Sub Panel N00b. Advice Wanted

[xyster101]

Need some advice on wiring up my detached 4 car shop before the inspector shows up. I just powered up my 100amp sub panel for the first time and have 2 outlets installed for the garage door opener. I have been using an extension cord the last year (hit it with the plow 3 times). I dug a 4' deep trench from the house to the shop, ran Mobile Home wire (4 strand) from my main panel to the sub panel in the shop through conduit inside the house and through the 50' trench. I do have PEX run in the trench also, in a separate conduit.
The sub panel has separate neutral and grounds in a Square D Homelite 24 circuit. The sub panel has a 4awg copper ground running from the ground bar to a 8' ground rod outside.

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The main panel is a 200amp Square D QO located in my house garage. The main panel was a hot mess and I spent 6 hours pulling everything out of it, installing new bus bars and adding an additional bar on the left side of the box. Here is the main bus bar before I touched it.





Here is half way through the tear apart.




In the final pics of the main you can see that I moved a number of the grounds/neutrals to the left side also by using a piece of 4awg aluminum wire to a 8" bus bar screwed to the box. I cut out 15 feet of wire from the box. At some point before I bought the house, some idiot wired in a generator box, 2 ductless AC units, a new bathroom, and must not have had a wire cutter or a drill. The NM wire was run on the outside of the drywall in the garage and there were 2' leads inside the main.








Anyone see any mistakes or problems?

 

[Norcal]

You cannot run neutrals to the ground bar kit in the main panel. It's a mess.....

 

[Aceman]

I don't know where to even start....

 

[pattenp]

I'll stick to a simple thing..... The neutral and ground need to be properly identified, marked white and green. Another issue is the cable that's being used is Secondary Distribution UD which is 3 black phase wires with a yellow striped neutral and that type of cable is not allowed to be run inside of the structure if it only carries a USE-2 rating. If it's also marked RHW-2 or RHH then it can be used inside in conduit. The odds are it's only USE-2 rated. And yeah.. what a mess.

 

[xyster101]

I get that the panel is a mess. I did not wire it, I have only tried to clean it up (which I spent 6 hours on).

I understand why I might not be able to use the MH wire piece to go from the additional bus bar. I can replace that with bare copper easily enough, thanks for the advice.

Can someone explain why I have to label my neutral and ground bus bars when the neutrals and grounds go into the same bus bars, that are mounted on the same metal plate, that connect to the same aluminum wire that is all fastened to a metal box? I don't want to be difficult, just curious the reason they have to be labeled and separate when it is all connected together.

I understand why they have to be separate in the sub panel due to ground loops. Thanks

 

[alfredeneuman]

All of the neutral wires must be removed from the ground bar, and each landed in separate holes in the neutral bar.

What are planning on doing with all that NM beneath the panel? In any case it needs to stapled.

You've got at least 225° of bend in the conduit before leaving the garage. Did you direct bury the cable, or run conduit all the way?


If you called the electrical inspector today he would undoubtedly write you a correction notice with dozens of issues.

 

[BreeStephany]

At the first point of disconnect, the neutral and ground can be bonded, however, at all points past the first point of disconnect, all grounds and neutrals must remain separate.

Neutral and ground wires must be clearly marked as such. Neutral wires must be marked with white tape the entirety of the length of wire in the panel or box and ground wires must be marked with green tape the entirety of the length of wire in the panel or box. Bare copper can be used for the ground.

Only 1 wire can be in a terminal / lug / screw

There may only be 360 degrees of rotation in a conduit before a pull box is required, however, as a general practice, you should not exceed 180 degrees (2 90 elbows) whenever possible on pulls between panels.

Whenever romex / nm cable enters a box, a cable clamp must be used.

All NM cable must be stapled within 6" of the box.

Also, try to avoid using wirenuts in an panel except when abandoning a connection, in which case you would separate the neutral and load wires and wirenut them together to mark them as abandoned.

As a general practice, you should always bundle your grounds together in one bundle, your neutrals together in another and then bundle your load wires and pull them off one at a time at the height of the circuit you are going to. This will make for a neat and tidy panel where circuits are easily identified and future work can be done in a neat and tidy manner.

I've been a few years out of practice from the trade, so I am sure there are things that I have missed, but thats what I can see from a quick glance.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Bree,

The white and green marking tapes don't need to run the whole exposed length of wire. The Code says "at terminations". A single wrap would do just fine.

