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Subpanel Cost quote, HOW MUCH ??!!!???

BikerDad

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So, I got a quote to install a subpanel in my garage.

The main panel is in the laundry room, which is between the garage and the main living quarters. The main panel is actually on the perpendicular wall adjacent to the door to the garage. I wanted to put the subpanel on the garage wall adjacent to the door. (Think of a "T", with the door being one arm of the T, putting the sub on the other arm, the main is on the "post" of the T).

Total distance between the main and desired location of the sub - less than 3'.

The LABOR portion of the quote was $1,100! :shocking: :headscrat

Am I crazy in thinking that's out of line?

Full Specs:
100 amp, 16 space subpanel. The breaker for the sub was going to be put into the place of the 50 amp electric range breaker in the upper left corner of the panel. I have a gas range, so repurposing the spaces is a good things, especially since there isn't enough space in the panel to add a big breaker.
 
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Evan(CA)

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It seems high if that 1100 is labor only but keep in mind if you wanted a bid the contractor has to add a little extra to cover incidentals so he doesn't lose his *** when something unexpected comes up. Have him to do the job T&M, it's not more than a days work.
 
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wyliesdiesels

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Hard to say if thats high. Varies by area.

How much is the permit?

Only way to know if thats high is to get a few more quotes.

In reality, its not that hard and u could do the work yourself!
 
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firworks

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And you are paying someone to do this? Why?

That is a Sat job. $50 for the sub panel.

Is it that easy to run a subpanel? I've been trying to decide what to do at my house because I've got an old 1960's house with a single 15 amp circuit in the garage that I've been begrudgingly working around. I have been trying to plan out running 2 - 20 amp 120V circuits and one 220V circuit out there from the basement. I started to wonder if I wouldn't be better off putting a panel out there though and running the circuits out of that. I figured I'd need to pay to get that done though.
 

ddawg16

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Is it that easy to run a subpanel? I've been trying to decide what to do at my house because I've got an old 1960's house with a single 15 amp circuit in the garage that I've been begrudgingly working around. I have been trying to plan out running 2 - 20 amp 120V circuits and one 220V circuit out there from the basement. I started to wonder if I wouldn't be better off putting a panel out there though and running the circuits out of that. I figured I'd need to pay to get that done though.

I'm guessing detached garage?

It's actually 'electrically' easy. It's much better to install a sub in the garage than run individual ckts.

The 'physically' hard part is conduit. You need to get power from your main to the sub. If not detached....then it's just running the wires.

Without a doubt, I'd do a sub. You run say a 30 or 50A 240Vac line to a 6 ckt sub. Now you have power for 240 plus up to 4 20A ckts.

If the garage is attached, no ground rod needed. If detached, ground rods.

Post some pics and details and we can help you out.
 

bczygan

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Is it that easy to run a subpanel? I've been trying to decide what to do at my house because I've got an old 1960's house with a single 15 amp circuit in the garage that I've been begrudgingly working around. I have been trying to plan out running 2 - 20 amp 120V circuits and one 220V circuit out there from the basement. I started to wonder if I wouldn't be better off putting a panel out there though and running the circuits out of that. I figured I'd need to pay to get that done though.

http://www.electrical-online.com/subpanel-installation/


Do a bunch of research, until you are comfortable with the rules, tools, materials, techniques etc.
 
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Jlarson

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Seems pretty good. I ran some quick numbers but my rates are a lot higher (industrial) then a resi outfit. It costs money to run a business, we have to charge accordingly.
 

zmaxmotorsports

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I got a phone call yesterday from a guy in what I consider to be a rough part of Omaha.
Anyway hes rattling on about needing an electrical inspection to to get an electrical hook up on a house hes living in,So I drive over to look at the place.
I get there and find that somebody bootlegged in a new 200a service panel on the outside wall in the back of the kitchen,which actually looked pretty nice compared to most installs I see.;)
But on the outside he had a bunch of pvc cobbled together coming out of the wall then swinging over to a 100a meter socket,then he had a 2" pvc mast and weather head packed with 3/0 copper laying on the ground.
I told him he couldn't use pvc to feed the service from the meter across back of house and back into panel/the meter socket was wrong and the mast could be emt since it wasn't supporting the service,but the plastic wasn't going to fly.
I also told him his #6 ground wires needed to be #4.
He started going off about what the guy at lowes told him to use and all the you tube videos he had been watching,I finally told him Id charge him $2000.00 to install the new service from the panel to the meter socket and up to a new weather head and ground everything the way it should be done hoping he would just call somebody else.
He said he had another guy coming to bid on it,but hed call and let me know.
I really hope the other guy bids it for half so I never have to hear from him again!:spit:
 

