subpanel choice

[u2slow]

The plug-on neutral panel is a waste if you aren't using the GFCI/AFCI breakers that take advantage of it. You will find the 'skinny' form-factor breakers only come in smaller sizes. AFCI/GFCI breakers are usually full size.

All 15 & 20A receptacles require GFCI protection with no exceptions in shops, garages, & outbuildings, even for ceiling mounted ones.

I'll get onboard with GFCI/AFCI rules when its retroactive and applies to the whole continent. Until then... my shop - my rules.

 

[Norcal]

I'll get onboard with GFCI/AFCI rules when its retroactive and applies to the whole continent. Until then... my shop - my rules.

AFCI's are not required for shops yet which is fine with me, not having GFCI's is just being a Luddite.

 

[u2slow]

AFCI's are not required for shops yet which is fine with me, not having GFCI's is just being a Luddite.

I could suggest the Luddite remark for AFCI just the same. I'm not required to have GFCI in my shop...

 

[mendozer]

Oh yes I just looked. For how few plugs I'll have I'll just do gfi outlets. Do the 240 circuits need gfi too?

 

[Norcal]

Oh yes I just looked. For how few plugs I'll have I'll just do gfi outlets. Do the 240 circuits need gfi too?

Not at this time.



Edit: the 2020 NEC will require GFCI's for all 125V, & 250V, receptacles locations required to have GFCI protection now.

210.8(A) Dwelling Units.
All 125-volt through 250-volt receptacles installed in the locations specified in 210.8(A)(1) through (A)⁠(11) and supplied by single-phase branch circuits rated 150 volts or less to ground shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.

(1)
Bathrooms

(2)
Garages and also accessory buildings that have a floor located at or below grade level not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and areas of similar use

(3)
Outdoors

Exception to (3): Receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied by a branch circuit dedicated to electric snow-melting, deicing, or pipeline and vessel heating equipment shall be permitted to be instal⁠led in accordance with 426.28 or 427.22, as applicable.

(4)
Crawl spaces — at or below grade level

(5)
Basements

Exception to (5): A receptacle supplying only a permanently installed fire alarm or burglar alarm system shall not be required to have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection.

Informational Note: See 760.41(B) and 760.121(B) for power supply requirements for fire alarm systems.

Receptacles installed under the exception to 210.8(A)⁠(5) shall not be considered as meeting the requirements of 210.52(G).

(6)
Kitchens — where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces

(7)
Sinks — where receptacles are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) from the top inside edge of the bowl of the sink

(8)
Boathouses

(9)
Bathtubs or shower stalls — where receptacles are instal⁠led within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside edge of the bathtub or shower stall

(10)
Laundry areas

Exception to (1) through (3), (5) through (8), and (10): Listed locking support and mounting receptacles utilized in combination with compatible attachment fittings installed for the purpose of serving a ceiling luminaire or ceiling fan shall not be required to be ground-fault circuit-interrupter protected. If a general-purpose convenience receptacle is integral to the ceiling luminaire or ceiling fan, GFCI protection shall be provided.

(11)
Indoor damp and wet locations

 

[mendozer]

ok gotcha. so that leaves me with 3 or 4 circuits to be GFI, outlets will be much cheaper than breakers. One member above mentioned the plug on neutral is a waste without GFI breakers but it saves wiring time anyways since you just wire hot and neutral to the breaker, ground to the panel ground, and snap it in right? I like less wiring and mess.

 

[mike93lx]

ok gotcha. so that leaves me with 3 or 4 circuits to be GFI, outlets will be much cheaper than breakers. One member above mentioned the plug on neutral is a waste without GFI breakers but it saves wiring time anyways since you just wire hot and neutral to the breaker, ground to the panel ground, and snap it in right? I like less wiring and mess.

How does that save time? Landing a neutral on a bar vs a breaker is an immaterial difference. Plus if you are DIY, you aren't paying someone by the hour. A few extra minutes doesn't matter and there is no less wire.

