Subpanel Critique Request Please

[Angelfire]

Hiya folks,
In the middle of roughing out my detached garage and figured I'd ask the experts to take a quick look at my subpanel to see if I made any mistakes.

The detached garage is fed from the house main panel where a 100A breaker is installed feeding an existing subpanel in the detached garage. This subpanel contains a 100A main breaker as well given it's roughly 100' from the house. Now, I'm adding a subpanel to the subpanel if you wil,l to supply 240V circuits (Lug not main as the new subpanel is located right net to the existing subpanel). Also adding a few bits to the first sub panel while I have the walls open. I'm feeding the subpanel shown below from a 70A breaker in the existing subpanel (not yet installed.....ran out of light today so will try to get it done tomorrow) using 2-2-2-4 Al SER. Total of 10 240V circuits (all 2 wire) are installed in the new subpanel....kind of weird not having a single neutral installed other than the service feeder. I still have a few bits to do like supporting the 6-2, general cleanup, etc..... The first picture shows the existing panel (on the right) and my DIY subpanel on the left.

I'm sure I've forgotten to clarify something so please ask. I appreciate any and all feedback!
Thank you.

 

[Aceman]

Looks better than most.

But, you should of bought one with more spaces. Using twin/quad breakers right from the get go screams lack of planning to me. Also, you can't have white wires landing on breakers. Wrap them along the entire length with black tape first.

 

[alfredeneuman]

The white wires needn't be taped the entire lengths with black tape.
Cables are required to be "permanently remarked at the terminals". It can be accomplished with a number of different methods (paint, etc.) and colors.

 

[Norcal]

Remarking the whites is a simple task, but cheaping out on a panel is one of my peeves just because hate to see twin/quad breakers in a new panel. That is one reason I like bolt-on breakers, the panels don't accept twins. That is something very rare in a residential setting though.

 

[Angelfire]

Thanks folks. I appreciate the inputs. And I knew about the whites needing marking. Just got back from HD with the intent on getting either red tape or shrink wrap and just realized I got everything but that....typical. Anyway, the marking of the white's is on my list.

As for the panel, I bought it as it matches what was installed already...really no other reason. I originally started with just a few circuits but decided to just put in a number of others as spares since the walls are opened up and all the circuits are dedicated (ie. only one receptacle/device on each one). I am quite confident I won't need any additional circuits added. I didn't realize the quad breakers were a bad thing....

Cheers and thanks for the inputs.

 

[brownbagg]

why are you using white wire as hots? if its a 240 circuit why not use four wire and use the red as hot. mixing white with hot even mark with white in the box as netural is very dangerous.

you should never use white as hot even mark, its better to use black with white marking but only as service lines from meter

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yeah panel shouldve been larger.

Did u isolate neutral bars?

 

[Git]

why are you using white wire as hots? if its a 240 circuit why not use four wire and use the red as hot. mixing white with hot even mark with white in the box as netural is very dangerous.

you should never use white as hot even mark, its better to use black with white marking but only as service lines from meter

Look at the top right quad breaker. It looks like he has a 20 amp, 240v circuit for his lift and just used some 12/2 romex

 

[Angelfire]

Yeah panel shouldve been larger.

Did u isolate neutral bars?

Yes, they are isolated. Although there's nothing on them since everything is 240v, 2-wire except of course the Neutral feed from the previous panel.

I suppose folks that are suggesting the panel to be bigger have good reason to say so. It allows for future expansion. I've had 4 years to plan my needs and include possible future additions so am quite confident the panel will suit.

Cheers and thanks for taking a look at it!

 

[Angelfire]

Look at the top right quad breaker. It looks like he has a 20 amp, 240v circuit for his lift and just used some 12/2 romex

Is that a problem? If not 12-2 what should have been used? Last I checked, 12 ga was good for 20A (NM-B) so I'm a little perplexed by your comment.
Cheers and thanks for taking a look.

