Suggestions on my Garage Lighting

[scott750]

I've been wanting to have decent garage lighting in my 3-car garage. I don't know the exact demensions, but it's about 600 sq ft, has 9ft flat ceilings, and is fully finished (sheetrock & painted).





Last year I installed 5 drop down T-8 twin-bulb shop lights from Lowes. While the light ouput was good, The lighting wasn't always even while working on my vehicles. Here's a quick MSPaint sketch. Forgive me as I'm not the best drawer:



The W/C is an enclosed closet for the water heater and softener. The green box is a switched outlet in the ceiling on a 15a circuit. Right now I have the black flexible cords that normally come attached to these lights strung along the ceiling to the electrical outlet. It looks ugly seeing all 5 lights strung along the ceiling like this and because of the short 5ft length, I can't move these lights into a more efficient position (the 2 outer lights are directly above each car, so the roofs are well lit up). Some of the members here have told me that moving the outer lights to the sides of the vehicles will shine all the light down to the floor where its needed.

So what I was thinking was replacing the central single gang recessed plastic electrical box and installing surface mounted single gang metal electrical boxes and metal conduit tubing. Then I could install electrical boxes in front of each set of lights. I also wanted to install 2 more lights (NEW) to give me more uniform light.



So I wanted to do 6 lights in the 2-car part and only 1 light in the 3rd car part. I only do mechanical maintenance on my vehicles and the current 5 light setup is plenty of light, but just wanted a little more. So the lone light in the 3rd car part should be enough. (My workbench has its own 2ft T8 fluorescent light mounted on the backboard.

Am I on the right track with using metal boxes/conduit for surface mounted electrical boxes? I'm having a difficult time trying to figure out how to go from the central recessed plastic electrical box to mount the surface metal box. Do I have to fully remove the recessed box before installing the metal surface box? Can I use that plastic surface mount electrical stuff or is that only for indoor use? I've read that I will need to use 14/2 THHN wiring. Does that mean I need to buy 3 separate colored wiring (black, white, bare copper) since they aren't in a single jacket? Or can I use Romex 14/2? If I need to use THHN wiring, do I just run the separate wires through the conduit and that's the way it works?

 

[2ManyProjects]

I've been wanting to have decent garage lighting in my 3-car garage. I don't know the exact demensions, but it's about 600 sq ft, has 9ft flat ceilings, and is fully finished (sheetrock & painted).

We already covered 90+% of this in the earlier thread (http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=217226); so I'm just going to hit the high spots here...

Last year I installed 5 drop down T-8 twin-bulb shop lights from Lowes. While the light ouput was good, The lighting wasn't always even while working on my vehicles. Here's a quick MSPaint sketch. Forgive me as I'm not the best drawer:

There are at least two problems evident here. First, with only a 9-foot ceiling to start with, using chain-hung light fixtures further exacerbates the problem of light DISTRIBUTION, as it reduces the distance between the light source and the work surface; hence the light output of each fixture is more concentrated into a smaller area than it would be if it had more distance to spread out over. The fact that the fixtures you chose also have integral reflectors which further direct the light downward (as opposed to letting it spill to the sides) is basically just rubbing salt into the wound.

The W/C is an enclosed closet for the water heater and softener. The green box is a switched outlet in the ceiling on a 15a circuit.

Earlier, you claimed that this was indeed a 20A circuit, using 12-2 NM-B wiring. Why the change?

And while we're on the subject... Have you yet confirmed that this is a DEDICATED circuit, shared by no other loads in either the garage or the house itself?

So what I was thinking was replacing the central single gang recessed plastic electrical box and installing surface mounted single gang metal electrical boxes and metal conduit tubing. Then I could install electrical boxes in front of each set of lights.

That would be doing things the hard way, for no good reason. And at least in my opinion, surface-mounted conduit is scarcely better looking that those plug-in power cords you currently have snaked all over your ceiling. We earlier confirmed that you DO have access to that ceiling via the attic space (even if that means temporarily removing some plywood decking in the process -- no big deal); so since you don't NEED to run conduit (or use surface-mount boxes), I would simply run NM-B wherever needed within the ceiling, and use all surface-mount fixtures (such as the ones discussed in that earlier thread).

BTW... Contrary to my earlier presumption, you MIGHT not even need to mount additional junction boxes in the ceiling, as long as you can make all of the required electrical connectins WITHIN the bodies of those surface-mount fixtures.

I also wanted to install 2 more lights (NEW) to give me more uniform light.

I would install far more than that.

If you're going to go to the trouble of doing this project at all, you might as well do it RIGHT the first time. So first things first: Scrap (or maybe "re-purpose" -- do you perhaps have a basement crawl space which could use some lighting?) those chain-hung "shop lights", in favor of some proper surface mount wrap fixtures. If you don't happen to like the ones I suggested in the earlier thread, there are MANY other similar models available from a wide variety of vendors (including the ones "pattenp" mentioned); pick something you like, and go with it throughout.