Mustang51js

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If your talking 3 feet away,I can't see this being more than $600, it should take about an hour tops to do,your talking mounting a panel and running 2-2-2-4 al ser $200 in materials tops if you go with qo panel,otherwise a home line panel is around $50
 
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Mustang51js

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Seems pretty good. I ran some quick numbers but my rates are a lot higher (industrial) then a resi outfit. It costs money to run a business, we have to charge accordingly.

What's your hourly rate,I usually try to charge $125 hour. But how long do you think it should take to mount a panel to wood and run a small piece of wire,he's not even talking putting new circuits in it.
 

Jlarson

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What's your hourly rate,I usually try to charge $125 hour. But how long do you think it should take to mount a panel to wood and run a small piece of wire,he's not even talking putting new circuits in it.

My guesstimate price was $1,300, including labor, materials, trip charge, and permitting. May be cheaper depending on how easy permitting is in a particular jurisdiction and if someone has to babysit the inspector or not.

I don't break down quotes, especially in resi, it invites complaining.
 

landyacht

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Was the quote just for the electrical portion, or did that include drywall removal/repair, and repainting?
 

MTW

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I find these type posts amusing, no presentation of the site conditions or circumstances just a focus on the price, and a comparison of the cost of materials from the big box stores.

To run a business it entails a lot of necessary costs, beyond the cost of materials. Like payroll, workers comp, liability insurance, vehicular costs, shop overhead, licensing costs, permits and inspection time. In a DIY situation none of these costs are a factor, so the pricing is not comparable.

Most residential installations have boogers from prior DIY's that will also need addressing once you touch the project, that is if you want to pass inspection and not inherit the liability for previous boogers before you touched the installation.

In the case of the OP here, no mention of the site conditions, the ability to fish in a feeder cable from an attic or basement space without R&R of drywall. Not to mention that he wants the panel installed in a fire rated wall assembly between the house and garage and the things that that entails. And that he wants to have only the feeder installed, and he will do the branch circuits.

Any bad things that happen at that address, the permitted contractor of record will be called to account, regardless of fault or not, to defend himself. Then his insurance rate will definitely go up as a result, regardless of culpability, it's the way the system works. It can be a big liability risk for a little bit of money, especially when you can't do the whole job, to insure that it is done correctly.

I try to stay away from residential work just for these reasons, inherited liability, from things beyond your control. Not to mention, to get the work, your installed price has to be near your costs, to be even close to getting the work.

I'm not trying to say that a homeowner installation is always shoddy, sometimes just the opposite. A knowledgeable caring tenant or owner may do a better (safer) job than the money hungry, fly by night contractor. Every case is different, and needs to be sorted based on the facts at hand not just the material pricing.

Honest and professional contractors work from personal referrals and this helps eliminates ambiguities and situations of untrust between the parties.

MTW Ω
 

Mustang51js

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That's the point of the inspection,if your just getting an inspection for the panel,anything after it was approved wouldn't be a liability on the contractor if the homeowner did work after. At least I know by me the inspectors write down what was done,some guys even write down arc fault breakers were present when inspected so if they are removed after inspection he covers himself and then it's on the homeowner.
 
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Slowgsr

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To get a qualified electrician with a high skill level who does quality work your not going to get less then 1k a day in labour, at least up here anyways. You get what you pay for. This is coming from an electrical contractor, been in business since 91.
 

wyliesdiesels

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I find these type posts amusing, no presentation of the site conditions or circumstances just a focus on the price, and a comparison of the cost of materials from the big box stores.

To run a business it entails a lot of necessary costs, beyond the cost of materials. Like payroll, workers comp, liability insurance, vehicular costs, shop overhead, licensing costs, permits and inspection time. In a DIY situation none of these costs are a factor, so the pricing is not comparable.

