Sub panel/Main Panel Dilemma

[ColoradoToy91]

Just joined up- great site. I recently moved into a new house with only one 110v receptacle and one light(bulb) in the garage. I inspected my main panel today and there are a few issues.

There is one vacant slot for a breaker in my main panel and, therefore, I am unable to run a sub panel without relocating a circuit currently wired into the main panel.

Also, my current panel is a 125 amp panel with a 100 amp main breaker. I can go up to a 125 amp breaker based off of the 0/1 Al wire from the meter box into my main panel (at least that is my understanding).

It also bothers me that when this house was wired in 1989 they mixed neutrals and grounds.

I would like to have at least 2- 220v receptacles and a couple 20amp 110v receptacle runs on two sides of the garage. I plan to run 4- 4' T8 fixtures off the existing lighting circuit in the garage.

What is the best way to meet my needs? Do i need to upgrade my service and wiring from the meter to 150 or 200 amp? Can a sub panel be run as is and manage loads? Obviously I am not an electrician, but I am confident in doing this my self and to code.

Pictures:
Unlabeled bottom right is A/C

What my welder, plasma, compressor are used for
https://scontent-b-sea.**.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10268449_10152809787819478_2340771390537218870_n.jpg?oh=ed4a069d0a9ee1b3d1523fbef36a1a3b&oe=5481949D

 

[ColoradoToy91]

Box is a GE TLM1212R just as an FYI

 

[Stuff]

What kind of loads in the garage?

You could just change the dryer breaker to a slimline and move it to the left and then put in a 60 amp feed to the garage.

Long term you should be replacing the whole thing with a bigger panel.

Neutrals and grounds OK to be mixed as it is at the service disconnect.

 

[justsam]

Not sure why you have two ganged breakers for "general lights". Were there some grow lamps involved?
Also it is not clear why dishwasher/disposal are ganged, or kitchen/microwave.
In regard to going to 125 Amp I will let someone with more knowledge of that panel answer. You may also be able to add another breaker position where the front punch out is shown.
Do you have gas or electric dryer?

 

[pattenp]

The cheapest route will be to put in something like a 60A breaker in the empty space and put a sub-panel in the garage and manage your loads. But in the long term upgrading to 200A service would be best. It depends on how much you want to spend.

 

[pattenp]

Those are MWBC (multiwire branch circuits).

Not sure why you have two ganged breakers for "general lights". Were there some grow lamps involved?
Also it is not clear why dishwasher/disposal are ganged, or kitchen/microwave.
In regard to going to 125 Amp I will let someone with more knowledge of that panel answer. You may also be able to add another breaker position where the front punch out is shown.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

I never could understand why people install those small panels where you have to use those split-1/2 size breakers.
The standard sq-d home line panel Ive used for the last 20 yrs on my installs is a full size 20/20 space for a 100a service,sometimes Ill use a 24/24.
A 100a service is more than adequate (spell check) for 90 percent of the residential jobs Ive ever come across,if not Ill jump right to a 200a service.
Price difference for materials is minimal between a 150-200a service.

 

[Git]

Can your panel handle a quad breaker? If so you could replace the two pole 30 amp breaker in the bottom right with a quad breaker to feed a sub panel

http://www.lowes.com/pd_151323-296-...&pl=1&currentURL=?Ntt=quad+breaker&facetInfo=

http://www.startribune.com/local/yourvoices/140688183.html

 

[Aceman]

I'd most likely do a service change and give you a panel with some REAL space. All your cables seem to come through one hole. While technically an NEC violation, it would make replacing your panel that much easier!

 

[ColoradoToy91]

What kind of loads in the garage?

You could just change the dryer breaker to a slimline and move it to the left and then put in a 60 amp feed to the garage.

Long term you should be replacing the whole thing with a bigger panel.

Neutrals and grounds OK to be mixed as it is at the service disconnect.

I will look into the slimline and move things accordingly. I will have to see how long we plan to stay in this place before I invest a lot of money in a new main panel.

Thoughts on this sub panel?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002YSPS8/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Not sure why you have two ganged breakers for "general lights". Were there some grow lamps involved?
Also it is not clear why dishwasher/disposal are ganged, or kitchen/microwave.
In regard to going to 125 Amp I will let someone with more knowledge of that panel answer. You may also be able to add another breaker position where the front punch out is shown.
Do you have gas or electric dryer?