 

[JamesW84]

This may pertain to you, and please double check, but I believe that if you put a GFCI outlet as the first outlet on the run, all outlets in series after it on that circuit are protected. I made the mistake of buying a bunch of GFCI outlets at my first house when I didn't need to (I ended up having a GFCI breaker), but found the above info during the research.

 

[mendozer]

This may pertain to you, and please double check, but I believe that if you put a GFCI outlet as the first outlet on the run, all outlets in series after it on that circuit are protected. I made the mistake of buying a bunch of GFCI outlets at my first house when I didn't need to (I ended up having a GFCI breaker), but found the above info during the research.

That's good to know. I was planning on putting one of those workbench power strips on the front, plugged into the GFI outlet on the wall, thereby making everything downstream protected.

 

[ddawg16]

This may pertain to you, and please double check, but I believe that if you put a GFCI outlet as the first outlet on the run, all outlets in series after it on that circuit are protected. I made the mistake of buying a bunch of GFCI outlets at my first house when I didn't need to (I ended up having a GFCI breaker), but found the above info during the research.

I thought everyone knew that.

The GFCI has a line and load side.

You connect the supply to the line side and all remaining outlets to the load side.

Biggest mistake people make is tying the commons together on the load and line side.

Also note....you do NOT need a physical earth ground. GFCI's are a good way to make an outlet 'safer' in an older house with no physical earth grounds.

 

[mendozer]

I didn't know that. ^^^

Granted, I know how to swap outlets, run simple outlets, figure out circuit paths, etc. By no means am I an expert, hence I consult more experienced people to learn

 

[mendozer]

I got a quote from a neighborhood electrician....just to see what he'd say. I told him I'd wire the garage outlets myself and just wanted him to run the subpanel. I'd provide the panel he'd bring the wire (because he can get copper for less).

To run the subpanel, about 10 linear feet from main to other side of a wall...$2395. Oh and pre tax and permit.

I understand skilled tradesmen need to make money, but this just seems unbelievable. For a beginner like me I make take a couple hours to take my time and double check something. He should be able to get it wired up in under 30 minutes. I'd already install the panel and he's just wiring to terminals. I couldn't believe it. I asked how he broke that down but didn't get a response.

So...I'm definitely doing this myself.

 

[sberry]

The box stores also have 6/3 pieces about 15 ft, easy.

 

[checkthisout]

I got a quote from a neighborhood electrician....just to see what he'd say. I told him I'd wire the garage outlets myself and just wanted him to run the subpanel. I'd provide the panel he'd bring the wire (because he can get copper for less).

To run the subpanel, about 10 linear feet from main to other side of a wall...$2395. Oh and pre tax and permit.

I understand skilled tradesmen need to make money, but this just seems unbelievable. For a beginner like me I make take a couple hours to take my time and double check something. He should be able to get it wired up in under 30 minutes. I'd already install the panel and he's just wiring to terminals. I couldn't believe it. I asked how he broke that down but didn't get a response.

So...I'm definitely doing this myself.

Meh. Were in a building boom. Take it or leave it.

 

[alfredeneuman]

I got a quote from a neighborhood electrician....
To run the subpanel, about 10 linear feet from main to other side of a wall...$2395. Oh and pre tax and permit.

Get at least 3 estimates and select the one best suited to your needs

 

[alfredeneuman]

the CH line which is really nice with copper bus bars. Eaton CH is the go to for premium!

They have silver plated copper busbars and breaker stabs whereas the other brands have tin plated copper.
They're well worth the minimal increase in cost

 

[mendozer]

Not much more only $99 for the one I looked at. Maybe I'll throw them in the mix as well

 

[mendozer]

The box stores also have 6/3 pieces about 15 ft, easy.

ah yes, they didn't list it under SER, that's why I didn't see it

 

[nsula_country]

Well not quite.

