Sub-panel Neutral Ground Bar & GFCI Issue

[Caddis295]

During a home inspection, it was discovered that my garage sub-panel still had the grounding bar connected to the neutral bar.

When the bar is removed, my GFCI outlets in the garage will not trip when tested.

What am I missing?

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[slow]

do you have 4 wire feeder from the main panel to the sub panel? If not, that is likely the issue. Depending on age, it may have been acceptable to use 3 wire for sub panel, when was it installed?

 

[Caddis295]

do you have 4 wire feeder from the main panel to the sub panel? If not, that is likely the issue. Depending on age, it may have been acceptable to use 3 wire for sub panel, when was it installed?

It does only have a 3 wire feed....

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[Bert_]

It does only have a 3 wire feed....

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Then the neutral MUST be bonded to ground.

You have created a very unsafe situation by removing the bond. Nothing in your garage is grounded without it.

For many years a 3 wire feeder with bonded ground was normal and completely up to code.

 

[7635tools]

The outlets won’t trip when tested. How are you testing them? With the test button on the outlet or a plug in tester? If it trips with the button on the outlet, then the gfi is working. If you’re using a plug in tester, then it won’t trip the outlet with no ground.


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[Caddis295]

Then the neutral MUST be bonded to ground.

You have created a very unsafe situation by removing the bond. Nothing in your garage is grounded without it.

For many years a 3 wire feeder with bonded ground was normal and completely up to code.

Thanks for the info.....I believe this panel was installed 5 years ago. I guess I will be calling an electrician tomorrow....

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[Caddis295]

The bonding bar has been reinstalled to the neutral.

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[Norcal]

Is the garage a attached or detached structure? If it was done 5 years ago still does not meet code for a detached building and never was allowed in a attached part either.e

 

[nadogail]

Thanks for the knowledge.

 

[Bert_]

Five years ago it should have been 4 wire feed with a separate neutral and ground.

But unless the feeder gets replaced with four wires the the bond needs to stay in place.

 

[sberry]

I buried a wire for a friend for future use. I hooked it in to the main and another bud of hers installed the garage panel. The work looked nice but I had to pen it up, sure as **** the ground wire not installed, dont remember what else but she said he commented,, I don't understand why there is 4 wires,, ha

 

[Aceman]

Oregon amended the NEC and still allows 3 wire feeders as long you meet the exceptions.

His area may have a similar amendment.

 

[Terry D]

As Bert already said, with only having 3 wires feeding your detached garage sub panel, you have to keep your grounds a neutrals bonded together. Whether is a code violation or not, you have lost your equipment ground. Which is a unsafe condition. The GFCIs need a ground to test them, but they will still trip on their own without a ground, so they will still work. But nothing else in the garage has a ground. Im not sure exactly when the code changed on requiring a 4 wire feeder to a detached garage, im thinking 2008. So if your garage was wired before then, it is grandfathered in. I am not cutting down all home inspectors, but I have dealt with a lot of **** like this with them because they don't know the codes.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The bonding bar has been reinstalled to the neutral.

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Is your garage attached or detached? This is important.

The GFCI wont trip when tested with a plugin tester because the ground pin on the outlet no longer has a connection to ground.

This however does not mean the GFCIs wont work because GFCIs do not need a ground wire conenction to function properly.

Oregon amended the NEC and still allows 3 wire feeders as long you meet the exceptions.

His area may have a similar amendment.

Do they allow them for subpanels in the same building as the main?

 

[Aceman]

Do they allow them for subpanels in the same building as the main?

Oregon allows 3 wire feeders just as the 2005 and prior NEC did, as long as you met the exceptions:

Detached structures, no other metallic paths between buildings, etc.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Oregon allows 3 wire feeders just as the 2005 and prior NEC did, as long as you met the exceptions:

Detached structures, no other metallic paths between buildings, etc.

I asked about attached structures not detached.

 

[Aceman]

I asked about attached structures not detached.

As I posted above, it's only allowed for detached structures with no other metallic paths, etc.

I don't think 3 wire feeders to an attached subpanel has ever been allowed. I've came across them in older homes, but I don't believe it ever met code.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

no they never met code but ive come across those dangerous animals myself as well

The OP has not told us if this is attached or detached so we need to tread lightly until he does