Substandard roof replacement/repair

[JJ13]

Nice, I just got done typing the entire message and was logged out before I finished...lost it all!

I could use some more advice if there are any roofers here or from those that have dealt with similar roofing issues. About two weeks ago I had my roof replaced after suffering hail damage. The neighbor is good friends with this contractor and the business has an A-, BBB rating. I went with them after having another fly by night company swap out his card in my door and thankfully screwed me over by not showing up on the initial insurance inspection. This guy called them back for a second inspection.

Before signing the contract he sat down with me to go over the insurance damage estimate. We deducted for the new exhaust vent flashing and rain cap that I provided after having an orphaned water heater vent stack replaced. We also deducted jobs that I will complete myself (painting, gutter work, window/door screen replacement). His contract was very general only stating "replace roof" with the total cost minus my deductible. I gave him a check for the deductible but he hasn't cashed it yet.

Included in the overall price on the insurance estimate is $450-500 to R&R the rusted chimney flashing. Only they initially reused most of the rusted flashing and didn't weave them properly. Water could get under the flashing and into a hole to the attic space. Thankfully he sent another guy that installed a new flashing kit and did excellent work

Back to the unresolved, cracked ridge caps issue. The roof is 4:12 or 5:12 pitch and the day they installed was overcast 30-40F with absolutely no sunshine. When I got home from work I quickly found all the cracked ridge caps. I took pictures and video in case this turns ugly and I need to proof in court. I have also been keeping detailed, dated notes as well as text communication screenshots since this isn't going smoothly.

After the contractor's first text asking where to place the materials, communication has been lacking. This is my first insurance claim and first roof replacement. I don't expect him to hold my hand through the job but need to know what's going on and when so I can get my severely anxious dog out of the house. For example, last week he stopped by to drop off the chimney flashing kit and my brother was there eating lunch. He was off work for the holidays and his refrigerator is being warranty repaired so all his stuff is in my fridge. Anyway, the contractor asked him to tell me what was going on. My brother told him he should contact me directly but he never did.

After more than a week of the unused pallet materials blocking access to one bay of my garage I moved them beside the garage, just inside my fence. Not only was I tired of driving around them trying not to hit them while backing out in the dark, I was also worried they might get stolen. Many roofs near me have been replaced and it isn't the best neighborhood. The two unopened bundles of ridge cap shingles will be needed so he can't take those back. Was I wrong to move it? Maybe he thinks I'm trying to keep it but I just wanted them further out of casual sight and out of my way. Last thing I need is another insurance claim to repair my car/s!

When I texted the contractor about replacing the chimney flashing he responded saying it would be replaced "this week". I immediately thanked him and sent two pictures showing some of the cracked ridge cap shingles asking when they would be replaced...no response.

Now, more than a week later I texted again asking directly about those cracked shingles and still got no response. I will call him later today but texting has been our main communication up to this point. He still has yet to write up an invoice to submit to my insurance and that needs to include the work I'm doing. I know he isn't happy having to pay another guy to install the chimney flashing kit but it was never done properly and of course he included that money when figuring his payment. I'm not looking for a fight but trying to be proactive in case this ends up in court.

There are still 14-17 obviously cracked shingles that can be spotted standing 5-10 feet away, and nearly 40 with thin cracks...out of about 110 total. I asked if it was because they weren't preheated or if it needed to wait until Spring but got no response.

Does anybody think moving the two unopened bundles of cap shingles into my garage is wrong? At least until I hear back from him. I might need to finish this myself and don't want them taking those bundles away before the job is completed properly. Today I'll move the pallet back outside my fence and if they get stolen, it's not my problem.

Cracked and Damaged Shingles

Original Flashing Job

New Flashing, Single Weave Job

Thanks for your input,
Jess

 

[Radix2]

I'm not sure the concern about moving the materials - has he complained about it? Seems perfectly ok unless it is locked inside when they show up to work...

Those shingles are not cracked due to temperature - there is something under them like nails sticking up puncturing them from below. It is very odd. No question they need to come off and get whatever is going on fixed, I don't see the contractor giving you a hassle on that, it is not a big job and it is a very obvious problem .

 

[bczygan]

I hope you still have all his money...

 

[Firebrick43]

The chimney is still wrong, but was before. Where is the cricket?

You said the roof was replaced?? The shingles around the chimney look horrible?? Both in condition, install(courses uneven in height) and the deck looks lumpy, really lumpy. Did they install these over another layer or two?? Or was the deck in bad shape?

I don't know if I agree with radix about the cracked ridge shingles. Some of them do looked cracked do to folding while cold. Others look like nail cutting from below like he mentioned.

Pursuing court action against most independent roofers is futile. Due to the nature of the work a large majority of roofers are pretty simple minded, with most aspects of their life. Money probably has already gone to beer or weed(a lot of roofers around here pursue even harder drugs) You can't get blood from a turnip.

 

[T_R]

A lot of those are nail pops, the nails underneath are protruding and broke the shingle.

My advice is just **** it up and do it yourself, you probably will never get anything from this guy. You obviously are confident on a roof if you got up there to take the pics.

Ridge cap is easy to do, rip the whole mess off. Pound down the protruding nails underneath and install the new ridge cap. Keep the shingles inside in a heated space until you need them.

 

[matt_i]

Imo not having a cricket on the high side of the chimney is asking for trouble down the road...

Imo the ridge caps need to be replaced. I don't know what's up with the little tears, but I have a hard time seeing that as a mfg or transport mishap. The torn lower edges on the standard shingles are sort of common as pallets of bundles get roughly handled by forklifts, etc. If you do your own work you inspect and segregate those as you build....The nail head that you can see exposed in one pic under the cap is going to be a problem imo. Maybe not today but a little corrosion and there will be the start of a drip.