 

[Angelfire]

why are you using white wire as hots? if its a 240 circuit why not use four wire and use the red as hot. mixing white with hot even mark with white in the box as netural is very dangerous.

you should never use white as hot even mark, its better to use black with white marking but only as service lines from meter

Because a) code allows it and it's pretty common. b) I don't have a need for a neutral for these circuits so 2 wire is satisfactory and c) no point spending more on 3 wire only to cap the neutral anyway.

Cheers.

 

[Norcal]

why are you using white wire as hots? if its a 240 circuit why not use four wire and use the red as hot. mixing white with hot even mark with white in the box as netural is very dangerous.

you should never use white as hot even mark, its better to use black with white marking but only as service lines from meter

This is from the Urban Legend Code, not the NEC.

Because a) code allows it and it's pretty common. b) I don't have a need for a neutral for these circuits so 2 wire is satisfactory and c) no point spending more on 3 wire only to cap the neutral anyway.

Cheers.

This says it all.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

why are you using white wire as hots? if its a 240 circuit why not use four wire and use the red as hot. mixing white with hot even mark with white in the box as netural is very dangerous.

you should never use white as hot even mark, its better to use black with white marking but only as service lines from meter

Wrong information!!!

Code allows the use of a white conductor in multi conductor cable as long as its recolored.

Yes, they are isolated. Although there's nothing on them since everything is 240v, 2-wire except of course the Neutral feed from the previous panel.

I suppose folks that are suggesting the panel to be bigger have good reason to say so. It allows for future expansion. I've had 4 years to plan my needs and include possible future additions so am quite confident the panel will suit.

Cheers and thanks for taking a look at it!

The neutral bars needing to be isolated has nothing to do with whether there is wires connected to them.

 

[Git]

Is that a problem? If not 12-2 what should have been used? Last I checked, 12 ga was good for 20A (NM-B) so I'm a little perplexed by your comment.
Cheers and thanks for taking a look.

No - I don't think it is a problem.

I was just responding to brownbagg's comment about why you were using a white wire as a 'hot' and as you pointed out, you don't need 3 wires. I would have done it like you did

 

[brownbagg]

No - I don't think it is a problem.

I was just responding to brownbagg's comment about why you were using a white wire as a 'hot' and as you pointed out, you don't need 3 wires. I would have done it like you did

but it still stupid, four wire is cheap and it take the stupid out of the equation

 

[sberry]

The electric aint prejudice. Nothing wrong with 1 less wire where its not needed and they went out of their way to allow it.

 

[sberry]

Look at the top right quad breaker. It looks like he has a 20 amp, 240v circuit for his lift and just used some 12/2 romex

I cant recall seeing one not listed for 12 and I think it slides by being compliant with cable?
Wont burn the place down at any rate.

 

[Git]

i cant recall seeing one not listed for 12 and i think it slides by being compliant with cable?
Wont burn the place down at any rate.

i was just trying to explain to brownbagg why he was using a white wire for hot - see post #13

Brownbagg - if I have a 250' roll of 12/2 I sure as hell am not going to run to the store and buy 12/3 just so I can have '4 wires' running to a 240v piece of equipment. get over it

 

[sberry]

Yes, I understand, was merely commenting on size.

 

[53Sparky]

but it still stupid, four wire is cheap and it take the stupid out of the equation

No. It's 100% legal, extremely common place, and simplest way to handle a 240V load that does not require a neutral. All he needs to do is label the white wire at the terminal with a tab of tape.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

but it still stupid, four wire is cheap and it take the stupid out of the equation

Why is it stupid? U havent given any legitamate reasons. Code allows it and there is nothing dangerous about it.

Funny youre arguing over this with people who do this for a living...

 

[Norcal]

but it still stupid, four wire is cheap and it take the stupid out of the equation

It's stupid to buy copper that is not needed for a 240V load, if you have money to squander that is fine, but not everyone is a spendthrift. The OP did just fine except not remarking the whites which is a minor correction.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Red Sharpie is cheap.