Suggestions on my 30x50 lighting plan

[tojoski]

I have been lurking around since I had my shop put up last fall and I am finally getting ready to start hanging some lights and doing some electrical.

This is the original thread: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=164785

My eve's are at 13', so I originally wanted to use T5-HO's, but everyone I spoke to said that if they are less than 15' you will hate them.

Several months go by, and I come across these troffer fixtures on craigslist for $8 each, including the bulbs! Whether I use them or not, I couldn't pass it up. After giving a couple away, I wound up with 21.



They have decent ballasts, and the lenses are removable:





So I have been toying with how I might use these, and to add to the mix, a good friend of mine gave me (3) 400w Metal Halide fixtures that I have been considering using.

I am not married to this layout, in fact I would consider it a 1st draft:



(The green and the blue indicate separate switched circuits)


My big door is 12' so 12 1/2 -13' is where I would hang the lights..

Now for the lumen calculations,

Based on the output of these T8's:
http://www.lowes.com/pd_291833-3-22265_0__?productId=1081809&Ntt=t8&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dt8&facetInfo=

Each troffer fixture would put out 11,200L, x16 = 179,200L /1500SF = 119.46L/SF (-some if I use the lenses)

Based on these 400w MH:
http://www.1000bulbs.com/product/63759/MH-274498.html

Each MH fixture would put out 39000L x3 = 117,000 /1500SF = 78L/SF (initial, as I understand it this would drop to around 40L/SF at about 1/2 their life)

I know efficiency wise, the T8's and the MH are close to the same.. I'm starting to think I shouldn't even bother with the MH's though.. (the hum from them is annoying as well)

I am also not opposed to going back to the drawing board and buying different lights.. just because I got them cheap doesn't necessarily mean I am going to use them.. running conduit and hanging 16 lights is going to be a lot of work.

Here are a couple of pictures from the corners (you can see what my shop has been used for thus far ):




Thanks in advance

 

[kenfath]

FWIW 'I think' you have a workable plan that will provide adequate light. I'd suggest putting in two more light switches in addition to the two you are planning. One switch would control two fixtures and provide minimal lighting when you will be in the building for a short time, such as when parking a vehicle or retrieving a tool. Something like the night light in a bathroom or hallway -- just enough illumination to be safe.

Give some consideration to where you will be spending most of your time -- and -- where you will be spending the least amount of time. The 4th switch would be for the lights in the 'least' location.

 

[2ManyProjects]

I have been lurking around since I had my shop put up last fall and I am finally getting ready to start hanging some lights and doing some electrical.

This is the original thread: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=164785

Well first, I'll echo what others have said: Where do I find a wife like yours?

My eve's are at 13', so I originally wanted to use T5-HO's, but everyone I spoke to said that if they are less than 15' you will hate them.

The short answer is, "I concur"; but this does depend somewhat on what you're comparing them to.

Several months go by, and I come across these troffer fixtures on craigslist for $8 each, including the bulbs! Whether I use them or not, I couldn't pass it up. After giving a couple away, I wound up with 21.

Those fixtures are designed to be used in suspended ceilings, such as you might typically find in office environments. This is not to say that you COULDN'T adapt them; but I would hesitate to call them the best possible choice. OTOH, eight bucks each is hard to argue with.

So I have been toying with how I might use these, and to add to the mix, a good friend of mine gave me (3) 400w Metal Halide fixtures that I have been considering using.

Those MH fixtures are near-certainly "High Bay" types; and as such, you would have the same problem as with T5HO fluorescents -- only moreso. Plus, the spectral output is sure to be vastly different from the fluorescents; so mixing them in "here and there" is likely to produce some decidedly "odd" results. Depending on what stationary machinery and such you might have/put in there, they MIGHT be useful as very intense task lighting; but I suspect you would be best off simply finding another home for them.

I am not married to this layout, in fact I would consider it a 1st draft:

At this point, I have more questions than answers regarding that sketch...

1. - What is the cordoned-off area at the upper left?

2. - What is the white rectangle immediately below that cordoned-off area? It does not appear to be another fixture, based on your pseudo-3D rendering.

3. - Are you planning to leave the interior surfaces finished more-or-less the way they are now? In particular, will you be adding any "hard" wall/ceiling surfaces? And what about "upper" cabinetry inthe workbench area?