As stated I would go up with a pry bar and carefully lever the nails out, fill each one with some roofing cement, then go back and replace. Typically start from the south or east, as the prevailing winds usually come from the north or west, and you want those jet streams to wash over the stack and not try to peel them up by the leading edges. I like to save up a handful of loose granules and use those for the very last cap. Apply enough sealer so the entire nail head is buried, then while still wet, fill with the extra granules. In my mind, it gives the sealant a little extra protection from the sun. I like to use the neoprene black-jack #99 roof sealant you get at lowe's. I would hand-nail, for the small qty of shingles it will not be that much slower plus there's no danger of overdriving a nail which creates a leak-inducing divot. Try to find some ring shank nails if you can. The shingle instructions printed on the bundle wrap will probably give you an alternate setup where you apply some dabs of sealant near the lower edges, again to assist with keeping them stuck down. Its worth snapping a chalk line for alignment as well.

This is changing hip-caps this year...I know the previous holes don't have to be filled but its worth the peace of mind to me.



Placing the two strips of additional sealant per instructions. Granted this is with ridge vent...

 

[JJ13]

The chimney is still wrong, but was before. Where is the cricket?

You said the roof was replaced?? The shingles around the chimney look horrible?? Both in condition, install(courses uneven in height) and the deck looks lumpy, really lumpy. Did they install these over another layer or two?? Or was the deck in bad shape?

I don't know if I agree with radix about the cracked ridge shingles. Some of them do looked cracked do to folding while cold. Others look like nail cutting from below like he mentioned.

Pursuing court action against most independent roofers is futile. Due to the nature of the work a large majority of roofers are pretty simple minded, with most aspects of their life. Money probably has already gone to beer or weed(a lot of roofers around here pursue even harder drugs) You can't get blood from a turnip.

Thanks FireBrick, the decking was in bad shape in a few places and they were supposed to replace them but looking up from inside my garage I cannot that any were replaced. There were two layers of shingles installed (not allowed here so it was probably unpermitted work). Those layers were torn off so there was no reason to leave bad decking in place but after seeing the reused, rusted flashing, I doubt they even replaced the flashing up against the house under the siding. I cannot easily check because the siding sits nearly on top of the thicker shingles...not good because it's press board **** that wasn't sealed when they cut it back in many areas. I painted it as best I could for now. I'll probably reside it in a few years if/when it swells up.

They also didn't install drip edge on the back side of the roof behind the chimney like the were supposed to. There was never any on that section and what drip edge was installed previously was not correct. There was no overlap between sections and it was nailed from the face instead of up top on the roof edge. I'm guessing it was an after thought when the second layer went up to help sell the house or because the first roof was leaking.

I'm off work today and never did get a response to my two texts sent 8-9 days apart. I was just about to leave when I saw a dually pickup parked in the center of my drive and a guy putting up a ladder. I had to play charades to get him to understand he needed to move his truck.

He wasn't up there long but I took my dog with me. That's what really pisses me off, no consideration for me planning on getting my dog and myself out of the house when they're working. Good thing I don't have meeting all day while working from home like my brother.

Trust me, I'm not considering any court action especially now that they replaced all but 3-5 of the cracked cap shingles. Maybe the inspector will catch the others. If not I'll pay the contractor just to be rid of him and replace them myself. I kept a few ridge cap and normal shingles from the open bundles. There are at least three normal panels that should have been tossed. I hear you about the damaged shingles. I believe the uneven row where the roofs meet is just added protection. I'll have to check but I would almost bet my life that they are just slide in place with no nails!
I'll take a few extra, uneven shingles over the previous flashing job that was guaranteed to leak.

I'm not going to take them to court. I was just covering my **** from further loss. I was planning on paying somebody else to finish their work next Spring if they called it done. Then I would deduct it from what they are owed for the complete roof replacement. Of course that would only be a few hundred and with a detailed letter sent with the check via certified mail, I doubt they'd pursue that difference.

 

[JJ13]

Imo not having a cricket on the high side of the chimney is asking for trouble down the road...

Imo the ridge caps need to be replaced. *snip*

The nail head that you can see exposed in one pic under the cap is going to be a problem imo. Maybe not today but a little corrosion and there will be the start of a drip. *snip*

fill each one with some roofing cement, then go back and replace. *snip*


I like to save up a handful of loose granules and use those for the very last cap. Apply enough sealer so the entire nail head is buried, then while still wet, fill with the extra granules. In my mind, it gives the sealant a little extra protection from the sun. I like to use the neoprene black-jack #99 roof sealant you get at lowe's.

Thank you Matt! Great advice. There isn't much I can do about installing a "cricket". I've noticed them on other roofs and am not sure I want to deal with installing one myself. All but 3-5 of the damaged caps were replaced today. One or two are still pretty obviously cracked from being folded IMO. The others are barely noticeable but the cracks are 2-3" in length even if they aren't yet broken. I'm hoping the bottom layers are ok for now. I'll replace them next Spring if the inspector doesn't catch them and force them to replace those.

Thanks for spotting that bare nail head. I went back through the pictures to find it. Those shingles were replaced WITHOUT additional sealant in the old holes. I'll check for any other exposed nails. On the west side where they ended the caps, there is one shingle with six nails in it. One nail is on the extreme edge of the shingle and the caulk wasn't applied to fully cover them. They were obviously going too fast or their arms were like jello at the end of a long day. I will remove that shingle because one of the obviously cracked shingles sits below it.

I'll grab that sealant you mentioned and try your granule trick. I still have to clean out the nails from the upper gutter and I'm sure I'll get lots from the gutter. If not, I pulled a few of the cut shingles scraps out of the trailer the next day. I can scrape those now that I have 1/2 bundle of normal and ridge cap shingles.

