Sub-contractor issue

[Hdtheater]

One of the sub contractors on my build is causing issues. I do have a General Contractor. However, the plumber is coming over and complaining to me about his relationship with the GC.

The conflict is caused by an issue with a broken joint for the drain under the slab. The plumber refuses to accept responsibility and is delaying the build. He has told me he will put a lien on my house, etc... If the GC does not pay him.

It's in the contract to get a lien release before final payment is made. I know I am covered there, but don't what other steps I should take before this turns into a mess. I tend to agree with the GC on this one, but how ugly can this get?

Anyone experience this before? Any pointers?

-Eric

 

[MG44]

Tell him you spoke to the lawyer and he said start digging

 

[Bob C]

Sounds like a matter to be settled between the GC and the Sub Contractor. That's one of the reasons you have a GC. Personally, I' think the GC should handle the problem now, get his customer happy and deal with the sub contractor after your job is finished.

 

[Hdtheater]

The GC is working to handle it. His lawyer sent a letter and has already lined up another sub if the plumber does not fix his problem within 24 hours of 4:00 today.

Other than the lien release, are there any other steps I should take?

-Eric

 

[Scud67]

^^^ This. It is the reason you have a GC in the first place. It is his problem.
Is there any language in the contract about delays not caused by you (as the owner)? Is there anything in the contract about a "finish date" and/or any penalties if the date is not met? If there is, I would remind someone of that fact.

 

[Hdtheater]

No penalties for late finish.

 

[Zeke]

Here in CA all licensed contractors have to carry a bond. If they refuse to do the work the bonding company pays for the work to be done. This is not an immediate remedy and can take months. Your situation sounds minor but could blow up later in court. The best thing to do is sit everyone down and decide what to do or not to do.

Sounds to me like the plumber is saying someone stepped on his pipe while preparing or placing the concrete. **** happens. The worse part of it is that they need to cut out a section of the slab to get to the repair.

Everyone needs to chip in on this one.

 

[Hdtheater]

They ran a camera down the pipe and there is no break. What most likely happened us that the pipes were still full of water when we had a freeze and and the joint popped. These are just drain lines and would never have happened in a finished situation.

I agree that **** happens. Not really anyone's fault.

Should the plumber have drained water after inspection?

Should the concrete contractor checked the pipes before he poured concrete?

Should the GC called the plumber back out to check the pipes after the freeze?

Probably yes to all three, but is any of that common? Or is this a lessons learned experience?

-Eric

 

[Regnar]

Start taking pictures and document conversations, save messages even the ones with your GC on this matter.

If he threatens you again let him know he signed a contract with the GC and that he has the money. Let him also know that a release of lien is required before any payment is made, and that he signed it. Tell him to have fun with all that paper work and that it might be quicker to just do his freaking job.

In all reality what will most likely happen is the Plumber is gonna go work another job and say F'U. Then your GC will bring in someone else to fix his problem and deduct it from the amount owed to the Plumber. The GC will wave the check in front of the Plumber and he will hand over a Release of Lien so he can get his money.

 

[Majordisorder]

Plumber should have been paid for work done. If he had been, there would be no problem having him come back the day the pipes were exposed and make the necessary repair for additional pay.

 

[Tim The Tool Man]

The reason you have a CG is so you don't have to deal, or worry, about these issues. What Zeke said is probably true, somebody hit his pipe but Geez the plumber sounds like a pansy. I would **** it up and fix it ASAP and maybe ask the GC for some more $$ but I as a sub I would NEVER approach the home owner about the issue. Nor would I threaten a lien! The plumber is supposed to have insurance for this reason. Since you are already talking with him why don't you ask to see his liability certificate. That will surly scare the poop out of him!

 

[Hdtheater]

The reason you have a CG is so you don't have to deal, or worry, about these issues. What Zeke said is probably true, somebody hit his pipe but Geez the plumber sounds like a pansy. I would **** it up and fix it ASAP and maybe ask the GC for some more $$ but I as a sub I would NEVER approach the home owner about the issue. Nor would I threaten a lien! The plumber is supposed to have insurance for this reason. Since you are already talking with him why don't you ask to see his liability certificate. That will surly scare the poop out of him!