Electric dryer, would like to go gas on the stove if we stay long term. I was thinking about going to a 125 amp main breaker to allow that 25 extra amps for surge on my welder arc starting or compressor kicking on

The cheapest route will be to put in something like a 60A breaker in the empty space and put a sub-panel in the garage and manage your loads. But in the long term upgrading to 200A service would be best. It depends on how much you want to spend.

Not enough space to run the breaker and sub panel as is

I never could understand why people install those small panels where you have to use those split-1/2 size breakers.
The standard sq-d home line panel Ive used for the last 20 yrs on my installs is a full size 20/20 space for a 100a service,sometimes Ill use a 24/24.
A 100a service is more than adequate (spell check) for 90 percent of the residential jobs Ive ever come across,if not Ill jump right to a 200a service.
Price difference for materials is minimal between a 150-200a service.

A lot of things in this house make me scratch my head. Nothing like a foreclosure

Can your panel handle a quad breaker? If so you could replace the two pole 30 amp breaker in the bottom right with a quad breaker to feed a sub panel

http://www.lowes.com/pd_151323-296-...&pl=1&currentURL=?Ntt=quad+breaker&facetInfo=

http://www.startribune.com/local/yourvoices/140688183.html

From the wiring diagram on the panel- i dont think so, but ill double check. Never knew this existed

 

[pattenp]

I was thinking the open space could handle a slimline DP breaker like the 50A one up towards the top.

 

[ColoradoToy91]

I'd most likely do a service change and give you a panel with some REAL space. All your cables seem to come through one hole. While technically an NEC violation, it would make replacing your panel that much easier!

Was it a NEC violation in 1989 This house is as old as me!

I would obviously not be able to replace the panel "legally," but maybe I found it that way. Take a look at the other side of the panel in the garage

 

[ColoradoToy91]

Alright based off the replies here is my current plan-

Move 30A A/C circuit to the currently empty slot with this breaker:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Q-Lin...HQP230/100356518?N=5yc1vZbm1eZ1z0x9j6Z1z11vjb

Replace the 2" 30A breaker with this 60A Breaker to feed my sub panel:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Q-Line-60-Amp-2-in-Double-Pole-Circuit-Breaker-THQL2160/100676698

Replace my 100A main with this 125A main to increase load capacity slightly:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Q-Line-125-Amp-2-in-Double-Pole-Circuit-Breaker-THQL21125P/100140853

Still trying to select a sub panel. I would like to stay with GE for the sake of same breakers etc. Looking at this panel currently:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Power...?N=5yc1vZbm2wZ1z0x9j6Z1z11ottZ1z11xh6Z1z11za5

Looking to add to 110v receptacle runs and two 220v runs

 

[Stuff]

Move 30A A/C circuit to the currently empty slot with this breaker:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Q-Lin...HQP230/100356518?N=5yc1vZbm1eZ1z0x9j6Z1z11vjb

You will need to move the kitchen breaker to the bottom - these thin 2-pole need to straddle the two buses.

Replace my 100A main with this 125A main to increase load capacity slightly:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Q-Line-125-Amp-2-in-Double-Pole-Circuit-Breaker-THQL21125P/100140853

You will need the power company to disconnect power first. Wait to see how the current 100 holds.

 

[pattenp]

The 125A breaker you linked to is a plug-in breaker you need a main breaker. I think this is the main breaker you need - General Electric THMB125CP 2P 125 Amp.

Alright based off the replies here is my current plan-

Replace my 100A main with this 125A main to increase load capacity slightly:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Q-Line-125-Amp-2-in-Double-Pole-Circuit-Breaker-THQL21125P/100140853

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Alright based off the replies here is my current plan-

Move 30A A/C circuit to the currently empty slot with this breaker:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Q-Lin...HQP230/100356518?N=5yc1vZbm1eZ1z0x9j6Z1z11vjb

Replace the 2" 30A breaker with this 60A Breaker to feed my sub panel:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Q-Line-60-Amp-2-in-Double-Pole-Circuit-Breaker-THQL2160/100676698

Replace my 100A main with this 125A main to increase load capacity slightly:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Q-Line-125-Amp-2-in-Double-Pole-Circuit-Breaker-THQL21125P/100140853

Still trying to select a sub panel. I would like to stay with GE for the sake of same breakers etc. Looking at this panel currently:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Power...?N=5yc1vZbm2wZ1z0x9j6Z1z11ottZ1z11xh6Z1z11za5

Looking to add to 110v receptacle runs and two 220v runs

U cant just swap the main breaker. The wire between the meter and breaker and the meter and pan needs to be checked to make sure its rated for the higher ampacity and unless youre very experienced working around live wires, the PoCo will need to shut the power off.