I don't mind that the shingles don't line up the last 2 rows where the garage meets the upper roof. I also now see how uneven the caps are compared to the last row. I doubt anybody will notice because the roof pitch is quite flat and the house sits at least 6' above street level.

I really hate that I have to go up there to correct this. I mentioned in another thread...my grandfather was a carpenter that built his own house, and my father (what little time I spent with him) worked with construction, mainly siding, windows, and doors. Either I grew up with tools in my hand and always within reach, or it runs in the blood.

Now that I know the cost of materials, I REALLY wish that I'd bought a few tools and tackled the job myself. I could have paid to have the old layers torn off and hauled away. Either that or taken the day off and pulled up a lawn chair to watch them work. I have my doubts if they applied proper amount of granule tar paper and ice guard with how much is left over on the pallet. I know it's best to order extra and return the unused stuff but it doesn't make me feel any better.

 

[JJ13]

I'm not sure the concern about moving the materials - has he complained about it? Seems perfectly ok unless it is locked inside when they show up to work...

Those shingles are not cracked due to temperature - there is something under them like nails sticking up puncturing them from below. It is very odd. No question they need to come off and get whatever is going on fixed, I don't see the contractor giving you a hassle on that, it is not a big job and it is a very obvious problem .

Funny that he sent me a text after walking the roof to say "everything looks good". The problems weren't obvious to him until I texted him pictures. More likely, he knows it might pass inspection and he wasn't expecting me to get up there and look it over carefully. How many customers do so or know what to look for?

Today the guy wasn't up on the roof for very long to replace ~34 shingles. I know he didn't apply sealant to the previous nail holes before installing new caps. He didn't take a caulking gun up with him from what I saw as I left. If it were me I would have sealed them as Matt said, for peace of mind.

My concern about moving the materials was because I'm trying not to rock the boat too much and upset him. I was concerned they might think I was trying to keep the materials. I also really didn't want them to be returned and end up needing those bundles to do repairs myself. I've totally been left in the dark. I learned this afternoon that the final inspection hasn't been scheduled only because I was driving past city hall and decided to stop and ask them.

I vented my frustration with the crew before the job even began. He asked me if it was ok to drop the pallet on the left side of my drive and I told him that was fine. My Miata sits on that side and is stored for the winter. What upset me after a very long, hard day of forced overtime at work was coming home the day he said they'd start and finding no work was done. But it gets worse...the large trailer was parked up near my house on the right side, parked on top of my irrigation head, totally blocking access for me to park in the garage. I just bought a new car and have had two cars broken into (one incident) while sitting empty in the drive. What if they had blocked a vehicle that I or a family member needed inside the garage? There was NO reason to park the trailer there the evening before they started. I joked with friends and family about charging them a storage fee. Like somebody said, small minded guys but I'm sure exhaustion plays a small part. I quickly apologized for venting and everything seemed fine until the contractor stopped communicating.

 

[6768rogues]

That chimney should have a saddle (what we call a cricket). It might be ok without one, but you are in snow country and snow and ice will collect behind that chimney. Also, the chimney flashing is a really sloppy job. It is all hammered and looks like hell. I would have made the counter flashing from brown coil stock that matches the roof and would have covered the downhill side. The holes in shingles are from nails, they had their air pressure wrong, had inadequate air supply or hit a knot and did not pull the nail. Carelessness.
Make sure the downhill side of the vent flashing is on top of shingles and only covered by the second layer.

 

[ard]

Not sure what this 'inspection' is...but if you want the inspector to catch stuff, just ask him to catch stuff...

 

[spudley]

This is the problem with using someone's "friend". I agree completely with 6768 and believe you'll get a leak around that chimney, probably also leak under the vent stack as the shingles are on top of the bottom flashing rather than under.
Now that's roofing 101 stuff so I'd have little confidence in anything they've done.
I'd have a serious talk with the bossman at that so-called roofing outfit.
This whole episode is really frustrating as you had an ideal opportunity to repair the weak sheathing that they ignored. Just to make a quick buck. Damn...

 

[spudley]

Imo not having a cricket on the high side of the chimney is asking for trouble down the road...

Imo the ridge caps need to be replaced. I don't know what's up with the little tears, but I have a hard time seeing that as a mfg or transport mishap. The torn lower edges on the standard shingles are sort of common as pallets of bundles get roughly handled by forklifts, etc. If you do your own work you inspect and segregate those as you build....The nail head that you can see exposed in one pic under the cap is going to be a problem imo. Maybe not today but a little corrosion and there will be the start of a drip.

As stated I would go up with a pry bar and carefully lever the nails out, fill each one with some roofing cement, then go back and replace. Typically start from the south or east, as the prevailing winds usually come from the north or west, and you want those jet streams to wash over the stack and not try to peel them up by the leading edges. I like to save up a handful of loose granules and use those for the very last cap. Apply enough sealer so the entire nail head is buried, then while still wet, fill with the extra granules. In my mind, it gives the sealant a little extra protection from the sun. I like to use the neoprene black-jack #99 roof sealant you get at lowe's. I would hand-nail, for the small qty of shingles it will not be that much slower plus there's no danger of overdriving a nail which creates a leak-inducing divot. Try to find some ring shank nails if you can. The shingle instructions printed on the bundle wrap will probably give you an alternate setup where you apply some dabs of sealant near the lower edges, again to assist with keeping them stuck down. Its worth snapping a chalk line for alignment as well.

This is changing hip-caps this year...I know the previous holes don't have to be filled but its worth the peace of mind to me.



Placing the two strips of additional sealant per instructions. Granted this is with ridge vent...

As always Matt, excellent job. You should have a home repair show.