Eaton makes 2 panel lines for residential.

The BR line which is the low cost choice you mentioned and the CH line which is really nice with copper bus bars. Eaton CH is the go to for premium!

I like Eaton (Cuttler Hammer) CH equipement. Tan handles look nice.

CT

 

[nikerret]

My house came with a 250A service Square D QO panel. It is connected to my transfer switch (connected to a General Guardian 13kw). I had two spaces left, so I used a Cutler Hammer (Eaton) CH panel put in, as a sub panel. It was free, but in good shape. I have a 100A QO breaker going to a 100A CH breaker. The CH panel is intended to be a main, but the main breaker wouldn’t hold, so it was bypassed. I paid an electrician to do it, so I didn’t have to worry. That was over a year ago. Still haven’t put anything in the sub panel, but I plan to add two dedicated welding plugs, 240v and 120v.

 

[mike93lx]

My house came with a 250A service Square D QO panel. It is connected to my transfer switch (connected to a General Guardian 13kw). I had two spaces left, so I used a Cutler Hammer (Eaton) CH panel put in, as a sub panel. It was free, but in good shape. I have a 100A QO breaker going to a 100A CH breaker. The CH panel is intended to be a main, but the main breaker wouldn’t hold, so it was bypassed. I paid an electrician to do it, so I didn’t have to worry. That was over a year ago. Still haven’t put anything in the sub panel, but I plan to add two dedicated welding plugs, 240v and 120v.

250A? Huh, never seen that.

 

[mendozer]

I'm seeing good reports here for the Eaton CH. Maybe I don't understand the details but to me these are metal boxes with a lug center and terminals for wires. Aside from bus conduction (which I can see copper vs aluminum) I can't fathom the difference of low vs high quality. Unless that stems to the types of breakers designed for that panel too. Although I suppose like anything else, there are tiers of quality.

 

[checkthisout]

SquareD Homeline seems to be the best deal.

I don't think most homeowners are taxing a panel enough for even a poor quality unit to show defects.

Commercial stuff is where I think you actually get a good idea of what's what.

 

[nsula_country]

And supposedly Square D Homeline and QO have the same internals in their breakers... But different prices...

CT

 

[mendozer]

ok I started my wiring today. Then I had a brain fart...My Eaton panel has three supply terminals, and I got 2-2-2-2 SER cable because that's what Lowes had. And when I explained I was running a subpanel they agrees. It's #2 b/c aluminum. I'm staring at the subpanel thinking "hmm, where does the 4th one go?". I called my father and he was confused at first with what I asked, but then said "oh well red and black go to your central load bars and ground goes to the side terminals, you don't need neutral".

Now...first off, am I crazy? I know my circuits require neutral or common (whatever term) but since it's the route from main to sub panel, is all that's truly needed just hot,hot, and ground? My other concern is fitting a #2 aluminum wire bundle in my current panel's terminal holes, looks a bit tight.

and yes, it's upside down. Due to where I wanted to run my wires, it's going to be neater if I flip the panel upside down and run supply from the bottom up.

 

[Bert_]

ok I started my wiring today. Then I had a brain fart...My Eaton panel has three supply terminals, and I got 2-2-2-2 SER cable because that's what Lowes had. And when I explained I was running a subpanel they agrees. It's #2 b/c aluminum. I'm staring at the subpanel thinking "hmm, where does the 4th one go?". I called my father and he was confused at first with what I asked, but then said "oh well red and black go to your central load bars and ground goes to the side terminals, you don't need neutral".

Now...first off, am I crazy? I know my circuits require neutral or common (whatever term) but since it's the route from main to sub panel, is all that's truly needed just hot,hot, and ground? My other concern is fitting a #2 aluminum wire bundle in my current panel's terminal holes, looks a bit tight.

and yes, it's upside down. Due to where I wanted to run my wires, it's going to be neater if I flip the panel upside down and run supply from the bottom up.

