Sub-Panel at first disconnect location

[Sam_i_am]

I would like to explore the possibility of installing a sub-panel, mounting it next to the first means of disconnect panel - (panel has breakers). Please reference "Shop power - Wi" in this forum for alot of other stuff regarding this project scheduled for early this summer.

First question is: can I run the cabling directly from the lugs of the first means of disconnect box to the sub - (sub has breakers)? ....... or does code require that a circuit breaker be used to feed the sub?

 

[Bert_]

Your going to have to give a little more information. Where are the lugs you are referencing?

 

[mike93lx]

What is the disconnect that you are using? Just a switch? If you don't have it already, maybe a meter main makes more sense so you can have a integrated panel

 

[wyliesdiesels]

have pics?

 

[Torque&Recoil]

I think I know what you are asking. Not sure about legalities because I am not a licensed electrician. But when I did this, YES, I ran the sub panel from a breaker in the main box. If you do it that way, you can totally disconnect the power going to the sub panel during the wiring process. Also, it is just a lot easier. Otherwise, you are going to try to hook up the sub panel to hot lugs in the main box, and that sounds flat out risky. I assume you are asking the question because you don't have any more slots in the main box. You can free up slots with double breakers, or else move some circuits to the sub panel.

 

[Sam_i_am]

Torque, spot on! However, I would like to throw a few things out there to see what may or may not work on this deal. Prioritizing concerns are Safetey, Legalities and Code.

So, aerial power lines to the property come in from above to the power company's pole in the back yard with a transformer mounted atop the pole. Power meter and main power box (first means of disconnect) are mounted to the pole. Main disconnect enclosure is a Square D outdoor rated breaker box containing an 200 amp main breaker. The enclosure also has 4 double pole circuit breaker spaces, 2 of which are populated. 1 of the 4 spaces has a 100 amp breaker feeding the house and the second populated space has a 30 amp breaker feeding power to the well pump, leaving 2 of the 4 spaces empty.

And I agree in saying that lug to lug tampering would be a risky state of affairs to say the least.

But, would it be considered a stretch to ask the power company to come out to pull the meter for maybe an hour to make the connect?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Why would you need to call the power company to shut off power so you can connect a circuit to the main service panel?

Just shut the main 200a off...

 

[Innovate1]

Why would you need to call the power company to shut off power so you can connect a circuit to the main service panel?

Just shut the main 200a off...

Not completely clear but think they want to feed the sub off the incoming lugs on the pole panel.

To the OP - In some cases you can have multiple panels connected to the meter base - for example I have two 200A panels for my house but it's a larger 320A meter base. I don't know the rules for that and it may vary from location to location but it would likely mean a larger meter base and dual lugs in the meter base. You would need to check with your POCO and AHJ. You have an open breaker spot. The normal way to do a subpanel is to feed it from a breaker in the existing panel. Doing that is a LOT less trouble and doesn't involve the POCO. Why not just do that?

 

[pattenp]

I'm confused too. As said, use the two empty breaker spaces to feed the subpanel. You just turn off 200A main and add the breakers for the subpanel.

 

[mike93lx]

But, would it be considered a stretch to ask the power company to come out to pull the meter for maybe an hour to make the connect?

The poco will have no problem coming out to pull a meter for permitted work...its done all the time. The amount of time you get will depend on what they have going on.

That said, why do you need a meter pulled here?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Not completely clear but think they want to feed the sub off the incoming lugs on the pole panel.

To the OP - In some cases you can have multiple panels connected to the meter base - for example I have two 200A panels for my house but it's a larger 320A meter base. I don't know the rules for that and it may vary from location to location but it would likely mean a larger meter base and dual lugs in the meter base. You would need to check with your POCO and AHJ. You have an open breaker spot. The normal way to do a subpanel is to feed it from a breaker in the existing panel. Doing that is a LOT less trouble and doesn't involve the POCO. Why not just do that?

He isnt totally clear but my take is he wants to connect a sub[panel] to the main (first means of disconnect). if he connected to the service before the first means of disconnect (ie. the meter pan) then it wouldnt be a subpanel, it would be another main service panel.... details matter here...

 

[Sam_i_am]

There ya go wylie ..... Let's say that!

So if I could restart this thread I would open with this:

"I would like to explore the possibility of installing" ..... 2 main panels at the pole. One would be first means of disconnect feeding the house and the other feeding another building and an outdoor receptacle.

..... accomplishing the above feeding off of the main lugs of existing box.

 

[Innovate1]

He isnt totally clear but my take is he wants to connect a sub[panel] to the main (first means of disconnect). if he connected to the service before the first means of disconnect (ie. the meter pan) then it wouldnt be a subpanel, it would be another main service panel.... details matter here...

True, details matter but since they weren't clear on what they were doing I didn't take the word subpanel too seriously either. It did occur to me that if they were hooking to lugs on the meter base or input to the other panel that it wouldn't be a subpanel. And from the followup it seems it is not a subpanel they way they are wanting to do it.

 

[Innovate1]

There ya go wylie ..... Let's say that!

So if I could restart this thread I would open with this:

"I would like to explore the possibility of installing" ..... 2 main panels at the pole. One would be first means of disconnect feeding the house and the other feeding another building and an outdoor receptacle.

..... accomplishing the above feeding off of the main lugs of existing box.

So you are back to what I said a long time ago:

You would need to check with your POCO and AHJ.

