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Stuck Aluminum Plug

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bobcat

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Nov 10, 2011
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Need some suggestions guys . Just installed the engine and went to put the oil temp sensor in . The engine builder put an aluminum plug in the steel bung/sump ( Canton 8 qt road race sump ) ... said he didn`t tighten it down much. Guess what ? It ain`t moving . Being aluminum , the Allen wrench is starting to strip out . Tried heat and no luck , guess aluminum expands quicker than steel . Taking the engine back out tomorrow so I can get at it as space is extremely limited when it`s in the car.
Planning on soaking it overnight with PB Blaster and seeing if I can get an impact wrench on it ( extremely space limited on the sump ) and set it low so maybe the impacts will loosen it without stripping out the socket .

Any and all suggestions are welcome !!!!!
 
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LXCam

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Try the heat one more time but this time try to tighten it a little. If it does tighten up just a tad, then loosen. You may have to do this several times but be prepared for galled threads.
 
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Cobra5150

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D45 said:
Grind a deep line in it and use a large flat head to remove it
Click to expand...

If it's a plug like I'm thinking it's probably flush with the pan. Best things I can think of are posted, unless you could tig another piece of aluminum to it.
 
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bobcat

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Thanks for the suggestions . I`m soaking the plug overnight with PB Blaster and plan to try using an impact wrench with the air pressure turned down so I don`t strip out the inside . Grinding the Allen wrench socket so the beveled end is flat to get more contact. Because of location , I can`t get a straight shot at it and have to use a swivel and some long extensions . Still trying to not pull the engine, but if I have to , I have to. Hopefully , the impact wrench on low pressure will break it loose . I also may try putting an ice cube on the plug to try and shrink in some .
Wish I could get a full swing at it with a hammer , I could break it loose .... this is how I broke hydraulic valve port plugs loose , and they were up to 2" NPT .
 
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38Chevy454

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X2 on cooling is the method you want. Alum expands more than steel, so conversely it shrinks more at cold temps. You want to make more clearance for the threads, so cooling the alum plug (and possibly heating the steel if you can without heating the plug) will accomplish this.

A low budget cooling is get some canned air, like used on electronics/computers. Turn can upside down and liquid comes out. Most are very cold when the liquid evaporates.
 
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matt_i

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I would contact the builder. If they used red lloctite then heat will be required. Aluminum fasteners ****. However the good news is it can be drilled and retapped, but that will require removing the pan for proper cleanup...
 
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raddksn

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38Chevy454 said:
X2 on cooling is the method you want. Alum expands more than steel, so conversely it shrinks more at cold temps. You want to make more clearance for the threads, so cooling the alum plug (and possibly heating the steel if you can without heating the plug) will accomplish this.

A low budget cooling is get some canned air, like used on electronics/computers. Turn can upside down and liquid comes out. Most are very cold when the liquid evaporates.
Click to expand...
I would try this before anything else!!!
 
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bobcat

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Yes , I need to monitor oil temps on the track . When it reaches 240 , I have to back off to save an engine .
I`m heading out this morning to try and find some dry ice or something in a can that will freeze/cool the plug before trying the impact wrench .
Already checked with the builder and no locktite was used , just multiple heat and cool cycles while doing dyno runs .
I also may wait until tomorrow to give the PB Blaster more time to soak in .

Thanks
 
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Tony G

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Drill out the center as large as possible and stick an extractor in it. Then find another engine builder.
 
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bobcat

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No luck ..... heated the bung and then put dry ice on the aluminum plug several times and then put the impact wrench on it and it won`t move . I feel the problem is the extension has to be at almost a 45 degree angle to clear everything with the engine in the car and with the play in the swivel and flexing of the small extensiions ( about 18" ) , I`m not getting full force to the plug . Haven`t stripped ti out yet where the allen socket goes in , so tomorrow the engine comes out so I can get room to work ..... and worst case , drop the sump and take it to a machine shop to get the plug out .

That thing is coming out one way or the other !!!!!!!
 
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Balor

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Try a Torx socket bit that is a tad size bigger than the allen hole and tap it into the allen hole, when the Torx is seated install a ratchet and remove. rngr1
 
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AMCguy

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Galling (cold welding) of aluminum threads as they tighten, is a common problem. I suspect you will be removing the oil pan to get to the bottom of your problem.

I have first hand knowledge of this phenomenon. It once cost me a position on a racing team.

Here are a couple of links to help better understand it.

https://www.fastenal.com/en/72/galling

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galling
 
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Nexussian

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My suggestion, not having tried to remove the plug in my Canton pan, call Canton.

Mine came with a plug like that installed, I got mine new from Canton (several years ago, dealer was back ordered, drop shipped from Canton).

I'm sure they've dealt with that more than a few times.

If they can't, or won't help, I've been scheming on mine.

If I have to remove the plug from mine, and after this many years if it gives me the issues you describe, I'll make a pin drive spanner.

With the engine on a rotissiary type stand, drill holes into the plug on the thickest part of the flat side of the Allen (six flats, six holes) drill matching holes in a piece of steel to use as a handle.