 

[JJ13]

Here are some new pictures to go along with the continuation of this story...
Remaining issues after round three

Today after work I went up again to recheck for exposed nails on the ridge and look at that extra shingle where the garage ridge meets the main roof. I'm officially DONE with them. He's sending an invoice as of last night so I sent another frustrated text with two new pictures. One showing the shingle with a loose nail stuck from underneath plus a second picture showing that extra cap shingle that didn't align with the other shingles. Sure enough I guessed correctly. It was loose just like another that I found earlier but that area was redone. The guy obviously knew the nails went through the shingle because he applied sealant on top of them. It easily pulled out rotating on one solitary nail.

His crew has been here three times now (initial install + new chimney flashing + replacing cracked ridge caps) so I told him I'll fix the rest myself. Somebody mentioned the phrase "hack job" and while I know he didn't personally do the work he did walk the roof at least twice and didn't notice any of the stuff I have asked them to fix. Now I fully agree. HACK JOB. I won't be recommending them and my neighbor will probably hear that I was a pain in the ****. I'll admit I tend towards being a perfectionist but I'm not willing to accept obviously substandard work. They don't seem to take pride in their work.

Here's my fix it list:

1. Remove the two nails that went through the extra cap
shingle, seal the holes, replace that cap with a new one only if necessary!. It looks terrible because it doesn't align with the other rows on the main roof.

2. Replace at least two remaining cracked ridge cap shingles. One is OBVIOUS but that is easy work.

3. Replace the shingle that has a nail stuck sideways from underneath and seal the starter course where it penetrated. Looks like it popped through after being stepped upon.

4. Finish painting the exhaust vent stack (only painted one side) and paint the new flashing around the chimney.

5. I already spent 20 minutes reconnecting my antenna wire that they ripped off. They could have easily loosened the thumb screws to remove the wire properly before pulling the antenna out of the mount. I gave them a week after my initial request but they never returned. I stripped the wires, crimp new ends on, and sealed it with heat shrink. I could have spent $2 for a new part but I would have wasted more time driving to the store and back.

6. I already straightened both sides of one vent that looked like it had been kicked in. I know it was only cosmetic but it bothered my OCD side being brand new. They likely kicked it after it was installed and said "screw it".

7. Use my old speaker magnets to pick up the remaining nails that I missed. I expected to find nails but they didn't use tarps. The first day I spent ~30 minutes picking up close to 400 nails crawling on my hands and knees. They obviously didn't use a magnetic pick up tool. No walking barefoot next Spring!

 

[JJ13]

That chimney should have a saddle (what we call a cricket). It might be ok without one, but you are in snow country and snow and ice will collect behind that chimney. Also, the chimney flashing is a really sloppy job. It is all hammered and looks like hell. I would have made the counter flashing from brown coil stock that matches the roof and would have covered the downhill side. The holes in shingles are from nails, they had their air pressure wrong, had inadequate air supply or hit a knot and did not pull the nail. Carelessness.
Make sure the downhill side of the vent flashing is on top of shingles and only covered by the second layer.

Now that you mention it, the wavy, hand pounded flashing edge does look bad. I guess it was too much trouble to climb up and down to use a brake but what is there looks much better than the old, rusted flashing that was glued to the bricks. I kept a can of the spray paint they used to paint the water heater vent stack (only painted one side)


Thank you very much for pointing out that I should check the vent stack flashing/shingle weave. I didn't notice that until I rechecked the pictures.

I'll look into buying and installing a cricket...or are they usually custom bent? My other neighbor is a contractor. I really should have talked with him before deciding on using the other guy. He had his roof replaced as well so he should be able to refer me to somebody that can make a cricket to fit and/or install it for me. I agree it should have been installed with all the snow we get here in MN!

I carefully checked the chimney flashing in the valley to make sure the shingles and flashing overlapped properly. The first attempt was a joke. I'll just use the brown spray paint after I clean any oil off it. Brown flashing would have been better!

 

[JJ13]

This is the problem with using someone's "friend". I agree completely with 6768 and believe you'll get a leak around that chimney, probably also leak under the vent stack as the shingles are on top of the bottom flashing rather than under.
Now that's roofing 101 stuff so I'd have little confidence in anything they've done.
I'd have a serious talk with the bossman at that so-called roofing outfit.
This whole episode is really frustrating as you had an ideal opportunity to repair the weak sheathing that they ignored. Just to make a quick buck. Damn...

Thanks Spudley. I uploaded a better picture of the vent stack. It is installed properly but was hard to tell in the other picture.

I may still contact the company directly and see if there is anybody above this guy. I'll wait for the invoice to verify but don't think they replaced any decking. He said he'd only charge me cost of materials. The softest area is around the vent stack. When the stack was replaced I noticed that it exits on the edge of one decking sheet. I believe it feels soft because there is nothing tying the long edges together.

I think I'll get back up in the crawl space, carefully measure the decking thickness, and screw/glue in two plywood pieces to bridge the 8' edge that is unstable. Don't newer roof installs use metal clips on the long edge to tie them together? The house was built in 1977.

 

[JJ13]

Not sure what this 'inspection' is...but if you want the inspector to catch stuff, just ask him to catch stuff...

The problem with asking the inspector to catch stuff is that I don't know who it will be or when the final permit inspection is scheduled. There are many inspectors in my city. I later found out I got the worst guy (most ****) for the final inspection of the deck I built. It was funny watching him walk up and down the stairs telling me he could feel the 1/16" difference in height of the one step that he was trying to fail me over.

I'm sure the contractor will just show pictures of the ice guard and tar paper before a quick walk over the roof. A week ago I stopped at city hall to verify a permit was pulled. It was never posted on my front door. Then the other day I went back to see if the final inspection had already been completed. The lady barely answered my question before rudely running off.

IF it hasn't been done yet, he/she will surely see the extra loose cap shingle. I left it partially rotated leaving the sealed nail holes visible. It'll still divert water but until I get up there this weekend to fix it, it'll be obvious that it's loose.