 

[pcpro15]

Since almost all of your wires come in the one interior wall bay... I personally would be inclined to move the panel indoors, and upgrade to a 150 or 200 Square D QO panel.

 

[Diesel_D]

I have never seen a main panel outside. How common is this and what about water getting in?

 

[warrenw]

100 amp main is plenty. It isn't additive. You can add a 50 or 60 amp sub for your garage as is. A home owner never draws more than 35 - 40 amps at any one time, ever.


Sent from my phone using Tapatalk

 

[Charles (in GA)]

This is a GE or Midwest (GE owned) panel. It uses a unique stab that has a special U shaped piece welded on each side of each standard stab. The U shaped part does not interfere with the installation of standard 1" wide breakers such as the double pole (2" wide) 30 amp in the lower RH of the panel, yet allows for the installation of individual half inch wide breakers, and inch wide true double pole (common trip + handle tie) breakers that are 1" wide and straddle two stabs.

Go to Home Depot and buy a GE THQP230 breaker, and I'm going to guess that you want to install a 60 amp sub panel, so you will need a THQL2160 breaker.

Remove the bottom left breaker marked "kitchen" (leave the wire attached) and then install the 30 amp THQP230 in its place, it will take the place of the kitchen breaker and also pick up the lug of the stab below it. Now, install the Kitchen breaker in the bottom most position.

Disconnect the wires from the existing 30 amp breaker on the lower RH and re-route them to the THQP230 you just installed.

Remove the existing 30 amp, and install in its place, the THQL2160 you bought, and connect the new wires to your sub panel, to this breaker.

GE makes the "thinline" breakers up to 50 amp, so its necessary to buy a full size, 2" wide Double Pole 60 amp, unless you are willing to drop down to a 50 amp feed to your sub panel. If you do this, you would use a THQP250 and install it on the lower right so as to leave a blank ½" space above it, and a blank ½" space below it. In this case you will need to purchase some ½" wide blanking plates, GE p/n THFILLER, and install them above and below the new 50 amp.

Note that it is impossible to install the half width double pole breakers incorrectly, the only way they will install is between two regular stab blades, on the special U shaped clips. They physically cannot straddle a standard stab blade, thus they are "idiot proofed". These breakers will only install in GE and Midwest panels designed to accept them.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

I have never seen a main panel outside. How common is this and what about water getting in?

Though I have no first hand experience, from what I have seen on the net, it is fairly common in the Western US. Many breaker and panel companies make special "western" panels that are a combination of a meter/main and breakers all in one, mounted flush on the outside of the house.

Charles

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Alright based off the replies here is my current plan-

Move 30A A/C circuit to the currently empty slot with this breaker:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Q-Lin...HQP230/100356518?N=5yc1vZbm1eZ1z0x9j6Z1z11vjb

Replace the 2" 30A breaker with this 60A Breaker to feed my sub panel:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Q-Line-60-Amp-2-in-Double-Pole-Circuit-Breaker-THQL2160/100676698

Replace my 100A main with this 125A main to increase load capacity slightly:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Q-Line-125-Amp-2-in-Double-Pole-Circuit-Breaker-THQL21125P/100140853

Still trying to select a sub panel. I would like to stay with GE for the sake of same breakers etc. Looking at this panel currently:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Power...?N=5yc1vZbm2wZ1z0x9j6Z1z11ottZ1z11xh6Z1z11za5

Looking to add to 110v receptacle runs and two 220v runs

This is what I describe above, but to install the new 30 amp, you have to move the kitchen breaker to the very bottom, leaving two ½" spaces straddling two different adjoining stabs. The new 30 amp physically cannot be installed in the bottom spaces as that is one stab and it is a double pole and needs two separate stabs.