Next, figure that each "front to back" run of lights should be comprised of at least three (four would be better) twin-tube F32T8 fixtures. As for exactly where to place these runs... It looks like you're REALLY tight on space between the overhead door and the side wall(s); so that makes things a bit trickier AND means that precise placement is even that much more critical. If you have at least 1-1/2 to 2 feet of clearance between the O/H door rail(s) and the wall(s), then I would suggest putting the left & right runs JUST BARELY (maybe six inches or so -- basically, whatever it takes to keep them at least 1 to 1-1/2 feet off the walls) outside those rails, so that they will still do a passable job of illuminating whatever you might have stored on those walls (including any cabinets, benches, etc. which might later "appear").

If even that is too tight, you might consider fabricating some L-shaped brackets from which to hang SOME of these fixtures (i.e., the ones which are closest to the door opening), so that those which would otherwise be blocked by the O/H door(s) could hang just below AND perhaps a foot or so INSIDE the door's "footprint". (This is a "less than ideal" solution, because it would also be lowering the light sources vis-a-vis mounting them flush to the ceiling; but that's still better than having them blocked entirely.)

The "middle" run (if you will) should probably be split into at least two separately switched sections, so that you don't have to burn lights that are being blocked by the door anyway. That said, I'd still install the full run of lights. You won't ALWAYS have the door open when working in there; so having the light available when it can do you some good is better than not having it available.

So I wanted to do 6 lights in the 2-car part and only 1 light in the 3rd car part.

I cannot tell for sure from your sketch and/or pics; but is there a wall separating the two-car area from the single-bay garage to the left? If not, then the run of lamps on the left-hand side of the two-car part will ALSO serve well to light up about half of the single-bay part; so put a matching run on the far (left) side of the single bay, and you're covered.

If there IS a wall there, then it all depends on the intended usage of that space. In some of your other pics, it looked like it is currently being used simply as a catch-all "drop zone", as opposed to parking a car or doing real work in there. As such, you really don't need all that much light. But I would still suggest AT LEAST two fixtures for that space, even it is will effectively be only "walk through" lighting. Put each one about in the middle of the front/back distance, and perhaps two feet or so off the side walls.

If, OTOH, you DO have some "more ambitious" plans for that space, then we'd need to know what those plans are to make a useful recommendantion.

I only do mechanical maintenance on my vehicles and the current 5 light setup is plenty of light,

That's debatable, at best.

Assuming seven twin-tube F32T8 fixtures (as shown in your "new" sketch), you're asking 39,200 lumens to cover approximately 600 ft.^2. That averages out to just 65 lumens/ft.^2. Now granted, given your suggested layout, that "average" is skewed significantly toward the two-bay portion of the garage (which will help in that area, at the expense of the single-bay area); but it's still not all that much light, as such things go. Even ignoring the single-bay part entirely and doing the calculation based on six fixtures in 400 ft.^2, you're still only up to about 84 lumens/ft.^2. I'd call that "adequate" for non-critical work, but still short of ideal.

but just wanted a little more.

That "a little more" might help some; but what you REALLY need is better light DISTRIBUTION.

So the lone light in the 3rd car part should be enough. (My workbench has its own 2ft T8 fluorescent light mounted on the backboard.

I'm guessing that's a very small workbench. Typically, you want the light fixture to be AT LEAST as long as the bench, unless you're using under-cabinet LEDs or similar.

Am I on the right track with using metal boxes/conduit for surface mounted electrical boxes? I'm having a difficult time trying to figure out how to go from the central recessed plastic electrical box to mount the surface metal box. Do I have to fully remove the recessed box before installing the metal surface box? Can I use that plastic surface mount electrical stuff or is that only for indoor use?

As noted above, I am NOT in favor of using the surface-mount boxes or conduit when it's not really necessary. And in your case, it is NOT necessary. So side-step this entire conundrum by using conventional in-wall/in-ceiling wiring methods, and be done with it.

I've read that I will need to use 14/2 THHN wiring. Does that mean I need to buy 3 separate colored wiring (black, white, bare copper) since they aren't in a single jacket? Or can I use Romex 14/2? If I need to use THHN wiring, do I just run the separate wires through the conduit and that's the way it works?

First, you do NOT want to put NM-B (a.k.a. "Romex") inside conduit, ever. Even if it is code-complaint (which I'm not sure it would be), it would be a mammoth PITA to pull.

Second, AWG 14 would be the DEAD MINIMUM wire gauge for this application. Depending on the loads involved, AWG 12 might well be a better bet. Further, if you DO use AWG 14, you would have to install a 15A circuit breaker to protect it. To use a 20A breaker would REQUIRE (at least) AWG 12.

And finally... Yes, when pulling separate unjacketed wires, each one MUST be properly color coded. So that means Black for the "Hot" and White for the "Neutral". Green is normally used to denote the EGC ("Equipment Grounding Conductor"); but bare copper is typically used in jacketed cables (such as NM-B). Whether or not bare copper would be OK when pulling separate runs through conduit, I'll leave to the Code Jockeys; but I would very probably use insulated green wire regardless. IF the conduit (and the boxes, and all the couplings, etc.) is both contiguous and conductive you MIGHT even be able to get away without a separate EGC; but I would definitely NOT recommend this, even if it is ostensibly "legal".

 

[scott750]

2ManyProjects, Thank you for all of your suggestions. I always appreciate your feedback!!

I had all of my answers carefully nestled inbetween each of your questions, but I went over the forum 10,000 character limit. So bear with me on the answers as they are written.

