sub panel wiring

[CudaDude]

New guy here with questions regarding sub panel in detached garage. My FIL pretty much wired this in for me. He's an old school electrician and may not be up to code. I've got 3 wires coming from the main panel (black, red, white). I'm trying to figure out the white and ground. The white comes from the main panel neutral buss and goes to what you see in the pic and that's all. Does this provide ground also?

Another question is outlets that I install in the garage. If the sub panel is correct where do I put the neutral and ground going to the wall outlets?

BTW the small white is going out to a 220v

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Fire the FIL he is WAY BEHIND the code and now you got a mess to fix.

 

[Norcal]

Is this a recent installation? If so it does not meet current codes.

 

[ddawg16]

Black/Red....assuming 240Vac.

What you are missing is the earth ground. You need a 4th conductor from your main panel to your sub panel....but you also need 2 ground rods at your garage.

The neutral and ground do NOT get bonded together in that panel. Hence, you run separate neut and gnd to each outlet.

How many breakers in the sub? If more than 6 then you need a main disconnect breaker.

 

[CudaDude]

Specifics: Installed last Dec. 60a breaker at the main service panel going to the sub which has 4 slots for breakers but he told me to get the thin breakers so I could have up to 8 circuits, 2 of which are dedicated to the 220. No ground rods and from what I've gathered browsing the web there's no ground from the main panel either.

I'm down to the wire on a Birthday gift I need to get built for my daughter. can you suggest a way I can go ahead and wire up the wall outlets without having to rewire everything first? Can I temporarily run the white from the romex to the buss that currently hold the whites and leave the ground loose?

"The neutral and ground do NOT get bonded together in that panel. Hence, you run separate neut and gnd to each outlet."


Where do I attached the separate neut and grd in the panel? Do I need to add another buss?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

What type of wire wire was used for the feeder? If it is individual conductors then pull a #10 green THHN and buy a ground bar, appropriate model for your panel!

And no I wouldnt leave ground wires in the Romex cables disconnected! 2 wrongs dont make a right!

 

[Dyt]

I'm down to the wire on a Birthday gift I need to get built for my daughter.

Pun intended? Buy a current copy of the NEC. 2011 I think is the latest. Hardbound is pretty easy to read. I've got a 2008 three ring binder that takes some getting used to.

Don't ever leave the ground (bare wire) disconnected. Should the white return (neutral) come loose somewhere, what (who) becomes ground?

 

[CudaDude]

Yes, pun intended. From the looks of it i just need to run a separate grd from the main panel and add a separate buss for it in the sub panel. Shouldn't be to big a deal. Thanks everyone for the advice.

Dyt. I didn't think about me becoming the ground if the the white comes loose. Thanks

 

[Charles (in GA)]

That is a GE panel. Use only GE thin breakers in it, they plug on the small pieces welded to the sides of the stabs, visible in the pic.

Is the neutral bar in the pic insulated from the box itself? (except for the flattened strap with the green screw in it). If so, go ahead, and buy a ground bar, a GE bar. The big box stores carry them hanging in bags in the electrical section. There should be holes pre punched in the back wall of the panel, the holes will line up with the screws in the bar. Install it, and run your ground wires to it when you wire up your outlets. Also run the single, continuous, uninterrupted wire from the ground rods to it. No splices or connections allowed in that ground wire. Then when you get the ground run from the house to the garage, run it to the ground bar also, and REMOVE the flattened bar in the pic that is attached with the green screw.

With only 8 breaker positions, and two of them being 240v double pole breakers, then you will never have more than six handles, so by code, you do not need a disconnect at the garage.

Understand that at the house, if it has the main disconnect in the main panel, then it will have a ground/neutral bar that may be shared, but beyond that pane, it must remain separate, ground and neutrals.

If you have a disconnect on the outside of the house at or near the meter, your house panel will have two separate bars, one for grounds only, one for neutrals only.

The ground wire you will run from the house will only need to be a #10. I hope the wire is in conduit and is THHN type wire. Code allows a #10 ground on #6 circuit wires. Depending on the size of the conduit, you could end up pulling all of the wires back out and then pulling them (with the ground) back in again. Very problematic running a fish tape thru a conduit with wires and getting it back out again.

Charles

 

[CudaDude]

"Is the neutral bar in the pic insulated from the box itself?"

Yes. It has a rubber sheet between itself and the metal box.

" I hope the wire is in conduit and is THHN type wire."

It is. We did get that part right.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Pun intended? Buy a current copy of the NEC. 2011 I think is the latest. Hardbound is pretty easy to read. I've got a 2008 three ring binder that takes some getting used to.

Don't ever leave the ground (bare wire) disconnected. Should the white return (neutral) come loose somewhere, what (who) becomes ground?

NEC 2014 is hot off the presses but not in force yet!

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1455906727/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[Norcal]

NEC 2014 is hot off the presses but not in force yet!

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1455906727/?tag=atomicindus08-20

And California is going to adopt the 2011 in January. Currently on the 2008.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

And California is going to adopt the 2011 in January. Currently on the 2008.

Stupid!

Is there a site I can go to, to lookup what code cycle a particular city has adopted?

 

[Norcal]

Stupid!

Is there a site I can go to, to lookup what code cycle a particular city has adopted?

Nope because the State dictates when a code is adopted.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Nope because the State dictates when a code is adopted.

But Im not talking state, Im talking city.

 

[CudaDude]

Thanks so much for the info.

 

[Norcal]

But Im not talking state, Im talking city.

The State of California decides when cities, & counties adopt a code, & all of CA is on the 2008.

Back to the original topic.

 

[chicken89]

so, is the NEC 2014 more strict on issues? meaning, if I go by the 2014 manual/standard, will it pass the 2008 and 2011 manual/standards (whichever Indiana goes by)?
i'm wanting to do the same as the OP, but yet to do much research on the wiring and such.

 

[Norcal]

so, is the NEC 2014 more strict on issues? meaning, if I go by the 2014 manual/standard, will it pass the 2008 and 2011 manual/standards (whichever Indiana goes by)?
i'm wanting to do the same as the OP, but yet to do much research on the wiring and such.

The 2014 is irrelevant as it has not been adopted yet, the code adopted by the jurisdiction you live in is the only one you can use, nothing earlier & nothing later. The one exception I could see if someone had a open permit taken out when a earlier edition was in effect.

According to Mike Holt, Indiana is on the 2008 NEC w/ some deletions, (arc fault & tamper resistant receptacles).

http://www.mikeholt.com/necadoptionlist.php