I really just want this to be over and done with. I didn't just trust my neighbor's word, I researched the company before hiring them. I should have gone with my gut when the guy was 1.5 hours late to go over the contract on the day before the planned install but I'd already signed off that I would hire them for calling the insurance inspector back to fight over the damage. He wouldn't do it without being assured he'd get the job which is understandable. I was going to wait to vent my frustrations until after they were paid but I couldn't contain my frustration that long. After my last text telling him everything I still need to fix, he knows I'll never recommend them.

 

[bczygan]

If you withhold some of his money, to pay someone else to fix the work, you better give this guy all the required legal opportunity to repair it himself, first.

And document everything with registered return receipt requested letters.

Otherwise you leave yourself open to his suing you.

Was the job properly contracted with a detailed agreement? When I let a contract for any subcontractor, I know as much about what they will do, as they do. EVERYTHING is defined. A builder I worked for once used to say this. His job, (The builders) is not to do ANYTHING. No repairs, no cleanup, nothing. Every task is assigned to the subcontractors. And all these tasks and their standards are in the contract documents. Anything not done or done to the standards WILL be deducted from the contractors payment. That's why you don't pay them until the work is completed, inspected by the builder, owner and jurisdiction(s) having authority, and approved by all.

It should be no different for a homeowner.

I would be really interested in the contract on this one. Redact personal and company info and show it to us.

Bill

 

[JJ13]

Thanks Bill, what you recommended was what I was planning but now they are so close to having it done properly (only five shingles need to be replaced) that I told them I'll fix the rest, just send the invoice. I'm going to buy a tube of sealant today and finish the rest.

If they had left the 17 obviously cracked cap shingles and sent an invoice I would have sent a certified letter requesting they replace them and given them about two weeks to do so. With the lack of replies to my communication attempts (absolutely no heads up on if/when the work would be done), I would have considered the job to be abandoned and pursued somebody else to replace them. If there's one thing I'm good at is covering my a$$.

The contract is very vague. This was my first ever insurance claim and major project. In hindsight, he was more concerned with setting the maximum price based off my insurance estimate instead of looking at what they said needed to be done. There were NO details, just something like repair/replace roof. Very, VERY stupid of me to sign but now I know. I should have at least had them notate that the items on the insurance list would be completed as well as the promised replacement of any bad decking they found (at my cost). I would think finding decking where the 8' sides were warped and not level, would fit that description!

Although I've seen a few, I didn't know what a cricket was until it was too late. I bet with my roof dumping water/snow on the long side of my chimney, it becomes even more important. They never installed drip edge on three of the four roof faces. They left one section I just added last year along with the improperly installed drip edge on the front of the garage. Now it's going to take more time and be more difficult to install/replace.

When I signed the contract I was very tired. I walk about 10 miles each day and have forced overtime this time of year which means even more walking. I was frustrated that he was more than an hour late to our appointment, and I didn't fully understand what I was signing was so vague. This will never happen again and I hope other's use my experience to push for a detailed contract, not just a single page tally of overall cost.

This experience again reminds me of why I learned to do almost every/any repair myself since I started driving and was screwed over by a major brake repair chain with my first car and later by a car dealer after buying a lemon. I didn't have crazy high expectations, jobs just weren't done properly and/or I felt like I was taken advantage of.

 

[JJ13]

Another update after replacing the damaged shingles. When I removed the cracked cap shingles that still remained after their third visit, I found more were cracked on the hidden, overlapped part. There are probably many more so it should be totally removed and redone IMO. The contractor isn't going to agree to that and I already told him I'll fix the rest of his crew's poor work. Lowes sells the shingles so I could buy another bundle or two and redo it all...maybe later next Spring.

I also saw they shot the decking shingle nails too deeply. The nails are buried half way down through each shingle almost through the top layer. Nothing I can do about that and they will definitely not replace the entire roof but it sure would be nice to start over, replace some decking, and install drip edge cap where it's missing and/or improperly installed.

While I had the tube of sealant out I checked the flashing around the chimney. I know they didn't use roofing tar when the new flashing was installed. On the step flashing pieces that I could see/access, nails were driven into the bottom corners and barely covered by the shingle edge. I put a generous blob on each nail head and pressed the shingles back down. The more I look, the more hack job issues I find.

I'm going to leave it as is and hope it holds for 15-20 years until I can retire. I plan on selling the house and moving someplace with warmer weather and away from this "Minnesota Nice" ****.

 

[JJ13]

Ok, the evening before our first snowfall I fixed the remaining issues with the damaged ridge cap shingles and replaced the ugly extra shingle where the garage peak meets the main roof. It was added because it was a low spot and the guy that replaced the chimney flashing after the roof was installed pulled it out and used sealant to cover the holes where he ripped it off the nails. Grrr! This had been a borderline hack job all along.

Now the issuance check has been signed and submitted to my loan company (bank has to cosign, slightly over $10k) and the contractor just asked me for the adjuster's number. Why would he need to talk to my insurance after the check had been cut?

Final inspection was not completed (snow) so I'll have to wait until Spring and get a waiver from supply company before paying contractor. My loan company might require another inspection paid out of the insurance $$. I understand but what a royal pain this project/process had been!

I'm going to call adjuster tomorrow to ask him and am ignoring contractor for tonight. I just cannot understand why he wants or needs to talk with them at this point. Any ideas?

Thanks

 

[73fxe]

Despite the problems You have had, You plan on holding a check (or the cash) for 3 or 4 months? Didn't the roofer buy Your Shingles and pay for his men to replace Your roof? If You have complaints about quality You can withhold about 10 or 20 percent of the total bill, but anything else I'd think He will take You to court over.