Most residential installations have boogers from prior DIY's that will also need addressing once you touch the project, that is if you want to pass inspection and not inherit the liability for previous boogers before you touched the installation.

In the case of the OP here, no mention of the site conditions, the ability to fish in a feeder cable from an attic or basement space without R&R of drywall. Not to mention that he wants the panel installed in a fire rated wall assembly between the house and garage and the things that that entails. And that he wants to have only the feeder installed, and he will do the branch circuits.

Any bad things that happen at that address, the permitted contractor of record will be called to account, regardless of fault or not, to defend himself. Then his insurance rate will definitely go up as a result, regardless of culpability, it's the way the system works. It can be a big liability risk for a little bit of money, especially when you can't do the whole job, to insure that it is done correctly.

I try to stay away from residential work just for these reasons, inherited liability, from things beyond your control. Not to mention, to get the work, your installed price has to be near your costs, to be even close to getting the work.

I'm not trying to say that a homeowner installation is always shoddy, sometimes just the opposite. A knowledgeable caring tenant or owner may do a better (safer) job than the money hungry, fly by night contractor. Every case is different, and needs to be sorted based on the facts at hand not just the material pricing.

Honest and professional contractors work from personal referrals and this helps eliminates ambiguities and situations of untrust between the parties.

MTW Ω

:+1:
 

blakjak220

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It cost me $1000 to run a 100amp panel from one end of my residence to the shop, about 125ft away. Including the subpanel and installing everything. Along with fixing a couple of small problems from previous owners. $1000 for labor is ridiculous.
 

fourjeepin

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Re: Home Depot Clearance Thread 2015

To get a qualified electrician with a high skill level who does quality work your not going to get less then 1k a day in labour, at least up here anyways. You get what you pay for. This is coming from an electrical contractor, been in business since 91.

$1k labor per day? Is this a typo? If not, I need to quit my corp job.
 

reader2580

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Re: Home Depot Clearance Thread 2015

$1k labor per day? Is this a typo? If not, I need to quit my corp job.

Probably the billable rate for labor, not what the actual electrician makes. Kinda like the dealership that charges $100 an hour to fix your car doesn't pay the mechanic $100 an hour.
 

firworks

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I'm guessing detached garage?

It's actually 'electrically' easy. It's much better to install a sub in the garage than run individual ckts.

The 'physically' hard part is conduit. You need to get power from your main to the sub. If not detached....then it's just running the wires.

Without a doubt, I'd do a sub. You run say a 30 or 50A 240Vac line to a 6 ckt sub. Now you have power for 240 plus up to 4 20A ckts.

If the garage is attached, no ground rod needed. If detached, ground rods.

Post some pics and details and we can help you out.

It's a garage under bedrooms. There is a firewall between the rest of the house and it. The adjacent room has a drop ceiling and that room shares a wall with the basement so I am pretty sure I can just run it from the main panel, across the basement ceiling, across the den ceiling and into the garage wall. That really does sound a lot better running a single line out to a panel and then having 6 circuits in the garage. I'd have the most over serviced single car ****** tiny garage ever!

In doing that, do you then put a 220V 50A breaker in the main panel box, then run a single line out of that into the subpanel? That really doesn't sound so bad to do. I'd just need to find the right references to know where the wires can be fastened near the boxes, if they need to be taped in any fashion to indicate special circumstances and other code type dealies. The subpanel is actually sounding simpler than fishing 4 sets of romex. In addition, three walls of my garage are bare block, and I was wondering if maybe I should frame it up and insulate it for working in the winter. If I do the electrical at the same time I could really easily run the wiring... Intriguing.
 

Stuart in MN

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Like others have said, $1000 / day is not an unreasonable amount for billable time for an electrical contractor, but the guys working on the job are making a fraction of that for their hourly wage.

This is the same thing for pretty much anyone who works for any company - what your company charges for your time is a lot more than what you make for a salary.
 

Speedy Petey

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Like others have said, $1000 / day is not an unreasonable amount for billable time for an electrical contractor, but the guys working on the job are making a fraction of that for their hourly wage.

This is the same thing for pretty much anyone who works for any company - what your company charges for your time is a lot more than what you make for a salary.
Same goes for owner, I promise you.
 