See in the pictures I have the garage open. That is blocking some of the rearward lights from lighting up the front or "rear" of my truck. So the pictures looks dimmer than what it really is. Are the reflector hanging shop lights at that much disadvantage compared to surface mounted lights? In the 2-car part the light is pretty good as it is. I just wanted something a little more.

That was a typo on my part. It is a 20a circuit with 12/2 NM-B wiring

It is not a dedicated circuit. That circuit powers the switched outlet in the garage ceiling, 2 bedrooms worth of outlets (not ceiling lights), & covered patio light(single 60 watt bulb). I've actually had all of these lights on at once and have never seen a circuit breaker pop.

I was just trying to explore a different option. I thought if I painted the conduit it would at least blend into the ceiling. The reason I thought of adding the the extra electrical boxes like my drawing was to move the lights further out into their ideal spots, not directly over each vehicle. I have 7 of these lights already, 5 are in use and 2 need to be installed. Instead of ripping down everything and basically starting over, I thought I could improve on what I already have and not spend as much money. If I installed surface mounted lights, units, I would have to buy everything all over again.

So I think I would have to cut that decking instead of simply lifting it up.

The picture doesn't do the light justice. It seems very bright as it is with only 5 lights.

Texas doesn't do basements, otherwise I was would have moved them there. Unfortunately I have a problem. I have champagne taste and beer budget. The lighting fixtures I like are $50/each. They have the nicer looking bronze endcaps. They look so much better than white $15 cheapy units. But that's my problem and I'll probably end up with the $15 ones cuz buying 7+ at $50 each is not going to happen.

I've got 11 1/2" inches from the top of the rails to the ceiling. With the garage in the open position, I have about 8" of clearance. On the side wall, I have just under 17" from the outer rail to the wall. Again, the pictures look very deceiving.

How would I wire up these hanging on the L-bracket? What kind of wire do I need? Armored?

This is where I would need to get an electrician involved. I wish I could work along side someone while pulling wires through the wall that's got batt insulation. I'm just worried I won't be able to accomplish this.I do have 2 60 watt light fixtures that came with the garage. You see one of them in the 2nd photo just behind the opener. So I use these when I just want to walk into the garage for something quick. Otherwise I had the hanging lights with pull-string switches so I've been switching some of them off when I didn't need all of the light. This helped me not having to get multiple switches installed. Now is when I wished I would have just ordered multiple switches and dedicated circuits when building the house.

There is the tiniest wall in the separation, but its only as big as that little deviation to the 3rd car garage. Its about 1.5' deep.

My intentions were to keep that area open for my workshop area like tools, workbench, cabinets, etc. It has become the drop zone, but I intend to clean it up. At the very least I want to have the center floor part cleared and everything moved up against the walls and if possible hanging off the ground. Of course the lawnmower will have to still be on the floor.

I guess at 84 lumens/ft^2, it seems like plenty of like for working on the cars. Its just on the sides of the cars is where it gets dim. And that stems from having the lights directly over the roofs. I think once I move them out further

So the light fixture on the workbench is 34 1/2" and the workbench is 48" wide.

Yes in-wall/ceiling is what I truly want. It just comes down to cost. I feel like I've wasted money on these hanging unit if I don't use them.

I came across this article showing how to install surface conduit which is what kinda started the idea for this project. Looking closer they do show that the ground wire only comes out of the wall and connects to the 1st receptacle box. The on boxes 2-4, you simply connect a small grounding wire to the back of each box. I guess being all metal they are in turn all grounded to each other then. And the white/black wires are the only ones feeding thru the conduit.

http://www.familyhandyman.com/elect...rface-mounted-wiring-and-conduit/step-by-step

 

[2ManyProjects]

2ManyProjects, Thank you for all of your suggestions. I always appreciate your feedback!!

I had all of my answers carefully nestled inbetween each of your questions, but I went over the forum 10,000 character limit. So bear with me on the answers as they are written.

When that happens to me, I simply break the post onto two, and post them immediately after each other. (Ha! It happened on this message. So rather than edit it down, I'll leave it as is to show how I handle that.)

See in the pictures I have the garage open. That is blocking some of the rearward lights from lighting up the front or "rear" of my truck. So the pictures looks dimmer than what it really is.

Yes, I noticed that. If anything, the "comparison" photos in your earlier post illustrate the "door blocking" problem better than is usually the case. But I wouldn't presume that it "looks dimmer" overall. Photos will NEVER show this the same way the human eye does, for all sorts of reasons we don't need to bog down on right now.

Are the reflector hanging shop lights at that much disadvantage compared to surface mounted lights?

With such low ceilings, AND a marginal number of fixtures to start with? You bet'cha.

In the 2-car part the light is pretty good as it is. I just wanted something a little more.

I may be overreaching here a bit; but I can't help but think that you are only as semi-satisfied with the current lighting as you are because you've never had the opportunity to see what that space could be like with REALLY effective lighting.

That was a typo on my part. It is a 20a circuit with 12/2 NM-B wiring

Fair enough, BUT...

It is not a dedicated circuit. That circuit powers the switched outlet in the garage ceiling, 2 bedrooms worth of outlets (not ceiling lights), & covered patio light(single 60 watt bulb).

This part is definitely a potential problem.

I've actually had all of these lights on at once and have never seen a circuit breaker pop.