Completely agree!

Start taking pictures and document conversations, save messages even the ones with your GC on this matter.

If he threatens you again let him know he signed a contract with the GC and that he has the money. Let him also know that a release of lien is required before any payment is made, and that he signed it. Tell him to have fun with all that paper work and that it might be quicker to just do his freaking job.

In all reality what will most likely happen is the Plumber is gonna go work another job and say F'U. Then your GC will bring in someone else to fix his problem and deduct it from the amount owed to the Plumber. The GC will wave the check in front of the Plumber and he will hand over a Release of Lien so he can get his money.

I have been journaling the whole build. One of the benefits of this site!! My pictures is what we used to show there was still water in the pipe.

Plumber should have been paid for work done. If he had been, there would be no problem having him come back the day the pipes were exposed and make the necessary repair for additional pay.

He was paid 70% upfront and was complaining about not getting full payment to me. Besides the leak, the plumbing has not passed final inspection nor has he covered up the trench in my yard. He gets paid when his job is done. Otherwise, he would never come back.

-Eric

 

[Regnar]

Could the trench be the cause of the pipes freezing? If you want to have real fun let the plummer know that you already emailed the inspector about the pipe being popped. Dont think he will get his final inspection to pass. Hopefully its written somewhere in his contract about a final inspection before payment.

 

[Hdtheater]

Could the trench be the cause of the pipes freezing? If you want to have real fun let the plummer know that you already emailed the inspector about the pipe being popped. Dont think he will get his final inspection to pass. Hopefully its written somewhere in his contract about a final inspection before payment.

No, they isolated the leak to be where the shower drain connects to the vent pipe. When they ran the camera there was no evidence of cracks or breaks in the line. That is why the opinion is that it was a bad joint.

The slab contractor has already stated "show me the break and I'll cover the cost." Of course the camera shows otherwise.

 

[KRB52]

The GC is working to handle it. His lawyer sent a letter and has already lined up another sub if the plumber does not fix his problem within 24 hours of 4:00 today.

Other than the lien release, are there any other steps I should take?

-Eric

Bang the plumber's wife. (Thought you could do with a laugh about now.)

 

[Hdtheater]

Bang the plumber's wife. (Thought you could do with a laugh about now.)

That'll show him!

 

[beltfeed]

At this point the plumber has shown his true colors. Have the GC pay him off for the work he has done and remove him from your project. Sounds like he has a replacement plumber all ready to take over. The lien threat would have only happened once, after that he would be legally banned from the work site. Nobody should have to put up with that type of kiddie BS.

 

[Red05GT]

Who paid for the camera to be run down the pipe? The cost for the repair will be less than
2 hours of an attorneys time. Just sayin. If I was the GC and my Sub approached my
customer in this manner, it would be the last time he was on my job.

 

[radrush]

The worse part of it is that they need to cut out a section of the slab to get to the repair.

Everyone needs to chip in on this one.

No pun intended......

 

[stage20]

Who paid for the camera to be run down the pipe? The cost for the repair will be less than
2 hours of an attorneys time. Just sayin. If I was the GC and my Sub approached my
customer in this manner, it would be the last time he was on my job.

The truth. End of story.

 

[Hdtheater]

Who paid for the camera to be run down the pipe? The cost for the repair will be less than
2 hours of an attorneys time. Just sayin. If I was the GC and my Sub approached my
customer in this manner, it would be the last time he was on my job.

The plumber brought his camera over and then took his ball and went home.

 

[southalabama]

Just let the gc and his lawyer figure it out. He will get it fixed.

Don't worry. Be happy.

It will work out. Let the gc worry. You are covered.

 

[nolimits76]

As others mentioned, this is the reason you have a GC. Sure, a sub can elevate an issue to the owner, but as the owner you should demand a meeting be held between all 3 of you so that all of you can communicate and work it out. Ultimately, your contract is with the GC. However, if there is signs of foul play (doesn't sound like it) then you need to know so you can determine how to handle your GC.

