Subpanel/Panel bushing question.

[acer66]

Hi there,

I am adding a circuit to this sub panel which was afaik inspected and I saw theses bushings.

I only have seen them in metal studs.

The wires going through them are laying on a suspended ceiling without being fastend anywhere close to the panel.

Is that kosher?

Thank you.

 

[Dagny]

no

 

[acer66]

no

Well that did not take long and thank you.

 

[nadogail]

The conductors need to be protected from physical damage, they do not seem to be rubbing on any sharp edges. Some sort of bushing or grommet would do that, even a short length of split tubing.
Maybe the fact that there is an air space between the cables and the panel satisfied the requirement.

 

[mike93lx]

The conductors need to be protected from physical damage, they do not seem to be rubbing on any sharp edges. Some sort of bushing or grommet would do that, even a short length of split tubing.
Maybe the fact that there is an air space between the cables and the panel satisfied the requirement.

Air gap isn't enough.

That romex with what looks like a disconnected male adapter is concerning too.

 

[Norcal]

A anti-short bushing does not secure the cable(s) where they enter the enclosure, **** work to use the bushings in that application.

 

[sparky 1971]

A anti-short bushing does not secure the cable(s) where they enter the enclosure, **** work to use the bushings in that application.

I've used them several times to make a home inspector happy. Someone fishes romex right through a knockout and calls it good, later the house gets sold, home inspector convinces buyers they will definitely die if they buy the house in that condition. I, being the hero that I am, come to the rescue and save a bunch of lives and it only cost $125.00

 

[acer66]

A anti-short bushing does not secure the cable(s) where they enter the enclosure, **** work to use the bushings in that application.

Thank you for confirming that.

I asked the owner again and it was inspected.

I fixed the disconnected male adapter mike was referring to.

Found a 12 and 14g ground wire under one screw.

Several loose screws on neutrals and ground.

A MWBC on a tandem with no handle.

I wonder how they got away with no AFCI‘s.

I gutted and rewired my house completely a few years before this panel was done.
And everything in the house except for 240V had to be on AFCI breakers and we are in the same county.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Thank you for confirming that.

I asked the owner again and it was inspected.

I fixed the disconnected male adapter mike was referring to.

Found a 12 and 14g ground wire under one screw.

Several loose screws on neutrals and ground.

A MWBC on a tandem with no handle.

Are you sure its a tandem breaker? Cause if it is that creates a potential to overload the neutral.

 

[sparky 1971]

Wow, now that I can see that on my desktop, what a mess. I can say that I have seen worse though.

Thank you for confirming that.

I asked the owner again and it was inspected.

Depending on the location, inspections may not mean much

I fixed the disconnected male adapter mike was referring to.

Found a 12 and 14g ground wire under one screw.

Several loose screws on neutrals and ground.

A MWBC on a tandem with no handle.

Are you sure it's a MWBC? If so, get that taken care of because the neutral is carrying the combined current of both circuits. It may be that the red of one circuit is on the tandem and the black is on either the breaker above or below the tandem. And, it may predate the handle tie rule. I don't remember exactly what edition of the NEC introduced it to us, but it's been fairly recent.

I wonder how they got away with no AFCI‘

I gutted and rewired my house completely a few years before this panel was done.
And everything in the house except for 240V had to be on AFCI breakers and we are in the same county.

It might have been AFCI "protected" at the time of the inspection. Someone might have come along after the fact and thrown the arc fault breakers in the trash where where they belong. I wouldn't ever do such a dastardly thing, but someone else that cares nothing about the safety of others might.

Also, this probably isn't the case, but the inspector may have not even pulled the cover off the panle. I had an inspector call me up and threaten to fail me for not leaving the panel cover off for a final inspection for and addition once. He claimed that his municipality had a rule that stated they couldn't take the panel cover off, it had to be done by the electrician. I had the homeowner meet him so I wasn't even there. He told me that he would let it go this time and trust that I had everything correct, but next time I had better either leave it off or be there for the R&R. That was the last time I pulled a permit in that area.

 

[acer66]

Are you sure its a tandem breaker? Cause if it is that creates a potential to overload the neutral.

The whole panel was filled with tandem breakers except for two quads.

 

[acer66]

Wow, now that I can see that on my desktop, what a mess. I can say that I have seen worse though.

Depending on the location, inspections may not mean much

Are you sure it's a MWBC? If so, get that taken care of because the neutral is carrying the combined current of both circuits. It may be that the red of one circuit is on the tandem and the black is on either the breaker above or below the tandem. And, it may predate the handle tie rule. I don't remember exactly what edition of the NEC introduced it to us, but it's been fairly recent.

It might have been AFCI "protected" at the time of the inspection. Someone might have come along after the fact and thrown the arc fault breakers in the trash where where they belong. I wouldn't ever do such a dastardly thing, but someone else that cares nothing about the safety of others might.

Also, this probably isn't the case, but the inspector may have not even pulled the cover off the panle. I had an inspector call me up and threaten to fail me for not leaving the panel cover off for a final inspection for and addition once. He claimed that his municipality had a rule that stated they couldn't take the panel cover off, it had to be done by the electrician. I had the homeowner meet him so I wasn't even there. He told me that he would let it go this time, but next time I had better either leave it off or be there for the R&R. That was the last time I pulled a permit in that area.