If you have to lightly tap the wrench, pins and plug together, that's OK (alternately drill and tap the handle, grind the screws to points and use the tool to center punch the drill points, replacing them with screws with the threads turned off on the portion that engages the plug).

With a hole in the tool that lines up with the socket hole in the plug, and the wrench installed, heat the pan, not the plug with a torch, ~350° F should be enough, then:

*) With insulated gloves on(*

*)in a well ventilated area(*

(a face shield and a shirt with sleeves and a high collar are a good idea too, shorts and open toe shoes R Bad M'Kayy? :lol: kidding about the tone only, all of those are suggested)

Apply a loosening torque to the plug, while you drop a chunk of dry ice in the hole, continue your "loosening" torque, it should break loose, don't stop turning until it is out.

I know it seems obvious, but drain the oil first, you likely don't want to fill the offside valve cover and piston skirts with oil. ;)
 
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bobcat

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AMCguy , thanks for the links .

Success !!! Took the engine out where I could get to it , put dry ice on the plug for about 20 minutes and then hit it about 10 times with a hammer . Tried a hand Allen wrench ( still space limited ) and finally it grudgingly came out , but it was still a bear . Looked and the engine builder was right , no locktite or any other sealer was on it .
Engine is now back in ....about 2 hours from engine removal to re install . and now for the ****** etc .

FWIW ..... all aluminum for FE 482 with all the good stuff , i.e. solid rollers steel crank and rods CNC heads , beehive springs etc .
671 hp at 6200 rpm and 656 ft/lbs of torque at 4200 rpm .... and 500 ft/lbs at 2900 rpm . A really flat torque curve , which gets you out of the corners pretty well .
 
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LS6 Tommy

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bobcat said:
AMCguy , thanks for the links .

Success !!!

FWIW ..... all aluminum for FE 482 with all the good stuff , i.e. solid rollers steel crank and rods CNC heads , beehive springs etc .
671 hp at 6200 rpm and 656 ft/lbs of torque at 4200 rpm .... and 500 ft/lbs at 2900 rpm . A really flat torque curve , which gets you out of the corners pretty well .
Click to expand...

Glad you got the plug out.

Any more details on the valve train? I'm just curious because not all solid rollers should be used with beehives, especially at over .750". It all depends on how aggressive the profile is. I know Comp said beehives were a no-go with my Extreme Energy solid roller...

Tommy
 
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AMCguy

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Assembling a new all aluminum engine in the teams shop. All I had to do was screw in a stupid aluminum 3/4'' NPT hose fitting. Because I'm super **** and really wanted to make a good impression, I didn't want any more thread sealant showing on the threads than was absolutely necessary. So I decided to lightly screw the fitting in by hand to get an idea how far in it would sit.

I inserted it and twisted with my fingers until I felt a little resistance. I gripped it a little tighter and gave it maybe another quarter turn. That was dumb. I tried to turn it backwards but it wouldn't move. I put a wrench on it thinking it would only require a little pull with one finger or a twist of my wrist. Nothing.

I immediately knew I was in trouble. I knew it was galling but figured with just a little effort it would come out with maybe a little damage to the threads that the sealant would surely make up for. Again nothing.

I got the brilliant idea to advance it a little bit more and then try to back it out. It easily went in a little more (not even 1/16 of a turn), but when I tried to go backwards, I realized I just made a huge mistake.

It was now really in there and going to take a big wrench and some effort to get it to turn backwards. There was definitely going to be damage that thread sealant wasn't going to fix. I knew we were going to need to re-tap to clean up the threads in the engine and use a new fitting. Why I didn't let the crew chief know before this, I have no idea.

I put the appropriate deep socket on a two foot breaker bar. I didn't think it would be required but it fit the part well and l felt I had a better control than pulling on a big wrench. It felt like breaking a rusty lug nut free on a one ton truck. It turned and came out. I thought I'd be looking at a fitting with no more threads on it, but to my horror, it took out all the female threads in the engine and left a gaping hole that no pipe tap was going to fix.

We didn't make qualifying the next day.
 
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APEowner

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bobcat said:
FWIW ..... all aluminum for FE 482 with all the good stuff , i.e. solid rollers steel crank and rods CNC heads , beehive springs etc .
671 hp at 6200 rpm and 656 ft/lbs of torque at 4200 rpm .... and 500 ft/lbs at 2900 rpm . A really flat torque curve , which gets you out of the corners pretty well .
Click to expand...

Cool! What's it in?
 
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bobcat

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LS6 ,APEowner .. engine is in an ERA 427 S/C Cobra replica I built for street and some track . Car is 2693 lbs with me and all fluids .
LS6 .... you asked about the valve train , I lied about the springs as they are conical springs and not bee hive . Cam is a custom Bullet Cam lobe design for my builder . He did say lift is only .500 " and spring pressure is 500 lbs over the nose . He has some tricks he does with lobes and head porting that allow this . Valve train is T&D roller rockers with end supports and light weight valves . Sorry , can`t release cam specs . It`s interesting that the last engine used a Comp Cams hydraulic roller and .650 lift and made 60 less hp ..... and broke 4 valve springs ..... this one should be a lot easier on the valve train .
This engine makes power smoothly up to 6600 rpm before it really falls off and can hit 6800 before valve float .
 
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