Mustang51js

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Like others have said, $1000 / day is not an unreasonable amount for billable time for an electrical contractor, but the guys working on the job are making a fraction of that for their hourly wage.

This is the same thing for pretty much anyone who works for any company - what your company charges for your time is a lot more than what you make for a salary.

I can see that if it's an 8 hour job. We are talking a 2-3 hour job tops and that's prob pushing it. I can do a whole 200 amp service myself in 5-6 hours from removal of old stuff to connecting power back up. I doubt running 3 feet away would take a while unless it was steel plates between.
 
OP
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BikerDad

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Thank you who have taken the time to reply.

And you are paying someone to do this? Why?

That is a Sat job. $50 for the sub panel.
Basically, because I don't like poking around inside the main panel. I have a friend who is a nuke electrician who could do it, unfortunately he's 400 miles away.

Hard to say if thats high. Varies by area.

How much is the permit?
$75.

Only way to know if thats high is to get a few more quotes.

In reality, its not that hard and u could do the work yourself!
I know. In fact, I'm going to be doing all the circuits IN the garage myself, using conduit.

how about some pictures of the actual work location,Thats why I never bid over the phone unless Ive actually seen the job.:lol:
Fair enough. I'll take a pic tonite and post it. Yes, I can capture the entire work location in a single pic.

Was the quote just for the electrical portion, or did that include drywall removal/repair, and repainting?
IIRC, just electrical.

I can see that if it's an 8 hour job. We are talking a 2-3 hour job tops and that's prob pushing it. I can do a whole 200 amp service myself in 5-6 hours from removal of old stuff to connecting power back up. I doubt running 3 feet away would take a while unless it was steel plates between.
AFAIK, there's no steel plate. I expect that the sheetrock is doubled fire-rock, but it may not be. I may pull the panel cover off and see if I can snake my inspection camera in to see exactly what's between here and there.


MTW said:
I find these type posts amusing, no presentation of the site conditions or circumstances just a focus on the price, and a comparison of the cost of materials from the big box stores.
Site conditions were presented right up front.

In the case of the OP here, no mention of the site conditions, the ability to fish in a feeder cable from an attic or basement space
There is no attic, it's a multi-family (townhouses) dwelling built on slab with each unit's living space all on one level. My unit is one of two on the ground floor (along with all the garages), the other 6 units are on the second floor.

Not to mention that he wants the panel installed in a fire rated wall assembly between the house and garage and the things that that entails
I stated the subpanel would be on the wall, which in this case does mean surface mounted. I do understand the ambiguity my phrasing invokes. I want it surface mounted specifically because it is (or damn well should be) a fire rated wall.

Any bad things that happen at that address, the permitted contractor of record will be called to account, regardless of fault or not, to defend himself. Then his insurance rate will definitely go up as a result, regardless of culpability, it's the way the system works. It can be a big liability risk for a little bit of money, especially when you can't do the whole job, to insure that it is done correctly.
and this, likely, is the crux of it in this case. It is this dynamic (which, btw, I don't blame on the contractor) that, oddly enough, results in a lot of shoddy homeowner work. The liability "cost" (in dollars and hassle) leads contractors to ever higher prices, which results in yet more shoddy homeowner work.
 

MTW

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Site conditions were upfront? then go on to tell more about site conditions, but still no photo of the conditions. Only the view from your eye. I'm not trying to be critical of you, just that I don't listen when a customer tell me how to do an install. What they want sure, how to best accomplish that, what is acceptable for my risk, will determine how I do the install.

Poking a hole in that fire rated wall to put a cable assembly through in short order, like others stated they could do, violates the fire rated listing, if you care that it remains, surface mounting of the enclosure aside. Conduit would be in order along with the necessary rated fire sealants to maintain the integrity of the wall listing.

Now it's a townhouse with 6 units above that fire rated wall. See what I mean here, your original description didn't include that. Even more reason not to violate that wall listing. 6 or more people above you rely on the integrity of that wall for their safety, it's not just for you.

In the area I'm from, most municipality's don't allow homeowner permits for townhouses just for these reasons. It's not a single family dwelling structure. It's a multifamily dwelling, more lives at stake than your own.