It's not upside down. 99% of panels these days are designed to be mounted either direction.

You need to purchase a ground bar for your panel. That's where the 4th wire goes. You also need to remove the green screw from the neutral bar.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

ok I started my wiring today. Then I had a brain fart...My Eaton panel has three supply terminals, and I got 2-2-2-2 SER cable because that's what Lowes had. And when I explained I was running a subpanel they agrees. It's #2 b/c aluminum. I'm staring at the subpanel thinking "hmm, where does the 4th one go?". I called my father and he was confused at first with what I asked, but then said "oh well red and black go to your central load bars and ground goes to the side terminals, you don't need neutral".

Now...first off, am I crazy? I know my circuits require neutral or common (whatever term) but since it's the route from main to sub panel, is all that's truly needed just hot,hot, and ground? My other concern is fitting a #2 aluminum wire bundle in my current panel's terminal holes, looks a bit tight.

and yes, it's upside down. Due to where I wanted to run my wires, it's going to be neater if I flip the panel upside down and run supply from the bottom up.

You must certainly do need a neutral since there will be 120v circuits. your father is dangerously incorrect.

As said above, you need to purchase an Eaton ground bar kit that is listed and labeled for that panel.

the green screw on the lower left neutral bar needs to be removed as well.

Check panel label listing to see what the max size wire you can use on those lugs. you may need to purchase an add on lug or a breaker and back feed it if you cant get a lug. make sure to get the hold down kit as well.

 

[u2slow]

As said above, you need to purchase an Eaton ground bar kit that is listed and labeled for that panel.

Ground bars are often in a baggie included with the panel... that you install yourself. If the package has been previously opened, they may have been swiped.

 

[mendozer]

You must certainly do need a neutral since there will be 120v circuits. your father is dangerously incorrect.

As said above, you need to purchase an Eaton ground bar kit that is listed and labeled for that panel.

the green screw on the lower left neutral bar needs to be removed as well.

Check panel label listing to see what the max size wire you can use on those lugs. you may need to purchase an add on lug or a breaker and back feed it if you cant get a lug. make sure to get the hold down kit as well.

OK the sticker in the panel did reference a ground bar but nothing was in the box (brand new and banded box) but I assumed that if the house panel was grounded, then the grounding 'extends to it' or similar. OK I'm going to see if Lowes has a kit since that's where I got the panel. As for the terminal sizes, that wasn't specified on the sticker but I'll check again. One thing to note, there is no ground bar in my Main panel. It's similar to this one where there are 3 wires feeding the panel, two hots and a thick braided ground wire which goes to the side neutral/ground terminals. And both terminals are linked just like my panel. So to clarify, in the main (siemens 200A) panel the side terminals hold all neutral and ground wires. And I didn't install this, it's what the house has, and has the inspection sticker and everything legit.

I see this

but I'll have to check if it's compatible or where it would attach.

 

[sberry]

The second panel is wired differently than the first.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Ground bars are often in a baggie included with the panel... that you install yourself. If the package has been previously opened, they may have been swiped.

I've never seen a ground bar kit included with a panel. These are sold separate at every store Ive shopped at...

OK the sticker in the panel did reference a ground bar but nothing was in the box (brand new and banded box) but I assumed that if the house panel was grounded, then the grounding 'extends to it' or similar. OK I'm going to see if Lowes has a kit since that's where I got the panel. As for the terminal sizes, that wasn't specified on the sticker but I'll check again.

I've never seen them included. This is because these panels are setup from the factory as a main service panel (as evidenced by the bonded neutral; the bonded neutral can only be used on a main service panel)

Bad idea to assume anything here. Your main service panel is different because it's the main. ALL subpanels require an isolated neutral bar, separate EGC/grounding conductor aka ground wire AND ground bar. ALL grounds need to go to this separate bar. The bar is directly installed to the panel enclosure.

Don't compare a subpanel to a main service panel. They are different animals.