Maybe so; but that still does not necessarily mean "all is well"; and by the time you add enough lights as would be ideal, it could very easily prove inadequate. Now consider outlets for power tools... You ARE going to have to run some new circuits, no question. Given that, the old saying "In for a Penny, in for a Pound" applies.

I was just trying to explore a different option. I thought if I painted the conduit it would at least blend into the ceiling.

Perhaps so; but it would still be "uglier" than having all the wiring completely hidden.

The reason I thought of adding the the extra electrical boxes like my drawing was to move the lights further out into their ideal spots, not directly over each vehicle.

Getting those lights further out to the sides is definitely a worthwhile goal. But you can do that just as well (if not better) using hard-wired surface-mount fixtures.

I have 7 of these lights already, 5 are in use and 2 need to be installed. Instead of ripping down everything and basically starting over, I thought I could improve on what I already have and not spend as much money. If I installed surface mounted lights, units, I would have to buy everything all over again.

Perhaps at least the two uninstalled ones are still returnable? But even if not, surely you could either find SOME other use for them (better task lighting over your workbench, for example?), or re-sell them on Craigslist, or donate them to your local Habitat For Humanity and take the tax deduction. The point is, they don't necessarily need to be a TOTAL waste; and even if you have to take a loss on them, that loss is not so great that you should hobble yourself forever with less-than-ideal fixtures.

So I think I would have to cut that decking instead of simply lifting it up.

Still not a major problem. First, I can't imagine you needing to make more than one or two cuts per sheet. And when you make your cuts, use a circular saw with the blade set to limit the cutting depth to JUST enough to go through the plywood; then carefully cut either perpendicular to the way the joists run, OR, right along a joist line, so that when you re-install it you have something to nail the edges into. Even if you "miss" slightly, you can fix that by nailing a 2x4 to the side of the joist, with the top flush with the top of the joist. Voila -- additional nailing surface.

The picture doesn't do the light justice. It seems very bright as it is with only 5 lights.

If you say so; but see above re: perceptions vs. experience.

Texas doesn't do basements, otherwise I was would have moved them there. Unfortunately I have a problem. I have champagne taste and beer budget.

I understand. I'm in something of the same boat. But over the years, I've also learned that if I cheap-out TOO much, I'm never happy in the long run. It's almost always well worth a little additional expense up front, to get something that I can really be satisfied with. And over the long haul, that is always cheaper than doing it twice (a lesson you're learning now, if I am not mistaken).

The lighting fixtures I like are $50/each. They have the nicer looking bronze endcaps. They look so much better than white $15 cheapy units. But that's my problem and I'll probably end up with the $15 ones cuz buying 7+ at $50 each is not going to happen.

So buy the $22 ones I've pointed to before, a can of Krylon, and some masking tape.

I've got 11 1/2" inches from the top of the rails to the ceiling. With the garage in the open position, I have about 8" of clearance. On the side wall, I have just under 17" from the outer rail to the wall. Again, the pictures look very deceiving.

That's actually about what I was guessing, save for the vertical clearance (which I couldn't really get a good handle on).

Depending on what (if anything) you plan to put on that right-hand side wall (which I'm guessing is probably in the "not much" category, due to the lack of space), flush-mounting the lights to the ceiling, 12 inches or so off the wall, will probably work out fairly well (or at least as well as can be expected, given the geometric limitations).

How would I wire up these hanging on the L-bracket? What kind of wire do I need? Armored?

That could work. Or, in this case ONLY, I might use conduit. But given what we now know about the dimensions & geometry, it's probably not worth the trouble to go the "L-bracket" route.

This is where I would need to get an electrician involved.

I presume that you are referring here to setting up the multi-bank switching.

I'm afraid that is something you really should count on, more-or-less regardless of the number or type of fixtures. Even presuming only three runs of three fixtures each in the main part of the garage, plus another 2-4 fixtures in the third bay, you're going to want AT LEAST three (probably four) separate switch loops (counting your "walk through" lighting). To try piggy-backing ALL the lighting on a single switch would be a huge mistake.

Bottom Line: This is another of those "bite the bullet and do it right, or regret it forever" situations.

I wish I could work along side someone while pulling wires through the wall that's got batt insulation. I'm just worried I won't be able to accomplish this.

Where exactly do you think you have insulation to contend with? The stuff in the ceiling is duck-soup-easy to temporarily set aside, once you've removed that plywood decking. And all the fixtures will be mounted on the ceiling; so the walls don't really get into the act, save for running the switch loops. And presuming you're putting the new switches adjacent to an existing one, there's a decent chance you can "encourage" your fish tape to follow the existing wire down to the area of the box (which you would be replacing with a larger one anyway) without actually having to remove the insulation there. Worst case, you carefully cut out a chunk of drywall (again, making sure your cuts line up with the support studs, and saving the cut-out chunk of drywall for re-use), temporarily remove the insulation batt, do your wiring, then put it all back together. A little spackle & paint (and a lot of sanding dust, which WILL get EVERYWHERE), and it will look good as new.

I do have 2 60 watt light fixtures that came with the garage. You see one of them in the 2nd photo just behind the opener. So I use these when I just want to walk into the garage for something quick.

And at least that switch loop can presumably be re-used for the new lighting installation.

