Sub Panel Ground Question
- Thread starter rockcrawler
- Start date
OP
rockcrawler
Well-known member
Yeah, I found their website yesterday. Thanks. I just can’t see enough of the jacket to see the writing on it to determine what it is. I’m not sure how I’ll be able to tell. I may have to disconnect the cable on each end and pull it out on one end enough to read the jacket.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Why are you wondering? The ground is wrapped in paper... It's NM-B and can't be underground or outdoors, at all
OP
rockcrawler
Well-known member
Gotcha.
OP
rockcrawler
Well-known member
Thanks.
So, it looks like my shopping list consists of:
110’ of #3 THWN (2 blk/1 wht), 110’ of #8 THWN (green), 2 - 1/2” x 8’ ground rods, 2 - 1/2” ground rod clamps, and some #6 solid copper ground wire.
Does this sound about right?
OP
rockcrawler
Well-known member
Or:
#1 Aluminum (x3 power/common)
#6 Copper (x1 ground)
??
#1 Aluminum (x3 power/common)
#6 Copper (x1 ground)
??
OP
rockcrawler
Well-known member
So, I have a new question. If I will be grounding the 1st panel in the shop with the two grounding rods, will I still need to run a ground from the main (house) panel when I replace those wires with the proper wiring?
dave*99
Well-known member
YES The ground wire between the house and shop serves a different function than the ground rods. You need both.
OP
rockcrawler
Well-known member
Thank you
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
you should reference the pics in post #3 here
Electrical FAQs
Welcome All I have started this sticky as an FAQ thread for info on the basics that are encountered countless times every week on here. Hopefully this will help some. If u have a topic request, go ahead and post it. And if you have an FAQ you would like covered let me know.... Or if you...
www.garagejournal.com
OP
rockcrawler
Well-known member
you should reference the pics in post #3 here
Electrical FAQs
Welcome All I have started this sticky as an FAQ thread for info on the basics that are encountered countless times every week on here. Hopefully this will help some. If u have a topic request, go ahead and post it. And if you have an FAQ you would like covered let me know.... Or if you...
When looking at the detached building image, it shows to bond the ground bar to the sub panel. Will scraping some paint off the box under the bar and mounting the bar with the two supplied screws be sufficient?
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
you dont need to scrape off paint. the 2 screws and threads should be sufficient as they are listed for that install
OP
rockcrawler
Well-known member
Thanks
OP
rockcrawler
Well-known member
Update:
I finally got the chance to get the two 5/8” x 8’ grounding rods installed today. They are buried 6’ apart and about 6” or so underground. I have a #6 solid ground wire running between the two and run through the slab and into the panel. I also got the separate ground bar mounted in the panel and moved all the grounds over to it. Now the grounds and neutrals are separated as they should be.
I have also received the x3 #1 aluminum power wire and x1 #6 copper ground wire so that I can replace the Romex that was used from the house to the shop by the original “electrician”. That will be done later.
I finally got the chance to get the two 5/8” x 8’ grounding rods installed today. They are buried 6’ apart and about 6” or so underground. I have a #6 solid ground wire running between the two and run through the slab and into the panel. I also got the separate ground bar mounted in the panel and moved all the grounds over to it. Now the grounds and neutrals are separated as they should be.
I have also received the x3 #1 aluminum power wire and x1 #6 copper ground wire so that I can replace the Romex that was used from the house to the shop by the original “electrician”. That will be done later.
Last edited:
luvtheheat
Well-known member
What are the different functions of the two grounds? If all the grounds are ultimately bonded together ( as in post #3 pictures in the sticky thread referenced earlier), what are the different purposes?
Not arguing, just want to learn.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Code requirement to ensure proper grounding. Other option is a single rod but it requires proving a certain resistance level, and that necessitates expensive equipment.
dave*99
Well-known member
I suspect he is asking about the difference between the ground conductor running from the house to the garage compared to the pair of ground rods. I think that is what he means by two grounds.