Charles

 

[Charles (in GA)]

U cant just swap the main breaker. The wire between the meter and breaker and the meter and pan needs to be checked to make sure its rated for the higher ampacity and unless youre very experienced working around live wires, the PoCo will need to shut the power off.

From reviewing his photos, it appears that the service from the meter is 1/0 AL and according to Table 310.15(B)(7) of the 2011 code, this is acceptable for 125 amp dwelling service, so indeed the OP could upsize to the breaker that pattenp shows in post #15

EDIT: in looking at these on the internet, the main breaker kit is a mounting base and a plug on breaker. You already have a base installed, so all you need is a standard 125 amp plug on breaker to swap out.

Indeed, the POCO would have to remove the meter or otherwise shut off power to swap out the main breaker. If you talk nice to them, they may be willing to do this and stand and wait while you do this, and without a permit.

Do not pull the meter yourself. In some states it is a felony to do so, leave it to the POCO to decide to either pull the meter or trip the breaker on the pole.

Charles

 

[Charles (in GA)]

I never could understand why people install those small panels where you have to use those split-1/2 size breakers.

I agree, go with the largest panel possible, even if the feed is not. It is nice to have working room and room to expand and it doesn't get so hot, with the larger breakers.

Most likely it was used because a full 40/40 200 amp panel in a raintite (3R ?) is probably quite expensive and I'll bet this is much cheaper, being smaller. Had it been a standard indoor panel, the price difference is not much.

Charles

 

[ColoradoToy91]

This is what I describe above, but to install the new 30 amp, you have to move the kitchen breaker to the very bottom, leaving two ½" spaces straddling two different adjoining stabs. The new 30 amp physically cannot be installed in the bottom spaces as that is one stab and it is a double pole and needs two separate stabs.

Charles

Completed moves and installed new breakers as described

From reviewing his photos, it appears that the service from the meter is 1/0 AL and according to Table 310.15(B)(7) of the 2011 code, this is acceptable for 125 amp dwelling service, so indeed the OP could upsize to the breaker that pattenp shows in post #15

EDIT: in looking at these on the internet, the main breaker kit is a mounting base and a plug on breaker. You already have a base installed, so all you need is a standard 125 amp plug on breaker to swap out.

Indeed, the POCO would have to remove the meter or otherwise shut off power to swap out the main breaker. If you talk nice to them, they may be willing to do this and stand and wait while you do this, and without a permit.

Do not pull the meter yourself. In some states it is a felony to do so, leave it to the POCO to decide to either pull the meter or trip the breaker on the pole.

Charles

Nice edit- it is indeed attached to a base and removable. I dont want to deal with having the meter pulled so it will stay as is unless there is a need to increase service by 25 A

 

[ColoradoToy91]

On a side note- parents sold their farm and I came upon one of these in the barn- 945 model.
http://www.heatinggreen.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/REH_cove.pdf

The way I interpret this:
945-C 46”W x 10”H x 7.5”D 1000watts 22 lbs.
240 volt/4.2 amps 208 volt/4.8 amps 120 volt/8.3 amps 277 volt/3.6 amps

Is I can run a 240v run to it and it will only draw 4.2 amps vs 8.3 amp on 120v. Which should I run and why? And am I correct that I would run a 5A breaker on the 240 or 10A on 120?

Thanks for all the help guys

 

[Norcal]

On a side note- parents sold their farm and I came upon one of these in the barn- 945 model.
http://www.heatinggreen.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/REH_cove.pdf

The way I interpret this:
945-C 46”W x 10”H x 7.5”D 1000watts 22 lbs.
240 volt/4.2 amps 208 volt/4.8 amps 120 volt/8.3 amps 277 volt/3.6 amps

Is I can run a 240v run to it and it will only draw 4.2 amps vs 8.3 amp on 120v. Which should I run and why? And am I correct that I would run a 5A breaker on the 240 or 10A on 120?

Thanks for all the help guys

Those breakers will be a bit hard to find, 10A breakers can be found but not very common, but those breakers will be too small for the load, use a 15A.

 

[ColoradoToy91]

Those breakers will be a bit hard to find, 10A breakers can be found but not very common, but those breakers will be too small for the load, use a 15A.

15A it is:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Q-Lin...N=5yc1vZbm1eZ1z0x9j6Z1z11z3t#customer_reviews