Otherwise I had the hanging lights with pull-string switches so I've been switching some of them off when I didn't need all of the light. This helped me not having to get multiple switches installed. Now is when I wished I would have just ordered multiple switches and dedicated circuits when building the house.

We live and learn. But surely, you don't want to live with a bunch of pull-string switches indefinitely, right?


[The BBS software is nattering at me that the message is too long. So I'm breaking it here. Continued in next message...]

 

[2ManyProjects]

[...Continued from previous message.]

There is the tiniest wall in the separation, but its only as big as that little deviation to the 3rd car garage. Its about 1.5' deep.

So then I gather that, save for the offset due to the different lengths, there is effectively no wall between the two garage areas. Good. That means that the left-hand "run" of lights in the main section will also put quite a bit of light into the third bay. Put another run of lights on the far-left side of the third bay, and you're golden.

My intentions were to keep that area open for my workshop area like tools, workbench, cabinets, etc. It has become the drop zone, but I intend to clean it up.

BTDTGTTS.

Given how "tight" the rest of the garage apparently is, I suspect that this is the only place you could feasibly set up a workbench, tool storage, etc. (That's a Chevy Trailblazer I see in the pics, right? That's a "mid-size" SUV, at most; and it's downright CRAMMED into the space.) What I don't quite "get" is, that third bay is apparently even shorter; so howinhell did they expect anyone to park a reasonable-size vehicle in there?!?

I guess at 84 lumens/ft^2, it seems like plenty of like for working on the cars. Its just on the sides of the cars is where it gets dim. And that stems from having the lights directly over the roofs. I think once I move them out further

I think you "edited yourself" to the point of losing the point, here.

But if you mean that simply moving the existing lights will help... Sure, it would be an improvement. But only a marginal one. If you want to confirm this, just buy yourself some short extension cords and move the lights as they are, using the extension cords to make their existing plug-in power cords reach the sockets as need be. Yes, this is a crappy approach in the overall scheme of things; and I'm only really recommending it on an "experimental" basis. But OTOH, if you're not willing to do the whole job RIGHT, then there is precious little point in doing more than this. So it may turn out to be a workable "interim solution".

So the light fixture on the workbench is 34 1/2" and the workbench is 48" wide.

So there's a perfect place to use one of your "re-purposed" 48-inch shop lights.

Yes in-wall/ceiling is what I truly want. It just comes down to cost. I feel like I've wasted money on these hanging unit if I don't use them.

I understand the feeling; but that's faulty logic. That money is already spent. As mentioned above, you can PROBABLY get some of it back, one way or another. But even if not, that doesn't change the value of buying the RIGHT stuff now, and having the benefit of that "right stuff" forever more.

I came across this article showing how to install surface conduit which is what kinda started the idea for this project. Looking closer they do show that the ground wire only comes out of the wall and connects to the 1st receptacle box. The on boxes 2-4, you simply connect a small grounding wire to the back of each box. I guess being all metal they are in turn all grounded to each other then. And the white/black wires are the only ones feeding thru the conduit.

Like I said, if everything is conductive, that is a potentially "doable" method. But I still would NOT do it that way, for several reasons (not least of them being, you would be dependent on ALL of those conduit connections being perfectly made and dead tight, so as to maintain low-resistance conductivity throughout; on a DIY conduit job by someone without experience in that endeavor, that's probably not a prudent bet).

 

[scott750]

When that happens to me, I simply break the post onto two, and post them immediately after each other. (Ha! It happened on this message. So rather than edit it down, I'll leave it as is to show how I handle that.)

That's a really great idea!

I may be overreaching here a bit; but I can't help but think that you are only as semi-satisfied with the current lighting as you are because you've never had the opportunity to see what that space could be like with REALLY effective lighting.

Yes this is true, I would like it to be more light and uniform light throughout. It would be nice if I can walk into different buildings with a light meter and see how many footcandles they are putting out and decide if I need more or less light.

Maybe so; but that still does not necessarily mean "all is well"; and by the time you add enough lights as would be ideal, it could very easily prove inadequate. Now consider outlets for power tools... You ARE going to have to run some new circuits, no question. Given that, the old saying "In for a Penny, in for a Pound" applies.

So adding a single 20a dedicated circuit should be all I need? Then I'll run 3 switches off that and figure out how to break up the lighting. Like for example, switch 1 turns on a few lights, switch 2 turns on a few more and switch 3 turns on the rest? I'll play around with some ideas.

But I was thinking of keeping those 2 round fixtures in the ceiling that have the 60watt bulbs in them a slow light walking thru lighting. Then I have the switches for the fluorescent lighting.

Perhaps so; but it would still be "uglier" than having all the wiring completely hidden.

I agree. Wiring in the attic would be ideal.

Perhaps at least the two uninstalled ones are still returnable? But even if not, surely you could either find SOME other use for them (better task lighting over your workbench, for example?), or re-sell them on Craigslist, or donate them to your local Habitat For Humanity and take the tax deduction. The point is, they don't necessarily need to be a TOTAL waste; and even if you have to take a loss on them, that loss is not so great that you should hobble yourself forever with less-than-ideal fixtures.

I never think out craigslist for selling stuff. But that's another great idea.