 

[JJ13]

He was already paid 50% with my deductible. His final payment will be withheld until it passes inspection and the bank releases the insurance funds. He cannot sue me over that. Besides, it doesn't answer my question...I'll figure it out tomorrow likely before anything helpful is posted

 

[JJ13]

The chimney is still wrong, but was before. Where is the cricket?

UPDATE! To answer your question...no cricket was installed. I didn't know about them until after the job was completed or I would have asked the cost to install one. BUT, it gets better. The roof failed final inspection...because it doesn't have the required cricket!

Contractor states "The cricket code must be something new." Hmm, sorry, I talked to a city inspector tonight who verified it's been required for at least three years, more like 6-10 years through multiple code change cycles.

Previously he threatened he might need to protect his financial interests but he backed down when I told him I have detailed notes, text messages, as well as pictures and video (the improperly weaved shingles/chimney flashing, the rusted through chimney flashing that he was being paid to replace, as well as all the damaged ridge cap shingles, and ripping the antenna wire off instead of loosening the easily turned thumb screws). He knows I also have proof after they installed new chimney flashing that there was one shingle that was ripped out of the valley and reinstalled onto the nails only tacked in place with sealant over those nails. It was obviously ripped out, the nails weren't pried out.

Last Thursday when it failed inspection I contacted him and told him about the required cricket. He said we'll be out tomorrow "to install the cricket". Of course that didn't happen so today I asked for an update because I don't want to be drugging my dog daily. We previously discussed that I needed to take my dog to my brother's but they weren't here on the day the contractor stated work would start, and the next two "repair" trips were totally unannounced. This will be their third trip back after the initial install

He said work with be done later this week and he'll be over to get the check on Friday. I reminded him again that he will get the check immediately AFTER it passes final inspection. Per advice here and two other local contractors that I have spoken with, final payment isn't done until you never expect to see him/them again. He should have written the contract better and I understand the final ~55% agreed upon payment is a large chunk. I'm tempted to pay 1/2 of that and leave ~25% held back if he asks nicely.

He mentioned contacting my insurance to try and get more $$$ to cover code compliance because he knows I don't want to pay out of pocket. WHAT? Why would I pay for HIS mistake? I told him he should have known and discussed this BEFORE signing the contract. He walked the roof twice, once with me and again more than a month later with the insurance inspector. The chimney is 40" wide.

I'm willing to defend myself in court if he chooses to try and force payment before final inspection. I have the contract that states the insurance estimated work is included and will be completed, at least that's how I read it. If that's the case, I'll be counter-suing for my time and labor fixing their so called hack job as well as time spent missing work and preparing to defend myself, not that I want to go down that road. I would guess he won't go that route because it will further delay and complicate things.

Am I wrong to think he should eat the cost of installing the cricket to pass final inspection? Why should I have to pay for HIS mistake? I might be willing to split the cost IF he deducts the $250 for work that he failed to do, especially after I put two hours in replacing shingles they were supposed to fix on their 2nd/3rd trips.

 

[JJ13]

Despite the problems You have had, You plan on holding a check (or the cash) for 3 or 4 months? Didn't the roofer buy Your Shingles and pay for his men to replace Your roof? If You have complaints about quality You can withhold about 10 or 20 percent of the total bill, but anything else I'd think He will take You to court over.

Thanks for your comment. I understand the position he is in, he or the company he works for did pay for materials and labor. My issue is that even though they are licensed in MN, if I pay all but 10-20%, what's to stop this guy from walking away without finishing the job so it passes final inspection? I don't know that being licensed actually carries any weight...or does it?

As far as I know he no longer works for the company or is soon to be leaving. He was training to become an insurance inspector. I would be willing to pay another chunk with written agreement that the cricket will be installed and any work needed to pass inspection BEFORE the final payment ~20%. He asked for the final chunk long before the inspection was scheduled and again recently after it failed to pass. He claims oops, must be a new code change when it's been a requirement for a minimum of 3 years, more like 6-10 years per a city inspector.

Now he's talking about prying more money out of my insurance for code compliance or possibly making me pay out of pocket for his ignorance of meeting current codes.

 

[scottydosnntkno]

Thanks for your comment. I understand the position he is in, he or the company he works for did pay for materials and labor. My issue is that even though they are licensed in MN, if I pay all but 10-20%, what's to stop this guy from walking away without finishing the job so it passes final inspection? I don't know that being licensed actually carries any weight...or does it?

As far as I know he no longer works for the company or is soon to be leaving. He was training to become an insurance inspector. I would be willing to pay another chunk with written agreement that the cricket will be installed and any work needed to pass inspection BEFORE the final payment ~20%. He asked for the final chunk long before the inspection was scheduled and again recently after it failed to pass. He claims oops, must be a new code change when it's been a requirement for a minimum of 3 years, more like 6-10 years per a city inspector.

Now he's talking about prying more money out of my insurance for code compliance or possibly making me pay out of pocket for his ignorance of meeting current codes.

It is standard practice in the insurance industry to ask for additional funds to meet current code.

When your house as built, a cricket wasn’t required. He was contracted to replace the damaged roof. If there is no mention in the contact of meeting code, etc then he did his job. The inspector/code wanting it updated to code is additional cost.

It is a extension of the grandfather rule.

A house with galvanized drain pipes may work fine but would never pass inspection today. If you hire a contractor to replace a leaking section, and your city is strict and require all galvanized be replaced when touching any part and it’s not spelled out in the contract it’s on you or your insurance.

In most areas a contractor can not be expected to know each cities requirements
Above and beyond code. We work in over 27 different cities and townships, and cannot kno the requirements of everyone.

Most professional contractors contacts require payment upon substantial completion. If the roof is installed and the supplier paid, then the roof is substantially done. There may be minor details (flashing/cricket) to detail out, and final inspection, but that is what we are licensed and have warranties for to be sure the job is finished.