In regards to payments, I think 70% upfront is rather generous. I prefer to allow a mobilization fee, which usually includes enough money for them to buy their materials and get things to the jobsite. Then I like progressive pay estimates based on the amount of work complete. If the contractor had a contract for $20,000, and you paid him $3,000 to mobilize and 40% of the work was complete in the first billing cycle, it would look something like this, all this assuming you have the proper payment clauses in your contract:

$8,000 - Work Complete ($20,000 x 40%)
($3,000) - Previously Paid (Mobilization)
-----------------------------------------------------
$5,000 - Adjusted Gross Total Due
($500) - 10% Retainage (released upon final completion & submission of lien waiver)
-----------------------------------------------------
$4,500 - Due this Progressive Pay Estimate

 

[wnstwolf]

To this day, 3 years after completion of new house, I am paying for poor Sub Contractor (Plumber) Like you it all started over a dispute that at the timewas resolved to the dislike of the plumber. Un known to me things that were in the walls were not 100% and started to leak and cause headaches after I moved in. Complete hassle and disgust with situation.

If things get heated see if you can cut your losses and get new plumber. If he is a stand up guy this may not happen. Not sure if there is a tool out there at Harbor Freight that determines stand up guys?

This weekend I am tearing out tile and opening a wall to fix a tub filler that was piped with lines that went along an outside wall. This was somewhat hidden behind a structural member and have to say no one caught it. Plumber should have know as well as inspector but the way it was done was almost criminal (insulation stuck in there to hide it) Well of course it froze in the tundra winter we had this year.

Bad taste lingers long after the sweet smell of a good deal! Buyer beware!!

 

[volleyball]

Why was the drain filled wit water? Was it for a leak test? If the plumber did the test, and it could freeze, why didn't he open the drain?
You have to leave it to the GC as they are responsible, but you do have a lot of sway on how it gets resolved.

 

[Hdtheater]

The water was there for leak test. After it passed, should it have been drained? What is common practice here?

 

[jnkpile]

The leak test was done on a drain, correct? The drain would have had to have been blocked off to perform this test, correct? Whoever blocked the drain should be responsible for unblocking it once the test was completed. Leaving a drain pipe blocked and full of water is ridiculous, especially so in a cold climate. That's just asking for trouble.

 

[C96]

The general contractor is holding the bag here, he is ultimately responsible for the work of his subs and making sure the job is completed correctly in accordance with all local codes and ordinances along with the job being finished in a timely manner.

Years ago, the GC would have his key subcontractors that would follow from job to job, same concrete guy, framer, plumber, electrician, HVAC etc. All the trades worked together in harmony with respect for one another and the work they performed. Things are different now, lowest bid seems to get you in and the different trades don’t seem to give a hoot about respect for others or the job itself. Just a bunch of strangers trying to get their work in first and screw the next guy. Hurry get in, get out and move on to the next one.

Sad to say, its no wonder the water got left in the piping. People just don’t care and tend not to look after one another so much anymore even if they suspect a potential problem especially if strangers.

I too believe the person that took responsibility for filling the pipe with water, should have also been the one responsible to drain it after the test.

It’s unfortunate this happened, but the GC is still ultimately the one to get it handled.

 

[Hdtheater]

Appreciate all the feedback you guys have been giving me. The GC has been handling this and the plumber has until 4:00 Central today to respond. The GC already has another plumber lined up and ready to do the work tomorrow to keep the schedule moving forward.

Unfortunate that it happened, but the process seems to be following everything you guys have said.

If you want to follow the build and the progress as we go, I am journaling the build here:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=219070

Thanks,

-Eric

 

[Hdtheater]

Well, the next phase has happened. The plumber put a lien on our property today because the GC has not paid him. I don't see how he thinks he is done. What a pain in the ***.

-Eric

 

[Mustang51js]

Well, the next phase has happened. The plumber put a lien on our property today because the GC has not paid him. I don't see how he thinks he is done. What a pain in the ***.