Again I'm not trying to beat you up or any other members, just trying to point out that there may be more to it that appears from someones keyboard out yonder. Ya don't really know without making a professional site inspection to determine the proper methods and materials, before an honest bid can be made. Seems to be applicable in this case also, even thou it appears as a no brainer.
 

MTW

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I'll give you a little example of how the liability can flow on a site. Which is what contractors should be paying attention to.

I do some work for fire contractors in my area, many would consider this a higher risk. Stuff like kitchen equipment shutdowns and interlocking with other alarms, air handling units and the like. Explosion-proof areas like paint booths and production painting equipment, paint kitchens, paint robots, equipment interlocking plant shutdowns.

The fire guys call to have a kitchen fire system done over the holidays in a large senior building. They want the job installed over the holiday, and get the inspections done after the new year. We've done plenty of these systems at various type buildings over the years. They put their equipment in, then I go behind them to do my part. While working during holiday hours the inspector shows up, city offices were closed and unable to obtain the permit before starting.

The inspector is in a huff over the job, and is having a fit over work being done during the holiday. He badgers me and my help, the office staff and management at the facility. I got his point that your supposed to get a permit beforehand. I also explained the circumstances of the job and assured that we would handle the paperwork as soon as the offices were opened back up. He goes away mad and dissatisfied.

In my years of doing this type work I never encountered an inspector that acted like this. I figured that something happened at this site in the past and that there were issues before I got there. So after the job was done, tested, certified, and inspected, I asked the fire contractor owner what was up with that project, why was there so much anxiety and distrust with the city, did they have bad relations with that city?

Then he proceeded to tell the story. The building was relatively new and housed many senior apartments and constructed of wood, 3 stories if I remember correctly. When the building and it's systems were installed, everything was inspected and passed. When the contractor that I was working with got the facility as a customer, they do a complete site inspection and generate a report. This gets sent to the management, owner, city officials and fire Marshall.

On that report, it stated that the many gas dryer vents were snaking through the wood structure in violation of the fire codes. Problem was, it was specked on the prints and built that way, then approved by the inspectors. It took the 2nd fire contractor to point it out, which helps remove their liability from prior inadequacies. This put the city as well as the management on the hook so to speak, they approved the plans and the build. The management of course didn't want the expense of replacing the vents through the building, and the city didn't want the liability of their errors of not catching it then approving it.

I think like 250 people lived in that structure. Then it became perfectly clear why the city was on the muscle at that site. It was documented and they clearly had some liability. The management had the opinion that they payed for approved construction and were looking to someone else for the upgrade cost. I told the fire contractor if they ever pulled that **** on me again, they would be done.

The moral of the story is that people make mistakes or just don't know the rules. Even if they have a title and a badge. In this case the architect, plan reviewer, mechanical contractor, building contractor, first fire contractor and the fire Marshall. They were all looking for others to place the liability on after the fact, the deeds were done. Just a real world example of what things can be like in the contractors realm. and why you learn to cover your ****.

MTW Ω
 

zmaxmotorsports

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I can see that if it's an 8 hour job. We are talking a 2-3 hour job tops and that's prob pushing it. I can do a whole 200 amp service myself in 5-6 hours from removal of old stuff to connecting power back up. I doubt running 3 feet away would take a while unless it was steel plates between.

I haven't seen a picture of the actual job yet,unless I missed something.;)
 

Mustang51js

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If you can't install a sub panel only 3 feet away in a couple hours then you have issues lol. I don't need to see job to know that it won't be $1000 labor. Unless I decide to make the holes in wood with sandpaper. Your running no cable,not emt,pivc or any other pipe. That's like charging $500 to replace a outlet,I'm sure some people can milk it for a couple hours
 
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BikerDad

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Location of main panel and desired location of the subpanel, just above and to the right of the black garage door controls to the right of the door. The very thick door jamb indicates a fire rated wall.
 

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Mustang51js

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That's not a hard job,but you will have to cut some sheet rock on both sides. I would cut out a square above the main panel.closer to the right stud, then on garage side cut from door jam over a foot or two,then you just need to drill the corner and snake the wire through. 2-3 hour job tops. If you have access to above ceiling then it would be even quicker because the only Sheetrock you have to cut is where the panel is going and won't have to fix any Sheetrock. That's def not a $1000 plus job,more like $500 tops and that's pushing it
 
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