 

[JJ13]

It is standard practice in the insurance industry to ask for additional funds to meet current code.

When your house as built, a cricket wasn’t required. He was contracted to replace the damaged roof. If there is no mention in the contact of meeting code, etc then he did his job. The inspector/code wanting it updated to code is additional cost.

It is a extension of the grandfather rule.

A house with galvanized drain pipes may work fine but would never pass inspection today. If you hire a contractor to replace a leaking section, and your city is strict and require all galvanized be replaced when touching any part and it’s not spelled out in the contract it’s on you or your insurance.

In most areas a contractor can not be expected to know each cities requirements
Above and beyond code. We work in over 27 different cities and townships, and cannot kno the requirements of everyone.

Most professional contractors contacts require payment upon substantial completion. If the roof is installed and the supplier paid, then the roof is substantially done. There may be minor details (flashing/cricket) to detail out, and final inspection, but that is what we are licensed and have warranties for to be sure the job is finished.

I agree to a certain extent and understand what you're saying. Thanks for the plumbing example. I disagree though that when he took out a permit to install the roof he should know what it takes to pass a permit in Minnesota, he lives and works here. My understanding is that the cricket requirement is pretty standard for closer to a decade not only across Minnesota but nation wide.

It's not a huge expense in materials or ton of added time when it's done DURING the roof install (three guy crew). After the fact I know it's a pain and a loss in material and labor cost. I would have agreed to pay when we signed the contract if insurance had refused.

I'll call my insurance tomorrow and see if I can't help get this worked out. I'm not trying to be a pain in the **** and delay payment, I'm just wanting a solid roof that won't leak anytime soon. IMO, it's his JOB to know basic code compliance and it's not like this just changed last year.

Thanks again for the explanation. If only my contractor could communicate this stuff better and if only I had demanded a more detailed contract...should have fired the guy when he showed up more than an hour late to work out the contract. I've learned to do most everything possible by myself (love to learn how/what/why) so this is my first experience dealing with insurance and hiring a contractor.

 

[JJ13]

There may be minor details (flashing/cricket) to detail out, and final inspection, but that is what we are licensed and have warranties for to be sure the job is finished.

I missed this when I first read your comment. I had to search to understand how being licensed works and why it's beneficial I haven't heard or read anything about a warranty and my contractor hasn't stated there was one. Again, I think this boils down to poor communication. I'll call him tomorrow (can't talk on the phone at work, only text) so that's been our main form of communication.

I already read up on substantial completion and the contract doesn't state substantial. Only says payment due upon completion and IMO, it's not complete if it doesn't pass inspection. With the issues of him not replacing the chimney flashing (he was paid for it) along with the improperly weaved shingle/flashing in the valley that he didn't notice when he walked the roof, as well as all the damaged cap shingles, I don't trust this guy. He stated "the roof looks good" with all those issues. As far as I understand the contract, the insurance work estimate was to be completed. That's why I got so upset to find the rusted through flashing (wouldn't have passed inspection) was reused, especially when he was paid for it. Feels really shady to me. Should he get also pass because he didn't know rusted flashing with holes in it wouldn't meet code? Sorry, I couldn't resist.

 

[JJ13]

One last thing before my head hits the pillow. Sorry to be blasting my own thread with back to back responses.

I checked building code in the city which this contractor is based out of, barely a 10 minute drive away from my house. I also checked all the surrounding cities and learned they have all had this cricket requirement since at least 2015 when 2012 IRC was adopted. How could it be possible that they haven't replaced a roof with a similar chimney situation requiring a cricket in the past 2-3 years within the immediate area? I also searched their license number and it looks like enforcement action has been taken in the past.

Tomorrow while I'm off work I'm going to:
1. Call my insurance to see if they will approve additional pay to comply with code
2. Call or stop by a local roofing contractor that I now know through work to see if he'll talk with me.
3. Call the contractor to talk and record the conversation

 

[GoodStuff]

When I first opened this, I noticed the November 2017 date and thought it was one of those OLD posts that someone had replied to... then I read through the post and couldn't believe this was still going on.

I am a roofing contractor in Kentucky. I know the process well, and can read between the lines on this one... there are several things that strike me as being odd.
-1- Shingles are never to be installed with the coldest part of the day being less than 40 degrees. Below that temperature, and the nails will cause stress fractures of the shingles, and severely impact the longevity of the install. Many of the issues you are noting about cracked ridgecaps are a direct result of the temperature you describe on the day of the install. If the shingles are stored outside, and the temperature dips below 40 degrees the night before, the bundles of shingles will not warm up enough to install.
-2- Much has been said about a cricket behind the chimney. In Kentucky, the insurance company is only "required" to bring the roof back to the original shape it was in prior to the claim. If there is a code upgrade needed, it is the homeowner's responsibility to cover the additional expense. This is, however, something any reputable roofing company should bring to your attention prior to installing the roof. Now that the work has been completed, and the insurance company has already paid what they agreed, I would think it would be the responsibility of the roofing company to bring the roof into compliance.
-3- The ridgecap shingles merely have to cover the holes you mentioned. They will not affect the performance of the roof once they are installed. The cut lines along the ridgecap that you showed in some of the pictures are severely jagged, and could cause gaps that a strong wind or heavy showfall could allow water to get in. This shows poor installation.
-4- You mentioned nails that are "shot through" the shingles. This does not surprise me as you mentioned in an early post that the temperatures were COLD on the day of the install. Goes back to the 40 degree comment above, and tells me there may be hidden issues with the install.