The tandem breaker in question feeds a 14/3 but I am not sure where it goes since the breaker labeling is all over the place.

 

[sparky 1971]

The tandem breaker in question feeds a 14/3 but I am not sure where it goes since the breaker labeling is all over the place.

If it's a 14/3 it needs to get off of the tandem and on to two regular breakers on opposite legs. The use of a handle tie or two pole breaker is entirely up to you.

 

[acer66]

If it's a 14/3 it needs to get off of the tandem and on to two regular breakers on opposite legs. The use of a handle tie or two pole breaker is entirely up to you.

Thank you for clarifying.

 

[sparky 1971]

The whole panel was filled with tandem breakers except for two quads.

Good grief! What is the part number for the panel? I have my doubts as to whether it is listed for all of those tandems. It is pretty easy to get a Siemens tandem to fit in places it's not meant to be though. At least I've heard that before.

 

[sparky 1971]

Thank you for clarifying.

You could also use a quad if one is available with a two pole 15 in the center. You don't have much to work with in that mess.

 

[mike93lx]

You could also use a quad if one is available with a two pole 15 in the center. You don't have much to work with in that mess.

Crazy to think that panel was chosen knowing the amount of tandems they'd need. No way it's all rework

 

[acer66]

Good grief! What is the part number for the panel? I have my doubts as to whether it is listed for all of those tandems. It is pretty easy to get a Siemens tandem to fit in places it's not meant to be though. At least I've heard that before.

 

[sparky 1971]

The 12/24 means it's a 12 space panel capable of supporting 24 circuits. It's listed for use with all of those tandems. Stupid, but still code compliant. Someone saved about $10 by buying that panel, but then spent an extra $100 in breakers.

 

[acer66]

The 12/24 means it's a 12 space panel capable of supporting 24 circuits. It's listed for use with all of those tandems. Stupid, but still code compliant. Someone saved about $10 by buying that panel, but then spent an extra $100 in breakers.

Cool and maybe the prior owner installed the panel original because his style of work throughout the house is summed up by the state of this panel perfectly.

 

[mike93lx]

Cool and maybe the prior owner installed the panel original because his style of work throughout the house is summed up by the state of this panel perfectly.

My condolences

 

[acer66]

My condolences

Thank you.

The guys work would make for a good conversation piece.
I talked to him a few times when the current owner bought the house a few years back and he was really nice but his craftsmanship was lets say interesting.

From simple things like putting non dimmable led’s on dimmers over a habit to bury boxes, installing motion sensor lights where the feeding wire just ends somewhere in the attic insulation and so on.

The electrical highlight was his elaborate incandescent landscape lighting which was also a selling point for the current owner with half a dozen big transformers all over the place catching fire almost burning the house down a few weeks in after the sale.

That carries over to cabinetry, plumbing and whatever else he could get his hands on.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Wtf

 

[mm08822]

I've used them several times to make a home inspector happy. Someone fishes romex right through a knockout and calls it good, later the house gets sold, home inspector convinces buyers they will definitely die if they buy the house in that condition. I, being the hero that I am, come to the rescue and save a bunch of lives and it only cost $125.00

After the Home Inspector report was read, you became a SUPER-HERO to fix those items.

 

[mm08822]

It's usually a quick find to figure out the HO did the work. So many times the methods used are harder than doing the correct way with the proper hardware.

 

[acer66]

I thought about starting a new thread but maybe not.
If it should let me know.
Thank you.

This is still on the same job and I am still trying to clean electrical things up while I go around working on stuff.


The first pic is a buried box roughly 10” up from the ceiling.
2nd pic is looking at the box from underneath the ceiling.

Is there a way to make it code compliant with an access panel?

It is also a bit of tricky location in general.

The red dot is where the box roughly is and the first pics were taken from the right side of the glass block wall which is the shower stall.


Thank you.

 

[Innovate1]

If you put an access panel to get to the box I think it's good. Think the rule may be that the panel doesn't require any tools to open. Others here will likely clarify that.

 

[sparky 1971]

A junction box has to be accessible.

NEC definition of accessible is: capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure of finish of the building.

Others might tell you that it has to be readily accessible, junction boxes do not have to be. Equipment such as breakers, disconnects, and GFCI's do have to be though.

Readily accessible: Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite to take actions such as to use tools (other than keys), to climb over or under, to remove obstacles, or to resort to portable ladders and so forth.

As long as you can get to the box without having to destroy anything, you are ok. Having to take out a few screws is fine.

 

[acer66]

Thank you guys that helps me a lot.


3 12/2‘s in the box and the ground was about 1/16” max away from the neutral screw.

 

[Norcal]

Thank you guys that helps me a lot.


3 12/2‘s in the box and the ground was about 1/16” max away from the neutral screw.

When using a cut in box like the one shown above remove the ears off the device & it will seat better, as will the plate.

 

[acer66]

When using a cut in box like the one shown above remove the ears off the device & it will seat better, as will the plate.

That is a great tip, thank you.


The more I work on the remodel the more tricky it gets with the the space in the subpanel.

Discovered a run where a plastic box was attached with a single drywall screw, 12g and 14g on the same circuit feeding random hallway lights and receptacles all hooked up to a 20A bathroom circuit.

Another bathroom also feeds half of the adjacent office.

Looks like I opened up a big ole can of worms.