Still not a major problem. First, I can't imagine you needing to make more than one or two cuts per sheet. And when you make your cuts, use a circular saw with the blade set to limit the cutting depth to JUST enough to go through the plywood; then carefully cut either perpendicular to the way the joists run, OR, right along a joist line, so that when you re-install it you have something to nail the edges into. Even if you "miss" slightly, you can fix that by nailing a 2x4 to the side of the joist, with the top flush with the top of the joist. Voila -- additional nailing surface.

I hate to keep repeating myself, but thats a really good idea. See this is why I like coming here to this site. I would never have thought of these tips. Hopefully I can rent a circular saw or I guess just buy one.

So buy the $22 ones I've pointed to before, a can of Krylon, and some masking tape.

LOL that's a good way to get what I want!

Depending on what (if anything) you plan to put on that right-hand side wall (which I'm guessing is probably in the "not much" category, due to the lack of space), flush-mounting the lights to the ceiling, 12 inches or so off the wall, will probably work out fairly well (or at least as well as can be expected, given the geometric limitations).

For now I only perceive having the ladders hung from the wall. I might add more hanging wall systems like the ladders for more items to hang on it, but still deciding what else I want their.

I presume that you are referring here to setting up the multi-bank switching.

I'm afraid that is something you really should count on, more-or-less regardless of the number or type of fixtures. Even presuming only three runs of three fixtures each in the main part of the garage, plus another 2-4 fixtures in the third bay, you're going to want AT LEAST three (probably four) separate switch loops (counting your "walk through" lighting). To try piggy-backing ALL the lighting on a single switch would be a huge mistake.

With me, I'm all paranoid in the planning stages. Once I physically get in there a lot of my anxiety goes away. I just do all the worrying now and do a lot of research before I start a project, so I don't have "too many" surprises. I know I won't think of everything, but at least I can try and plan for most situations.

Where exactly do you think you have insulation to contend with? The stuff in the ceiling is duck-soup-easy to temporarily set aside, once you've removed that plywood decking. And all the fixtures will be mounted on the ceiling; so the walls don't really get into the act, save for running the switch loops. And presuming you're putting the new switches adjacent to an existing one, there's a decent chance you can "encourage" your fish tape to follow the existing wire down to the area of the box (which you would be replacing with a larger one anyway) without actually having to remove the insulation there. Worst case, you carefully cut out a chunk of drywall (again, making sure your cuts line up with the support studs, and saving the cut-out chunk of drywall for re-use), temporarily remove the insulation batt, do your wiring, then put it all back together. A little spackle & paint (and a lot of sanding dust, which WILL get EVERYWHERE), and it will look good as new.

That front wall with the clock has the batt insulation. Also I would have to drill a hole in the top board above each column of studs (not sure what that top piece is called). So it's drilling the hole, running the wire down into the fuse box and running it over to that single switch. And looking at the inside of the fuse box, the builder used those plastic wire holders as each bundle of wires enters into it. Is that a code thing having the wire holders? I'm wondering if I run my own wires if I simply knock out a hole in the fuse box and string my wire into it?

The ceiling is the white fluffy blown insulation. I can move that aside then use a rake to move it back into place.

And at least that switch loop can presumably be re-used for the new lighting installation.

Again, I was planing to leave those lights on their switch as entry light when I just need to walk into the garage for something quick, not task lighting. Then I could wire the florescent lights for task lighting.

We live and learn. But surely, you don't want to live with a bunch of pull-string switches indefinitely, right?

Nope, but I still need to convince my wife to do this project. She's under the impression that what I have is enough. I just need to convince her better!

 

[scott750]

[...Continued from previous message.]

Given how "tight" the rest of the garage apparently is, I suspect that this is the only place you could feasibly set up a workbench, tool storage, etc. (That's a Chevy Trailblazer I see in the pics, right? That's a "mid-size" SUV, at most; and it's downright CRAMMED into the space.) What I don't quite "get" is, that third bay is apparently even shorter; so howinhell did they expect anyone to park a reasonable-size vehicle in there?!?

Again the picture is skewing the dimensions a little. The back of my trailblazer has probably 1-2 ft of room from the rear bumper to the garage door. I can walk behind it without any issue and I'm not a small guy.

But if you mean that simply moving the existing lights will help... Sure, it would be an improvement. But only a marginal one. If you want to confirm this, just buy yourself some short extension cords and move the lights as they are, using the extension cords to make their existing plug-in power cords reach the sockets as need be. Yes, this is a crappy approach in the overall scheme of things; and I'm only really recommending it on an "experimental" basis. But OTOH, if you're not willing to do the whole job RIGHT, then there is precious little point in doing more than this. So it may turn out to be a workable "interim solution".

If I move them out further to see how the light shines, whats the best way to hover them in their temporary locations on the ceiling? I don't want to drill new holes for the hangers just for a 5 min look and see.

So there's a perfect place to use one of your "re-purposed" 48-inch shop lights.

Haha yeah that would work, but if I string up enough lights in the the 3rd car part, I wouldn't need to hand a single one over the workbench since it has its own light? Or should I anyway? Although if I end up moving things around in the future I don't want this single light that would have no purpose if the bench moves.

I want the most uniform light without worrying too much about specific placements of any piece, sans possible future cabinets, etc. I get bored after a while and change things up to keep it fresh. So what is currently placed int he pictures will probably move around a little. Having uniform lighting throughout will alow me to make changes without restrictions.

