak of a barn (it's very steep and has a bunch of diagonal angles) and then pulling out a 26' long rod straight upward *after* you disassemble a bunch of the steel roofing, etc.

I appreciate that threading 3/4 rod in-place is going to be a *****, but pulling them up and out the roof is not only going to be a bigger PITA, it will be fairly dangerous.

So that's the decision to cut.

Now, for the other questions about racking and danger to the building, etc. ...

1. these tie rods were loosey-goosey ... I mean, you just walk right up and flop them around. They were doing nothing. Further, if they *got* loose over the years because of building movement, you would expect one to be tight and one to be loose, but no ... they're both loose ... and the building is plum and level. There are other pieces of this barn that were left unfinished ... and this is along that pattern.

So they've never done anything AFAICT and also ... we just braced the entire upper structure with a huge, horizontal 6x8 that is tied together with big steel gusset plates in all corners. The barn has never been stronger.

2. I am inclined to just use a "normal" turnbuckles rated to 5200 lbs so we can wrap this part of the job up, but they will be very accessible, so when the dust settles we can order the structural turnbuckles and easily swap them.

 

[matt_i]

So, what I personally would do is to cut them where needed with a portaband. Make up, from 1018 flat bar, plates approx 16" long x 1/2" x 3", with a 3/4" wide thru slot milled, torch cut, down 6" from each end. This is the repair plate. When the job is finished, one cuts an additional 4" piece out of the rod at the place where you first cut it, then weld back together with 7018 rods, weld bead in 4 areas.

The stick welding which will presumably be uphill better be good stuff and not your first time. This plus it will be very dangerous to be welding in a large wood frame building. A ready and waiting garden hose at pressure and fire watch for at least an hour afterward.

 

[gjbuilder]

So, what I personally would do is to cut them where needed with a portaband. Make up, from 1018 flat bar, plates approx 16" long x 1/2" x 3", with a 3/4" wide thru slot milled, torch cut, down 6" from each end. This is the repair plate. When the job is finished, one cuts an additional 4" piece out of the rod at the place where you first cut it, then weld back together with 7018 rods, weld bead in 4 areas.

Ok, I get where you are going with this and I have seen similar parts welded into tie rods in the past.

However, we have to get the tension and measurements exactly right, or we're just welding together a loose tie rod ... I really like the ability to tighten them to the appropriate tension in the beginning, and then make adjustments as the years go by, which is what a turnbuckle affords me ...

BTW, the rods are cut as of yesterday afternoon, so that bridge has been crossed. Now it's just either:

a) find thread dies for galvanized sizing, which is slightly larger

b) find non-galvanized turnbuckle bodies

... both of which are rather difficult...

 

[rlitman]

I would try to avoid cutting them at all costs. Its going to add so much work. Cut threads aren't of the same strength as a roll-formed thread, which is likely what the originals are.

I'd look into renting or borrowing a Ridgid 535 pipe threading machine, they make bolt dies for it, not sure about left-hand, but that's the absolute fastest way to cut a thread on a rod. Doing by hand with a traditional hand powered threading die is miserable work....the die doesn't want to go on straight, you probably need a 24" handle or longer to thread a 3/4" rod, lots of cutting oil, etc. Would be nearly impossible to do while in place, hence taking them down to do it in a vise or machine....or just take them down period to start and avoid all the machinations.

That there is good advice!

 

[Bondo]

So they've never done anything AFAICT and also ... we just braced the entire upper structure with a huge, horizontal 6x8 that is tied together with big steel gusset plates in all corners. The barn has never been stronger.

Ayuh,.... Is any or all of this new heavy duty structure tied into the original barn structure,..??

If so,... Cut the rods, 'n scrap 'em,.....

They ain't never done nothin', so they're unneeded with the added support yer buildin' in,....

 

[DonPowers]

I have used threaded rod couplings to splice threaded rods.

https://images.search.yahoo.com/sea...QRzZWMDc2M-?p=Threaded+Rod+Couplings&fr=aaplw

 

[gjbuilder]

http://www.clevelandcityforge.com/industrial-fasteners/structural-steel-turnbuckles/

They make galvanized turnbuckle bodies ... with ... standard size taps.

Problem(s) solved.

 

[readhead]

We usually have about 6"-8" of thread cut on the ends of the rods. If you don't have access to the ends of the rods how will you spread them apart enough to start them into the turnbuckle?

You can tension the rods with a come a long and weld them back together with a plate or a piece of pipe.

Another option is to cut a section out and build a section about 4' long to place in between the existing rods which will give you the turnbuckle you want.

 

[JerryB]

Industrial hardware companies like McMaster-Carr have left hand dies in fairly large (over 1") sizes. Affordable too!

Same thing with turnbuckles, including structural and stainless steel turnbuckles with and without rods. The ones without rods are designed for the installation you describe.

Just a couple of minutes looking shows numerous solutions, but you will not find this stuff at HD or Lowes.

One thing to look at is whether you can remove the rods after they are cut (now they are shorter) and use a threading machine to do what is the most work intensive and difficult part. You might even consider cutting the rods in two places, to be rejoined with two turnbuckles, to make the threading easier.

You might consider cutting the existing rods in two places, thus making room for threading and the turnbuckle. In that case, at least two of the threads could be cut on a threading machine. If you really can not remove the rods from the structure, you would still have to do the other two in place, but they could be the (slightly) easier to control RH threads.