-Eric

I didn't even know they could do that, has he passed his inspection,on the permits around here it says final payment due after work is completed and passed. That plumber sounds like a crybaby. How much work would it have been to fix it,since usually the gc would rip up the concrete, let the plumber fix his stuff and then have concrete guys fix the concrete. Doesn't seem like a hard job

 

[Daniel Dudley]

On my jobs, I would cut the hole and repair the slab, and the plumber would fix the pipe.

I would never let something like this hold a project back like it was some kind of big deal.

 

[KRB52]

Check what the law is in your juristdiction. That mechanics lien may have a finite life. I believe in Connecticut, they have 30 or 60 days to either get paid or file a law suit. Either way, the lien goes away after a set time period.

If the plumber still whines to you about being paid and not fixing the problem, maybe a word or two to the authority who issues his license (if required in your area) would rattle him. Typically, building codes have some mention of the work being performed in a "workmanship like manner". If the digging shows that he did a poor job that wasn't "workman like", he may have his license suspended or revoked.

 

[ConCretin]

Check with you lawyer but KRB52 is correct, a lien will expire in a set period of time unless the plumber actually files suit. The time periods vary by state but are usually 90 to 120 days from the date labor or materials were supplied. Unless you are trying to close on a loan during this period, the lien won't directly affect you.

It's easy to file a lien and it's probably just the plumbers attempt to pressure on you and the GC. It seems unlikely but if the plumber does file suit however, it will expose you to legal costs and potentially worse. It sounds like your GC is making an effort but I'd urge the GC to resolve this and protect yourself financially.

Depending on the terms of your agreement, you should be entitled to lien waivers from all major subs and suppliers thru the period covered by the last payment before making any subsequent payments.

This is the GC's problem but the nature of lien rights just made it yours too.

 

[Red05GT]

I have to wonder if there's not more of an underlying issue between the plumber and the
GC? Does the GC owe the plumber for other work and the plumber has had enough of
being put off being paid till the next job. Has the GC been slow to pay his subs. Did
the GC fail to backfill around the foundation and address standing water so even if the
plumber pulled the test plug, the pipes would still stand full of water. Was this the GC's
usual plumber or did he seek out a cheaper bid and is now paying the price. Is owner
involved in any way with site work or responsible for any support work on this project,
i.e. providing heat or jobsite utilities.
If the problem has been isolated to one pvc fitting under a tub or shower I don't get this
much push back from the GC and the plumber. **** happens. 15 minutes with a demo
saw, 15 minutes with a sledge hammer, 15 minutes with a shovel, plumber cut out joint,
glue in new fitting, 15 minutes, backfill hole 15 minutes. Next concrete pour on this site,
i.e. sidewalk, or garage approach, wheel in a couple of barrows of crete, mag float it off
15 minutes, call it good. So you're at 1.5 to 2 hrs. There's just got to be more bad blood
or back story here.

 

[59 wagon man]

unless he had a pressure test on the lines then a frozen drain line would never have caused this as the water has a place to expand. the only damage from a frozen pipe is when it is under pressure and freezes

 

[Regnar]

Wow....It took him longer to fill out the paper work then to fix the problem. Something else is going on here and you are getting caught in the middle of this temper tantrum.

Why hasn't the plumber asked for a final inspection. This worries me more than anything. For example this is not written into his contract with the GC. Also is the ditch filled yet?

Don't worry to much. Most GC's work for the final payment and well we all know he doesn't get his money until that lien is gone. He will be fighting harder to get rid of this than you.

Just out of curiosity what are these two fighting about? What is the GC doing to make this right now?

 

[jrsulo]

This **** is between the G.C and the plumber.....has nothing to do with you,let them duke it out themselves !!

 

[Red05GT]

Your GC will have to supply you with a lien release from each and every one of his subs,
and himself. This truly is the GC's problem.

 

[Hdtheater]

I honestly don't see why it has come to this level. This is the first time they have done business together, as told to me. Should be their last too. So, I don't think it goes beyond my project.

The GC has had his lawyer give the plumber notice and a replacement is scheduled to be here tomorrow.

The plumber's view is that he is done. He can't get through final inspection because the GC hasn't fixed the leak.