4. - What, exactly, do you plan to use this shop for, at least primarily? You're showing parking for two small-ish trucks, a decent-size workbench, and a tool chest; but that doesn't really tell us much. Further, the layout is VERY inefficient from simply a "car parking" point of view (and who needs 1,500 ft.^2 to park two vehicles?); so you presumably DO have some "more ambitious" plans for this facility. How best to light it will depend in part on just what those plans are.

(The green and the blue indicate separate switched circuits)

You will near-certainly want ("need", really) more than two switch banks. First, you need some low-intensity "walk through" lighting; but this should be ONLY a minimal amount, so you won't have to turn on several hundred/thousand watts of light just to go fetch a screwdriver or similar. Second, with enough "installed" light to make things as bright as you will ideally want them for fine detail work, you probably WON'T want that much light (or to use that much power) when doing non-critical tasks. So in addition to "zoning" which is basically what you're showing in that rendering), you also want some control over INTENSITY in each work area.

As for the layout... At least at first glance, I like the "green" bank far more than the "blue" bank. It appears to do a much better job of putting the light where you'll really need it -- i.e., immediately AROUND the vehicle to be worked on. If that other door is also intended to serve "to be worked on" vehicles, I would endeavor to do something similar in that area. To these two "vehicle loops", add some lighting over the workbench, and fill in any still-overlooked areas as needed (possibly with smaller & less power-hungry fixtures).

OTOH, if you have something else entirely in mind for the area served by that end-wall door, then it would be helpful to know what that is.

My big door is 12' so 12 1/2 -13' is where I would hang the lights..

On the contrary, I would suggest hanging the fixtures (slightly) BELOW the level where that door sits when open. This, in combination with some suitably wide-dispersion fixtures (such as the common "wrap" fixtures often mentioned here), would be your best bet for getting light into the area UNDER the door.

Now for the lumen calculations,

Each troffer fixture would put out 11,200L, x16 = 179,200L /1500SF = 119.46L/SF (-some if I use the lenses)

And that is part of the problem. With four tubes in each fixture, you are effectively concentrating the light output into a relatively small number of brightly lit spots, with much larger gaps between them than if you were to use, for example, twice as many twin-tube fixtures. The over all light output would be the same either way, as would the AVERAGE lumens/ft.^2 figures. But the actual effectiveness of the lighting would be better with the latter approach. Now granted, with 12 feet or so of installed height to play with, this will be less of a problem than it is for folks with the 8'-10' ceilings typically found in residential garages; but it remains an issue nonetheless.

I know efficiency wise, the T8's and the MH are close to the same.. I'm starting to think I shouldn't even bother with the MH's though.. (the hum from them is annoying as well)

All the more reason to skip them entirely.

I am also not opposed to going back to the drawing board and buying different lights.. just because I got them cheap doesn't necessarily mean I am going to use them.. running conduit and hanging 16 lights is going to be a lot of work.

Well, wiring for twice as many fixtures with half as many tubes in each one is going to be still more work, especially by the time you break it up into as many switched banks as you really ought to have. But the more important thing is to do it right the first time. Work done over again is always far more difficult (at least judging from the profanity quotient) than work done well the first time.

Here are a couple of pictures from the corners (you can see what my shop has been used for thus far ):

Which I'm gathering is, "not much, yet".

 

[tojoski]

At this point, I have more questions than answers regarding that sketch...

1. - What is the cordoned-off area at the upper left?

It's the bathroom.

2. - What is the white rectangle immediately below that cordoned-off area? It does not appear to be another fixture, based on your pseudo-3D rendering.

In that render it's a sink mounted to the wall. I think it will wind up being a stainless freestanding sink.

3. - Are you planning to leave the interior surfaces finished more-or-less the way they are now? In particular, will you be adding any "hard" wall/ceiling surfaces? And what about "upper" cabinetry inthe workbench area?

Right now the plan is to frame in the walls to the wall girt at about 7' and plywood the interior. Cabinets are a possibility, I also considered a small mezzanine. I will be using 2x8's on top of the bathroom so I can use that for storage as well.