There is more that I have suspicion of... At the end of the day, however, I am merely reading a post and looking at pictures... I would recommend hiring a reputable roofing company to inspect the roof - and ask the company that did the job to be there as well. After the inspection, tell the original roofing company to make the repairs suggested and you will pay him in full. If he does not show up, or if he refuses... hire the inspecting company to do the work, and pay the original contractor the full amount due less the repair bill.

This has been going on way longer than it should have. Don't delay... get it fixed and move on.

 

[JJ13]

Thank you GoodStuff, it's great to hear from another roofing contractor. Before the roof was installed I asked if we should wait until Spring but mentioned that I'd like to get it done (and over with) if possible. The contractor didn't mention any issues related to a cold weather install. I bet he was trying to cram as much work in before winter arrived.

I am about to call my insurance to see if they'll pay for the cricket install...highly doubtful but it's worth a shot. The roofing contractor never mentioned a cricket before writing and signing the contract so I agree, it should be on them to bring the roof into code compliance to "complete" the job. If this were a new code change I'd understand but after 2-3 years they should know to at least mention the issue might pop up and I'd expect the would do a quick check when they obtain the permit. If I found the code requirement with a 20 second Google search.... That's why I hired a "professional".

I just reread my contract which states "all work requested by you beyond that approved by your insurance company shall be your payment responsibility". I texted him that the roof failed final inspection gave him the reason. He replied "The cricket code must be something new. We will be there tomorrow to install cricket." I have never directly requested they install the cricket.

Later he mentioned contacting my insurance because he knew I wouldn't want to pay out of pocket for it. Damn right, not after the fact when it looks like incompetence or trying to get out of more work.

Since he volunteered to install it, if he comes back and tries to bill me, I should have no trouble defending myself in court and I WILL be countersuing if he goes down that path.

 

[ard]

This seems awfully confused by the insurance company being involved...

It is a simply contract between owner and contractor.

If the contract says "install a roof to code" then he must do that.
If he missed that there is a need to install a cricket to meet code, that is his problem- NOT yours, NOT the insurance company.

Dont get all wrapped up in the insurance claim, 'code upgrades', blah blah. yes, the insurance should pay to return the roof to per-accident conditions, perhaps without a cricket- doesnt matter.


He signed a contract for $x to install a roof to code. Period.

 

[dsarge84]

A roof installed to code may not be installed to the shingle manufacturers requirements and therefore would not be warrantied by the manufacturer. Review your contract to see if the roof install will be per the manufacturers requirements. Otherwise you will not have a material or labor warranty on a failed roof. Good luck on getting this resolved soon.

 

[JJ13]

This seems awfully confused by the insurance company being involved...

It is a simply contract between owner and contractor.

If the contract says "install a roof to code" then he must do that.
If he missed that there is a need to install a cricket to meet code, that is his problem- NOT yours, NOT the insurance company.

Dont get all wrapped up in the insurance claim, 'code upgrades', blah blah. yes, the insurance should pay to return the roof to per-accident conditions, perhaps without a cricket- doesnt matter.


He signed a contract for $x to install a roof to code. Period.

This is an insurance claim after a very heavy hail storm last summer. At least one nearby city took their snow plow trucks out to clear the streets. My main problem was not knowing that I should have had a more detailed, better contract and not knowing exactly how to check out this company's history/record.

As far as the contract goes, it doesn't state "to code". It does state everything in the insurance damage estimate was to be completed other than the few things that I am repairing/replacing. The insurance inspector didn't include a cricket install. I called them last night and it sounds like they will retroactively cover the expense if the contractor sends an updated bill with the copy that I made of the failed city inspection paperwork showing why it failed. I'm really hoping they pay because I bet we'll end up in court if they don't. Remember, I didn't directly request the cricket installation. I only told him the reason the inspector failed the roof. He offered to install one so he won't have any legal standing to bill me according to how the contract is worded. I'm still upset most that he didn't realize beforehand with every local city, including the one his company is based out of, having required a cricket if the chimney is greater than 30" wide.

The cricket install isn't finished so I'll reserve judgement until he finishes. He said he'll be back tomorrow to trim the valley shingles and finish nailing the ridge shingles in place (looks like he needs two more, one is set loosely in place). I'm also not that happy with the outer flashing that covers the step flashing. It doesn't wrap entirely around the sides and there are two thumb sized holes that were filled with silicone caulk. I thought the idea was to layer the METAL to guide the water and not rely on sealant!

Tonight I called a new roofing company. I'll schedule an inspection tomorrow morning and gladly pay so I can use their report as leverage against the first roofing company IF anything needs to be redone. If they say it looks ok, then I'll have peace of mind.

A roof installed to code may not be installed to the shingle manufacturers requirements and therefore would not be warrantied by the manufacturer. Review your contract to see if the roof install will be per the manufacturers requirements. Otherwise you will not have a material or labor warranty on a failed roof. Good luck on getting this resolved soon.

The contract doesn't say anything about meeting manufacturer's requirements so I'm screwed about that concern. Part of the reason I started this thread was so others can learn from my mistakes and hopefully avoid the trouble that I have had to deal with. Thanks for mentioning this point, I'll ask this second company to keep this in mind. If there are any future issues, I'll just pay out of pocket to have this second company do the work if I don't have time to do it myself. I have the skills and most of the knowledge but am always exhausted after work and have so many other projects that I figured I'd let a professional roofing company install the new roof. Besides, it would take me a week unless my brother helped and that seems like a waste of paid vacation time! Plus my mortgage company would have required me to pay for inspections to protect their investment.

One thing I've learned is the first contractor would make a great used car salesman. Nothing like telling me he walked the roof and saying it looked good with the rusted out chimney flashing, improperly weaved valley that was 100% guaranteed to leak, as well as all those obviously damaged cap shingles in my pictures. "Our crews do great work" was blowing smoke up my **** to get me to sign the contract. 20-20 hindsight!