I understand the feeling; but that's faulty logic. That money is already spent. As mentioned above, you can PROBABLY get some of it back, one way or another. But even if not, that doesn't change the value of buying the RIGHT stuff now, and having the benefit of that "right stuff" forever more.

I guess that's the cheapskate in me. Even though I've used the items, I want all of my money back. I hate wasting anything. I'm selfish.

Like I said, if everything is conductive, that is a potentially "doable" method. But I still would NOT do it that way, for several reasons (not least of them being, you would be dependent on ALL of those conduit connections being perfectly made and dead tight, so as to maintain low-resistance conductivity throughout; on a DIY conduit job by someone without experience in that endeavor, that's probably not a prudent bet).

Fair enough. I'd rather do it right the first and not worry about a fire or something that would jeopardize the house or my family. Like I said it was an idea that seemed logical to me, but hearing opinions/ideas about it from others made me think otherwise.

 

[2ManyProjects]

Yes this is true, I would like it to be more light and uniform light throughout. It would be nice if I can walk into different buildings with a light meter and see how many footcandles they are putting out and decide if I need more or less light.

In the meantime, there is a nice shot of a very well-lit shop which recently appeared in another thread here:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3497120&postcount=9

The person who originally posted this photo did not specify what the dimensions of his shop are; but I'd guess its only marginally larger than all three of your garage bays put together (tho' obviously, the ceiling is somewhat higher). Notably, he's using 88 4-foot tubes (presumably F32T8 types). Some may consider that a tad "over the top"; but there's no denying it works well for him (very "clean" even lighting; no dark corners; and notwithstanding a few reflections off glossy surfaces, no glaring bright spots). Compare that to your paltry ten tubes (14 if you follow your original "New" plan), and you'll see that you are in absolutely NO danger of approaching "overkill".

So adding a single 20a dedicated circuit should be all I need?

As long as you're going to be pulling new circuits anyway (and assuming you have sufficient spare breaker slots available in your distribution panel), I'd go with two 15A circuits for the lighting, and two 20A circuits for the 120V outlets.

Then I'll run 3 switches off that and figure out how to break up the lighting. Like for example, switch 1 turns on a few lights, switch 2 turns on a few more and switch 3 turns on the rest? I'll play around with some ideas.

Setting aside any "zoning" you might want to do, the arrangement I usually recommend is Switch Bank 1 having only a minimal number (probably 1-3 in your case) of fixtures, which becomes your "walk through" lighting; optionally, this can also be controlled by your Garage Door Opener(s). Switch Bank 2 controls roughly 1/3 to 1/2 of the remaining general lighting; and if exactly WHICH 1/3 to 1/2 is carefully chosen, then this, in combination with Switch Bank 1, will likely be adequate for "casual" work, or at least to brighten things up a bit on a dreary day when you're working with the doors open. Switch Bank 3 controls the remaining 1/2 to 2/3 of the general lighting, and gets used when you want maximum lighting for critical and/or finely detailed work.

But I was thinking of keeping those 2 round fixtures in the ceiling that have the 60watt bulbs in them a slow light walking thru lighting. Then I have the switches for the fluorescent lighting.

You could do that; but then those lights would not be contributing in any meaningful way to your general lighting.

With me, I'm all paranoid in the planning stages. Once I physically get in there a lot of my anxiety goes away. I just do all the worrying now and do a lot of research before I start a project, so I don't have "too many" surprises. I know I won't think of everything, but at least I can try and plan for most situations.

"Measure Twice; Cut Once."

That front wall with the clock has the batt insulation.

Now see, I would call that the "Back" wall. But to each his own.

Also I would have to drill a hole in the top board above each column of studs (not sure what that top piece is called).

"Plate".

So it's drilling the hole, running the wire down into the fuse box and running it over to that single switch.

Normally, you'll want to come UP form the breaker panel, then laterally over to the stud bay where the switch(es) will be located, and back down. Similarly, the run from the switch to the load goes UP the stud cavity from the switch, laterally to wherever the light fixture will be, then down again. Unless your walls are all "open" (i.e., no drywall installed), going sideways within a wall is not feasible, because of all the intervening studs.

And looking at the inside of the fuse box, the builder used those plastic wire holders as each bundle of wires enters into it. Is that a code thing having the wire holders?

Yes. (But I'm mildly surprised to see you describe them as plastic. Normally, they're metal; but maybe I've not seen the newest stuff.)

I'm wondering if I run my own wires if I simply knock out a hole in the fuse box and string my wire into it?

Sort of. But you DO need the wire clamp. It can probably be installed from inside the box; so probably no need to tear out drywall for this.

The ceiling is the white fluffy blown insulation. I can move that aside then use a rake to move it back into place.

UGH! That stuff is a major PITA -- very "itchy"; and without being contained in a batt, it gets EVERYWHERE. But you are correct that it can simply be brushed aside temporarily, then swept back into place when you're done.

Again, I was planing to leave those lights on their switch as entry light when I just need to walk into the garage for something quick, not task lighting. Then I could wire the florescent lights for task lighting.

Terminology 101: "Task" lighting is special-purpose lighting used to illuminate a specific (and usually smallish) work area, like a workbench, or a stationary power tool (drill press, lathe, table saw, bench grinder, etc.). The lights we have been talking about are your GENERAL lighting.