4. - What, exactly, do you plan to use this shop for, at least primarily? You're showing parking for two small-ish trucks, a decent-size workbench, and a tool chest; but that doesn't really tell us much. Further, the layout is VERY inefficient from simply a "car parking" point of view (and who needs 1,500 ft.^2 to park two vehicles?); so you presumably DO have some "more ambitious" plans for this facility. How best to light it will depend in part on just what those plans are.

I want to avoid it turning into a storage facility..the plan was to have two workable areas. one long-term restoration and one that I can get in and out for oil changes, ect. I wanted one large area so I would have plenty of room if I wanted to get the 3/4ton in there, camper, pontoon ect.

You will near-certainly want ("need", really) more than two switch banks. First, you need some low-intensity "walk through" lighting; but this should be ONLY a minimal amount, so you won't have to turn on several hundred/thousand watts of light just to go fetch a screwdriver or similar. Second, with enough "installed" light to make things as bright as you will ideally want them for fine detail work, you probably WON'T want that much light (or to use that much power) when doing non-critical tasks. So in addition to "zoning" which is basically what you're showing in that rendering), you also want some control over INTENSITY in each work area.

As for the layout... At least at first glance, I like the "green" bank far more than the "blue" bank. It appears to do a much better job of putting the light where you'll really need it -- i.e., immediately AROUND the vehicle to be worked on. If that other door is also intended to serve "to be worked on" vehicles, I would endeavor to do something similar in that area. To these two "vehicle loops", add some lighting over the workbench, and fill in any still-overlooked areas as needed (possibly with smaller & less power-hungry fixtures).

OTOH, if you have something else entirely in mind for the area served by that end-wall door, then it would be helpful to know what that is.

Thanks, I'm going to play with the layout some more.. There will be workbenches / tools on the walls parallel to the red truck in that render.

On the contrary, I would suggest hanging the fixtures (slightly) BELOW the level where that door sits when open. This, in combination with some suitably wide-dispersion fixtures (such as the common "wrap" fixtures often mentioned here), would be your best bet for getting light into the area UNDER the door.

The only reason I put them above 12' would be so that if I had something in there 11'6" tall I wouldn't have to worry about hitting the lights.

And that is part of the problem. With four tubes in each fixture, you are effectively concentrating the light output into a relatively small number of brightly lit spots, with much larger gaps between them than if you were to use, for example, twice as many twin-tube fixtures. The over all light output would be the same either way, as would the AVERAGE lumens/ft.^2 figures. But the actual effectiveness of the lighting would be better with the latter approach. Now granted, with 12 feet or so of installed height to play with, this will be less of a problem than it is for folks with the 8'-10' ceilings typically found in residential garages; but it remains an issue nonetheless.

I'm starting to think the 8' x 4 bulb T8 Strips might be a better choice.. I have white insulation so they would reflect nicely...I could hand them or even easier, attach them directly to the purlins. OTOH.. every time I look at the T5HO strips at Home Depot I think; man those are nice!

Maybe I should get one and just hang it up there to test..

 

[2ManyProjects]

Right now the plan is to frame in the walls to the wall girt at about 7' and plywood the interior. Cabinets are a possibility, I also considered a small mezzanine. I will be using 2x8's on top of the bathroom so I can use that for storage as well.

I asked this because the interior finish can have a HUGE effect on the lighting. If you go with plywood, you should paint it some light color (white would be best; very light grey would be OK; real "colors" become problematic as it will create that color "cast" everywhere), to ensure that you maintain good general reflectivity. That will not only enhance overall brightness; it will also go a LONG way toward filling in marginally illuminated areas, supressing shadows, etc; it's not a panacea, but it's well worth doing.

I want to avoid it turning into a storage facility..the plan was to have two workable areas. one long-term restoration and one that I can get in and out for oil changes, ect. I wanted one large area so I would have plenty of room if I wanted to get the 3/4ton in there, camper, pontoon ect.

Unless I'm grossly misinterpreting the sketch, none of that will be ANY problem.

Thanks, I'm going to play with the layout some more.. There will be workbenches / tools on the walls parallel to the red truck in that render.

I think that (additional development of the plan) is a good idea. The more closely you can nail down exactly where benches, cabinets, stationary tools, etc., will be located, the easier it will be to design a truly effective lighting plan. Try to think as far into the future as you can. For example, figure out every tool, machine, etc., you could possibly want, and WHERE it would go if/when you got it. This doesn't mean you necessarily have to go out and buy all those tools right now (or maybe even ever); but if you already have a spot set aside for each one, you'll also know how to light it.