As far as the NM being stapled, it's 12" away from the box, not 6".

 

[acer66]

Also, try to avoid using wirenuts in an panel except when abandoning a connection, in which case you would separate the neutral and load wires and wirenut them together to mark them as abandoned.

Is that to keep it clean or is a code violation to extent wires or to use the panel as a junction box?

Thank you

 

[pattenp]

Splicing wires in the panel box using wire nuts doesn't look the neatest but is not a NEC violation.

 

[BreeStephany]

Bree,

The white and green marking tapes don't need to run the whole exposed length of wire. The Code says "at terminations". A single wrap would do just fine.

As far as the NM being stapled, it's 12" away from the box, not 6".

Thank you for the clarification Alfredeneuman, its been at least 6, almost 7 years since I worked in the electrical trade, so my memory is a bit dusty. I know that when we were working, the inspectors liked to see marking tape the on the entire exposed length, despite what the code stated. They were much more lenient on residential, but almost always would mention wanting more defined marking in commercial applications.

 

[kingchevy]

Sorry to pile on, but couldn't you have drilled that stud for the conduit to go through instead of hacking an 8" section out of it. I hope that's not a load bearing wall.

 

[xyster101]

Thanks for all the advice on things. I will mark the wires with tape. I thought the markings on the wire were good enough. I can't remove the wire nuts inside the box, they are for the generator box someone else installed and the wires are too short. I will move the neutrals off the added ground bus bar.
The wire is in conduit the whole way to the garage, through the house and in a 4' drop trench. There are 5 90* and 2 45* elbows in the last run with out a pull box. It was not that hard to pull the wires and I did not know about the 360* rule with pull boxes. Too late for that, I hope the inspector does not care about it after the fact.
I know the box is a mess, but other people have worked in it and added to it, not my mess but I did clean it up. Looks like some electrician was in a rush.
The sub panel will look good in the garage.
I'm really thankful for the advice.

 

[whitedogone]

A few violations for sure. Anyone call out the 100 amp overcurrent protection of the subpanel feeder yet? Kinda hard to see the rating of that on a blurry picture.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yeah if thats #2 AL then its rated for 90a. Also, the OP never responded about the rating of the wire- whether its rated RHH/RHW or not...

 

[whitedogone]

I would probably allow the use-2 in that location. It's a garage, and limited in length, but it's really up to your AHJ. Your biggest issue is going to be that when he shows up and sees that, he is going to be looking for all the violations. Fix what you can before he shows up. BTW, cut that shelf back before hand. Working Spaces article 110.26.

WDO

 

[pattenp]

To provide some info as to why the NEC says USE-2 only rated wire is to be terminated outside of the structure is because the wire insulation is not fire resistant and can burn and can spread fire within the structure.

 

[xyster101]

A few violations for sure. Anyone call out the 100 amp overcurrent protection of the subpanel feeder yet? Kinda hard to see the rating of that on a blurry picture.

What does this mean? How do I address this?

I would probably allow the use-2 in that location. It's a garage, and limited in length, but it's really up to your AHJ. Your biggest issue is going to be that when he shows up and sees that, he is going to be looking for all the violations. Fix what you can before he shows up. BTW, cut that shelf back before hand. Working Spaces article 110.26.

WDO

What is the distance of clearance in front of an electrical panel?

To provide some info as to why the NEC says USE-2 only rated wire is to be terminated outside of the structure is because the wire insulation is not fire resistant and can burn and can spread fire within the structure.

I was told by the place I bought the wire and a few members here that the Mobile Home wire I bought is rated for direct bury and use in conduit.

 

[xyster101]

Yeah if thats #2 AL then its rated for 90a. Also, the OP never responded about the rating of the wire- whether its rated RHH/RHW or not...

The wire reads as follows:

2 AWG AL USE02 XLPE SUN RES (UL)

So you're right as I need to change to a 90 amp breaker.

 

[alfredeneuman]

The wire reads as follows:

2 AWG AL USE02 XLPE SUN RES (UL)

So you're right as I need to change to a 90 amp breaker.

That's NOT Mobile Home Feeder cable. It's for use ONLY outdoors.

The distance necessary from the face of the panel is 36" long and 30" wide.