I'll wait for his reply before typing that explanation out, or you may want to if you have the time.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
are you referring to the EGC running between the panels and the grounding electrodes?
if so its explained in the electrical FAQs sticky post #4
Electrical FAQs
Welcome All I have started this sticky as an FAQ thread for info on the basics that are encountered countless times every week on here. Hopefully this will help some. If u have a topic request, go ahead and post it. And if you have an FAQ you would like covered let me know.... Or if you...
www.garagejournal.com
luvtheheat
Well-known member
Innovate1
Well-known member
Having a 100A breaker feed the second panel in the shop is ok but likely overkill. Unless there is a need to put big loads on the second panel it seems like 50 or 60A would be sufficient. You might even be able to use some of the current feed line from the house.
justsam
Well-known member
Do you have a photo of the main house panel that feeds the shop, specifically the breaker that feeds the shop?
OP
rockcrawler
Well-known member
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
looks like you have a GE panel so that Eaton 100a breaker should not be in there. needs to be replaced with a GE breaker
A Eaton CL would be OK, but a GE is the ideal solution, I really don't like classified breakers unless have to use them.
sparky 1971
Well-known member
While I agree 100%, I've always wondered what difference between the BR and CL breakers is other than packaging and price.
They chose not to have the Zinsco II classified, seems like it would be cheaper to have the BR classified then manufacture & stock two different product lines, but must be a marketing & bean counter decision.
sparky 1971
Well-known member
It's just a hunch, but I bet they are the same thing. Someone decided they could make a little more money putting them in a different package and selling them as Siemens and GE compatible. If they charged the same amount for BR breakers it would cut into the sales of the panels and nobody would use them. I don't use anything BR unless a place already has a BR panel, but from what I remember, it seems BR is the cheapest line the box stores carry.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
OP has a BR2100
I know there a BR in there which why I wrote "Zinsco II" in a earlier post, but commented that a Eaton CL could be used but don't care for classified breakers 'cept when have to.
justsam
Well-known member
Regarding the main house panel breaker feeding the shop sub panel, I should have been more clear if you had a picture with the dead front off the main panel. Just want to confirm that there is no transition from one cable type to another somewhere along the route. Please only do this if you are comfortable removing the dead front.
Also, in the picture of the sub panel what is the armored cable off to the bottom right? At the time of shop construction was the electrician ever talking about a ufer ground or did you see any wiring to rebar?
Also, in the picture of the sub panel what is the armored cable off to the bottom right? At the time of shop construction was the electrician ever talking about a ufer ground or did you see any wiring to rebar?
alfredeneuman
Well-known member
Why not "Zinsco BR" instead?
BR/Zinsco II?Why not "Zinsco BR" instead?
OP
rockcrawler
Well-known member
I‘ll get an inside pic in a couple of days when I get a chance. Are you talking about the MC cable running behind the panel in the first pic? All of the electrical in the shop was wired with MC. I don’t remember the electrician saying anything about a ufer ground. All of the electrical was done after the shop was completed and just before spray foam, so there wasn’t any wiring to rebar that I know of.
OP
rockcrawler
Well-known member
Absolutely nothing surprises me when it comes to the electrical work that was done on my shop. I just found out the other day that the motion flood light that was installed over the back door has no junction box. The wires just come into the shop and were joined with the MC with wire nuts and covered with spray foam. I found it buried in the spray foam when I ran the EMT for my second shop panel.
Last edited:
sparky 1971
Well-known member
If a UFER was installed, it wasn't connected to. There would be a ground wire running to it and there is nothing that matches that description in the panel. The ground rods take its place.
OP
rockcrawler
Well-known member
Pic of my new sub panel in the back of the shop. It’s not currently connected to the panel at the front.
It is not code compliant to use white phase tape on a conductor smaller then 4 AWG, it must have white colored insulation.Pic of my new sub panel in the back of the shop. It’s not currently connected to the panel at the front.
OP
rockcrawler
Well-known member
That is 4 awg. But, I guess that means I have to remove the red tape from the white wire going into the breakers for my mini splits. I thought I was supposed to mark that red or black somehow so I just used phase tape.
Last edited:
That is fine, the grounded (neutral) needs to have white or gray colored insulation, and a grounding conductor needs green colored insulation if it smaller then 4 AWG, what was done to reidentify the white on those 240V circuits is just fine, and no need to change it & explains the 25A breakers.That is 4 awg. But, I guess that means I have to remove the red tape from the white wire going into the breakers for my mini splits. I thought I was supposed to mark that red or black somehow so I just used phase tape.
justsam
Well-known member
I may be getting fooled by the close up photos but that looks too small for4ga, and too large for 14ga. How large or how far away are these mini splits that they need to be fed with 4 ga wire?