The only reason I put them above 12' would be so that if I had something in there 11'6" tall I wouldn't have to worry about hitting the lights.

Again, if I understand your drawing correctly, that is NOT going to be a problem. The lights near the doors will still be off to the sides somewhat, as opposed to being literally UNDER the doors. So unless you suddenly make a quick turn after pulling in a vehicle, said vehicle will never be directly under any of the lights; hence there is no risk of collision.

I'm starting to think the 8' x 4 bulb T8 Strips might be a better choice..

Probably better than the troffers; but 4-foot twin-tube fixtures would be better yet. Yes, you'll need a lot of them; but that's part of the point. The more you split up the lighting into a greater number of fixtures, the more control you potentially have over both the placement of those fixtures and (more importantly) the switching.

I have white insulation so they would reflect nicely...I could hand them or even easier, attach them directly to the purlins. OTOH.. every time I look at the T5HO strips at Home Depot I think; man those are nice!

I'm not sure what you mean by "hand them"; but in any event, given the ~12-ft. maximum mounting height, you DON'T want T5HOs in there, for precisely the same reason you don't want those 400W Metal Halides: It puts too much light in too few places.

Maybe I should get one and just hang it up there to test..

That would likely be misleading. That single "test hung" fixture will near certainly seem impressively bright (after all a typical T5HO tube puts out nearly twice the light as a standard F32T8); which in turn might seem like "a good thing" at first blush. But in reality, that is precisely the problem. The brighter lamps will permit you to reach your "average lumens/ft.^2" target using fewer fixtures; so it follows that each fixture will be further way from the next one, which can create gaps in the lighting. If you bring the lamps close enough together to eliminate this problem, you're now well into "overkill" territory in terms of total brightness.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Quite frankly, at 12 or 13 ft, the T5HO bulbs will be fine, especially in open strips. Seems everyone is afraid of them, being "too bright" but if mounted right to your roof purlins, they will be 13 ft or so and with open bulbs you will get a great spread of light.

For the fast on, fast off lighting, I recommend a couple of 500 watt quartz floodlights. I have two, mounted on a wall girt about 12 ft high, aimed just right to illuminate the whole building. They are on one 60 ft wall, each 15 ft from the corner, and thus 30 ft apart. Alot of light, fast and cheap. I used these as my sole lighting for about 7½ years. I still use them frequently when I don't want to warm up the Metal Halides or the fluorescents over the workbench. These were $7 or so when I bought them in year 2000!

Charles

http://www.homedepot.com/p/GLOBE-50...ll-Light-Fixture-60522/203976586#.UoGcc3C-2uI

 

[coldh2o]

I just installed the 8' T5HO fixtures from Home Depot. Six fixtures at about 14' high in a 26x40 shop, spaced 12' apart and 4' end to end.

This crappy BlackBerry photo doesn't do them justice, but I find the light very consistent, no shadows or bright areas. Intensity seems ok, the warmth of the light is a bit "fuzzy"(?), I think because it's so different than the LED worklights I've been using.

I may need to add some task lighting for work areas, etc. but I'm quite happy with how it turned out. I'd rather have a slightly lower level of overall intensity than be lit up like a runway and spinning the hydro meter like a top.

 

[UpstateNY]

I may need to add some task lighting for work areas, etc. but I'm quite happy with how it turned out. I'd rather have a slightly lower level of overall intensity than be lit up like a runway and spinning the hydro meter like a top.

Is that knotty pine on the walls ?

 

[coldh2o]

Is that knotty pine on the walls ?

It's 1x6 tongue and groove siding, I believe its pine. They call it #2 grade, which means a fair amount of loose knots and knot holes. Takes a lot of time to sort and cut, but the price is less than $1/sq foot and my labour is free, so worth the time. I didn't want drywall for maintenance reasons - moisture, damage, etc. - and cost of taping, painting, etc. Was going to do plywood but this stuff isn't much more and looks a whole lot better, IMHO.

 

[tojoski]

Thanks guys, a lot of good info here as well as another thread started about the same time.. got some studying to do..