I don't know if what you want to do is allowed or exactly how they will expect you to do it or since you are increasing the max load if they will require a larger meter base. Maybe others here have some idea but I think it really comes down to local authorities. If they allow you to do the work yourself is another matter that varies by location. So even if someone here tells you what they think is the answer you still need to check for yourself.

You don't show a location in your posts but from your reference to your other thread I gather you are in Wisconsin.

 

[Sam_i_am]

That's why I'm not an electrician, I understand now that using subpanel created confusion!

I the case of two main panels such as this if this is even possible ....... would both enclosures need to be bonded?

 

[Sam_i_am]

Pic of the meter

 

[Bert_]

I assume you are working with the same stuff as your other thread? Really would help if you clear this up.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

That's why I'm not an electrician, I understand now that using subpanel created confusion!

I the case of two main panels such as this if this is even possible ....... would both enclosures need to be bonded?

yes since they both come off the meter base. theyre both main service panels, which is the first means of disconnect...

 

[mike93lx]

Why are you so interested in making these both mains instead of adding the new one as a sub?

 

[ddurrett896]

"I would like to explore the possibility of installing" ..... 2 main panels at the pole. One would be first means of disconnect feeding the house and the other feeding another building and an outdoor receptacle.

..... accomplishing the above feeding off of the main lugs of existing box.

What's the rational?

If you added an 100amp breaker in the main, then ran a sub off that, you can disconnect the other building by flipping 1 breaker.
If you want to isolate the house, just flip the 10-20 breakers on the individual panel, leaving the 100amp breaker on.

Yea it's a little more work flipping each breaker, maybe an additional 30 seconds.

 

[Zeke]

2 meters = min monthly service charges. Isn't there an easier way to do this? Are you trying to get more than 100 amps at the new panel?

Please explain the end game.

 

[mike93lx]

2 meters = min monthly service charges. Isn't there an easier way to do this? Are you trying to get more than 100 amps at the new panel?

Please explain the end game.

One meter, two mains. It's SOP with 320a service using dual 200a panels. But doing it to feed a 100a panel feels odd

 

[Zeke]

One meter, two mains. It's SOP with 320a service using dual 200a panels. But doing it to feed a 100a panel feels odd

I've never understood double tapping on the customer side of the meter. It's just something we don't see in the city. It's always a sub.

 

[mike93lx]

I've never understood double tapping on the customer side of the meter. It's just something we don't see in the city. It's always a sub.

320's are designed for it. Guess you could do one huge panel but dual 200's are really common.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I've never understood double tapping on the customer side of the meter. It's just something we don't see in the city. It's always a sub.

Its not double tapping which would be 2-wires under 1 lug. Its called dual lugs. 1 wire per lug

 

[Zeke]

Got it. well, I don't see much beyond 200A residential so I'm unfamiliar with that type of panel. I did work on a house with what they told me was 400A service and indeed the utility cabinet was almost a walk in. Really looked about like a reach in closet with double 3 foot doors. Lots of gear in there. I now wonder about the clearance rule on that. Another topic for another thread.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Ive only seen one house here in town that had true 400a service.

The main panel was the height and size of a commercial panel and it had a CT meter and cabinet...

Ive yet to see a 320a(400a) service...

 

[Norcal]

Ive only seen one house here in town that had true 400a service.

The main panel was the height and size of a commercial panel and it had a CT meter and cabinet...

Ive yet to see a 320a(400a) service...

Only have seen 1 residential 1Ø service with CT's & it was a Zinsco switchboard. As far as I know it's still there.

 

[Sam_i_am]

"We can't let you do it", says Authority having local Jurisdiction! In order for me to run juice to the shop he says we must revise the "entrance platform". So that's what I'm going to do.

 

[beemerphile]

Ive only seen one house here in town that had true 400a service.

The main panel was the height and size of a commercial panel and it had a CT meter and cabinet...

Ive yet to see a 320a(400a) service...

I have a 320a service. It feeds two 150a service disconnects. The first goes through-wall to my shop DP. the second goes through a generator transfer switch to my house.

 

[Bert_]

"We can't let you do it", says Authority having local Jurisdiction! In order for me to run juice to the shop he says we must revise the "entrance platform". So that's what I'm going to do.

Assuming you are talking about your utility company.

I read your other thread. If you want any useful information you need to post those details here.
All you need to do is run the shop wire up the pole and crimp it on after the pole top

 

[Innovate1]

This has been discussed for over 6 months. In the OPs other thread he said he talked to the AHJ back in September. If anyone else is interested the thread is here:

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/threads/shop-power-wi.503071/

Pictures of equipment on the pole but no sketch of layout of buildings, pole, etc. I'm out...

 

[Sam_i_am]

Some of the stuff you read on line is simply not true. MHF and URD are not the same! Especially considering both can be used in direct burial applications.

Also, in our area, you can use a breaker size larger than 90 amps when using URD, if buried untrayed, which is not the case with MHF.

You've been a huge help guys, thanks for all your help.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Some of the stuff you read on line is simply not true. MHF and URD are not the same! Especially considering both can be used in direct burial applications.

Also, in our area, you can use a breaker size larger than 90 amps when using URD, if buried untrayed, which is not the case with MHF.

You've been a huge help guys, thanks for all your help.

Huh? That doesnt make sense

The amapacity of the wire is determined by the size and type. Both #2 al URD and MHF have a 90a ampacity.