One thing to note, there is no ground bar in my Main panel. It's similar to this one where there are 3 wires feeding the panel, two hots and a thick braided ground wire which goes to the side neutral/ground terminals. And both terminals are linked just like my panel. So to clarify, in the main (siemens 200A) panel the side terminals hold all neutral and ground wires. And I didn't install this, it's what the house has, and has the inspection sticker and everything legit.

yes that is correct for a MAIN SERVICE PANEL ONLY.

To clarify, yes in a main service panel ONLY, the neutrals and grounding conductors aka ground wires can land on the same bar.

I see this but I'll have to check if it's compatible or where it would attach.

Yes thats the correct bar.

The panel should have dimples where the bar is screwed into.

BTW Eaton BR is a cheapo panel that is not very good quality.

Eaton CH is much better.

It wouldve been even better if you went with a siemens panel to match your main service panel.

 

[Norcal]

I've never seen a ground bar kit included with a panel. These are sold separate at every store Ive shopped at...



I've never seen them included. This is because these panels are setup from the factory as a main service panel (as evidenced by the bonded neutral; the bonded neutral can only be used on a main service panel)

Bad idea to assume anything here. Your main service panel is different because it's the main. ALL subpanels require an isolated neutral bar, separate EGC/grounding conductor aka ground wire AND ground bar. ALL grounds need to go to this separate bar. The bar is directly installed to the panel enclosure.

Don't compare a subpanel to a main service panel. They are different animals.



yes that is correct for a MAIN SERVICE PANEL ONLY.

To clarify, yes in a main service panel ONLY, the neutrals and grounding conductors aka ground wires can land on the same bar.



Yes thats the correct bar.

The panel should have dimples where the bar is screwed into.

BTW Eaton BR is a cheapo panel that is not very good quality.

Eaton CH is much better.

It wouldve been even better if you went with a siemens panel to match your main service panel.

I still call Eaton BR “Zinsco II”. I don’t think our opinions of Zinsco are much different. The BR panels are ******.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I still call Eaton BR “Zinsco II”. I don’t think our opinions of Zinsco are much different. The BR panels are ******.

yeah i agree with you. Ive seen some toasty BR panels in addition to all the nasty zinsco stuff I saw when I did service calls.

 

[mendozer]

I've never seen a ground bar kit included with a panel. These are sold separate at every store Ive shopped at...



I've never seen them included. This is because these panels are setup from the factory as a main service panel (as evidenced by the bonded neutral; the bonded neutral can only be used on a main service panel)

Bad idea to assume anything here. Your main service panel is different because it's the main. ALL subpanels require an isolated neutral bar, separate EGC/grounding conductor aka ground wire AND ground bar. ALL grounds need to go to this separate bar. The bar is directly installed to the panel enclosure.

Don't compare a subpanel to a main service panel. They are different animals.



yes that is correct for a MAIN SERVICE PANEL ONLY.

To clarify, yes in a main service panel ONLY, the neutrals and grounding conductors aka ground wires can land on the same bar.



Yes thats the correct bar.

The panel should have dimples where the bar is screwed into.

BTW Eaton BR is a cheapo panel that is not very good quality.

Eaton CH is much better.

It wouldve been even better if you went with a siemens panel to match your main service panel.

That clarifies a lot, thank you. This is the first i've finally learned that the main and sub have these key differences. The idiot at the hardware store didn't help much...which I guess makes me an associated idiot. But they that's why I consult you people!

I had limited options there of Square D Homeline or this. They had Siemens in the main format (like 200 amp). FWIW i did consider Siemens but my panel doesn't use the "regular" Siemens QC type, it requires the universal NC connectors and they're much more expensive. Hence I thought Eaton vs Square D. And talking with the guy but also thinking about electrical codes, anything brand new is going to be up to snuff because legally it must or they get into trouble. And being as it's a small garage sub, I didn't fret about specifics. I don't know what constitutes better panels. Better terminal bars? cleaner knockouts? Not to be a smartass, but the're all metal boxes with bus bars, screws, holes, plastic pieces, etc. IDK the difference.