What do you propose to do with the conduit violation with all the bends? You should have called the inspector out to do a trench & underground conduit inspection. Just sliding the conduit over the cable is a violation too

 

[Orionrising]

Is slid conduit a violation for Direct bury rated cable? Isnt the hundred amp breaker in the panel ok if labled as 90 available, and properly breakered at the source?

 

[alfredeneuman]

The conduit is to be run completely before any wire is installed in it regardless of the type of wire used.

The OP says he ran the conduit from end to end.

 

[whitedogone]

As I stated earlier, I would allow the use because it's in garage only and limited in length. The bend violation would be a bigger issue for me. Can you mount a weather tight j box on exterior side on the existing service load center and run correct cable from the load center to the j box and make the transition there? Using proper connectors, of course.

WDO

 

[ishiboo]

Yeah, use a junction box outside and run SER to it. It's such a short run it's going to be easy and cheap to fix correctly, and SER will be a lot easier to deal with then trying to make conduit legal in that space, especially with the number of cables coming out the bottom.

Use plenty of noalox on your aluminum connections. I don't see it, but maybe you're neater than I am.

 

[pattenp]

I was told by the place I bought the wire and a few members here that the Mobile Home wire I bought is rated for direct bury and use in conduit.

Mobile Home Feeder can be direct buried and also used inside when in conduit, but the wire you have is not MHF, it's URD. MHF has 2 black conductors, 1 white striped neutral and a green ground. MHF is USE-2 rated but it also carries the RHH/RHW-2 rating.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

What does this mean? How do I address this?

What is the rating of the subpanel breaker in your main panel? If its 100a then its TOO big and needs to be 90a. The 100a breaker in your subpanel is fine @ 100a...

Is slid conduit a violation for Direct bury rated cable? Isnt the hundred amp breaker in the panel ok if labled as 90 available, and properly breakered at the source?

That depends on which panel youre talking about...If theres a 100a breaker in the main service panel feeding the subpanel, then it needs to be changed!

 

[xyster101]

Well looks like I will have to find a 90 amp breaker.
I was told that this wire would be fine inside conduit. I will talk to the inspector.
I did put noalox on the connectors, made a mess too.
What is wrong with having a few extra bends in my pipe? The wire was a pain to pull but it got caught on a joint.

Thanks for the help.

 

[FordTruckWench]

What is wrong with having a few extra bends in my pipe? The wire was a pain to pull but it got caught on a joint.

With too many bends, the wire may rub too hard against a bend as it is dragged through the conduit. This may abrade the insulation. You won't see the damage because it is inside the conduit. It may be fine initially, but at some future time, when the conduit fills with moisture, the circuit may short to the conduit - or to a bare ground wire run in the same conduit.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Well looks like I will have to find a 90 amp breaker.
I was told that this wire would be fine inside conduit. I will talk to the inspector.
I did put noalox on the connectors, made a mess too.
What is wrong with having a few extra bends in my pipe? The wire was a pain to pull but it got caught on a joint.

Thanks for the help.

The wire is fine in conduit...no problem there. Just need to have the correct breaker size...

 

[legotech7]

I hope this is the correct place to post my question. I tried searching,but I couldn't find anything specific to my quandary. So here I go ..I am adding a 100 amp sub panel to my new garage, I have a 200 amp main disconnect next to my meter with two breakers in it. One is a 60 amp and the other is 20 amps. My question would be , can I tap in to the panel next to the meter? I will be using a feeder cable,2-2-2-4 aluminum. From the main to the sub panel is apporx. 100 feet. In the pic is the main disconnect, next to the meter. I was told I could possibly tap into that to connect my service wire...

Any help with this would be greatly appreciated..
Thanks... Joe....

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I hope this is the correct place to post my question. I tried searching,but I couldn't find anything specific to my quandary. So here I go ..I am adding a 100 amp sub panel to my new garage, I have a 200 amp main disconnect next to my meter with two breakers in it. One is a 60 amp and the other is 20 amps. My question would be , can I tap in to the panel next to the meter? I will be using a feeder cable,2-2-2-4 aluminum. From the main to the sub panel is apporx. 100 feet. In the pic is the main disconnect, next to the meter. I was told I could possibly tap into that to connect my service wire...

Any help with this would be greatly appreciated..
Thanks... Joe....

You should start a new thread instead of hi jacking this one....

In the new thread take pics of the inside of the panel(with the covers off)...