 

[mendozer]

I'm reading more about these things and came across FineHomebuilding's article on it which explains it pretty well. Looking at my panel picture, if I remove the connector bar joining the two side bars, then my left can be ground and the right can be neutral. I just need one of those hold downs to attach to the right terminal. Then I wouldn't need a separate bar. It would look like his

 

[mendozer]

This page had more information about grounding rods than I desired to learn but it was very informative.
Looks like I'm heading to grab more stuff from the store. I have my home's grounding rods right next to the garage too, and I didn't see anything specific to proximity to those. I know if you use a 5 footer, then you can't be within 6 feet of another rod. I have very rocky soil so putting in a ground rod is going to be a PITA. I was thinking of trying the hose jet method but I don't know.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I'm reading more about these things and came across FineHomebuilding's article on it which explains it pretty well. Looking at my panel picture, if I remove the connector bar joining the two side bars, then my left can be ground and the right can be neutral. I just need one of those hold downs to attach to the right terminal. Then I wouldn't need a separate bar. It would look like his

I wouldn't do that and it may not even be listed to do it that way.

Having only one neutral bar on one side will make the panel more messy.

Better to have a neutral bar and a ground bar on each side

This page had more information about grounding rods than I desired to learn but it was very informative.
Looks like I'm heading to grab more stuff from the store. I have my home's grounding rods right next to the garage too, and I didn't see anything specific to proximity to those. I know if you use a 5 footer, then you can't be within 6 feet of another rod. I have very rocky soil so putting in a ground rod is going to be a PITA. I was thinking of trying the hose jet method but I don't know.

You dont even need ground rods for the subpanel since its in the same structure as the main service panel.

Go checkout the diagrams on the electrical FAQ sticky thread.

 

[mendozer]

Just above you said all subpanels require a grounding wire and grounding bar. I thought that mean ground rod. But maybe my terminology's messed up. did you mean grounding wire in the supply cable from the main + grounding terminal or bar in the panel? Because that's what I originally assumed before I brought up the issue.

also, I'm going to see if I can just return the lowes one and get this Has ground on both sides + copper bus. Something like this wasn't available at Lowes at the time. This will eliminate the need for the add on lug and my crazy thoughts. As for the return, those knockout holes were like that...

Thanks for all the help!!!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Just above you said all subpanels require a grounding wire and grounding bar. I thought that mean ground rod. But maybe my terminology's messed up. did you mean grounding wire in the supply cable from the main + grounding terminal or bar in the panel? Because that's what I originally assumed before I brought up the issue.

also, I'm going to see if I can just return the lowes one and get this Has ground on both sides + copper bus. Something like this wasn't available at Lowes at the time. This will eliminate the need for the add on lug and my crazy thoughts. As for the return, those knockout holes were like that...

Thanks for all the help!!!

You’re mixing things up.

Grounding conductors for circuits and grounding electrodes are 2 entirely different animals.

Post #4 on the electrical FAQs thread explains it in greater detail.

Your attached subpanel only needs a geounding conductor and separate ground bar.

That siemens panel is a lot nicer than the BR. Make sure to remove the green screw from the neutral bar.

 

[u2slow]

I've never seen a ground bar kit included with a panel. These are sold separate at every store Ive shopped at...

I've never seen them included. This is because these panels are setup from the factory as a main service panel (as evidenced by the bonded neutral; the bonded neutral can only be used on a main service panel)

Huh. I've never seen ground bars NOT included in a main or sub panel. Maybe another US/Canada variation?

Here are two main panels from Home Depot depicted with the included ground bars installed.
https://www.homedepot.ca/product/si...-240v-panel-pack-with-main-breaker/1000415044

https://www.homedepot.ca/product/sq...wikpak-panel-package-with-breakers/1000416749