{re: existing lights}

If I move them out further to see how the light shines, whats the best way to hover them in their temporary locations on the ceiling? I don't want to drill new holes for the hangers just for a 5 min look and see.

I would suggest that if you do this, it should be for more than five minutes. And you WILL need to "properly" hang them even to "test" the layout. Use some "substantial" eye screws or eye-head lag bolts, such as

http://www.lowes.com/pd_446079-37672-321172_4294710927__?productId=4314083

(This particular example might be a LITTLE on the overkill side; but you get the point.) Make sure to fasten them into structural framing members (drywall alone will NOT support the load!). Then attach the fixtures' chains via S-hooks.

Don't worry about the holes. When you go to install your "real" light fixtures, a little spackling will take care of them in ten minutes.

I want the most uniform light without worrying too much about specific placements of any piece, sans possible future cabinets, etc. I get bored after a while and change things up to keep it fresh. So what is currently placed int he pictures will probably move around a little. Having uniform lighting throughout will alow me to make changes without restrictions.

You're making things harder on yourself than they need to be. What you say about "uniform lighting throughout" does apply to the general lighting. But when it comes to "what tool/bench/cabinet/etc. is where", and how best to light that, now we're back into task lighting -- a different discussion entirely. And besides, once you find a layout (for the "stuff" in your garage, as well as the lighting) that REALLY works well, you probably ought to stick with it indefinitely -- i.e., "If it ain't broke, don't 'fix' it.".

 

[scott750]

In the meantime, there is a nice shot of a very well-lit shop which recently appeared in another thread here:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3497120&postcount=9

I want that garage!! That's awesome! Does the orientation of the lights (pointing in x or y direction) matter or should I just figure out the way the ceiling joists are facing to make it easier during installation. The way my current lights are hanging are on the joists, the joist go from front to back.

The person who originally posted this photo did not specify what the dimensions of his shop are; but I'd guess its only marginally larger than all three of your garage bays put together (tho' obviously, the ceiling is somewhat higher). Notably, he's using 88 4-foot tubes (presumably F32T8 types). Some may consider that a tad "over the top"; but there's no denying it works well for him (very "clean" even lighting; no dark corners; and notwithstanding a few reflections off glossy surfaces, no glaring bright spots). Compare that to your paltry ten tubes (14 if you follow your original "New" plan), and you'll see that you are in absolutely NO danger of approaching "overkill".

I don't think its too much, especially if it lights evenly throughout. Although how many lumens/ft^2 do you estimate this to look like? I thought I saw on the forums here to have between 50-100 lumens/ft^2. Just curious is all.

As long as you're going to be pulling new circuits anyway (and assuming you have sufficient spare breaker slots available in your distribution panel), I'd go with two 15A circuits for the lighting, and two 20A circuits for the 120V outlets.

Why 15a circuits? Why not just do 1 20a? I would think the 10-12 lights i install will be no where close to the 80% rating for that circuit.

Setting aside any "zoning" you might want to do, the arrangement I usually recommend is Switch Bank 1 having only a minimal number (probably 1-3 in your case) of fixtures, which becomes your "walk through" lighting; optionally, this can also be controlled by your Garage Door Opener(s). Switch Bank 2 controls roughly 1/3 to 1/2 of the remaining general lighting; and if exactly WHICH 1/3 to 1/2 is carefully chosen, then this, in combination with Switch Bank 1, will likely be adequate for "casual" work, or at least to brighten things up a bit on a dreary day when you're working with the doors open. Switch Bank 3 controls the remaining 1/2 to 2/3 of the general lighting, and gets used when you want maximum lighting for critical and/or finely detailed work.



You could do that; but then those lights would not be contributing in any meaningful way to your general lighting.

Ok good points here on the zoning. I thought I would just leave those 2 little lights as my walk through lights. Then using the florescent lights in succession to gradually increase lighting. I guess it doesn't matter if I use those little lights, it just adds to how much work I have to do to cover them if removed. At this point I'll just leave them in knowing they won't do much lighting for me. I can always take them out if I want later.

"Plate".

That's it!

Normally, you'll want to come UP form the breaker panel, then laterally over to the stud bay where the switch(es) will be located, and back down. Similarly, the run from the switch to the load goes UP the stud cavity from the switch, laterally to wherever the light fixture will be, then down again. Unless your walls are all "open" (i.e., no drywall installed), going sideways within a wall is not feasible, because of all the intervening studs.

Ok that's exactly the way I pictured it in my head.

Yes. (But I'm mildly surprised to see you describe them as plastic. Normally, they're metal; but maybe I've not seen the newest stuff.)

They may have been metal I don't remember. I'll have to take a close look this weekend when I'm off work. I'll post a pic of them.

Sort of. But you DO need the wire clamp. It can probably be installed from inside the box; so probably no need to tear out drywall for this.

Do the wires also need to be stapled to a stud within a certain distance? Or just the wire clamp is enough?

UGH! That stuff is a major PITA -- very "itchy"; and without being contained in a batt, it gets EVERYWHERE. But you are correct that it can simply be brushed aside temporarily, then swept back into place when you're done.

The stuff doesn't seem too bad. Feels like cotton balls. All soft and fluffy. I had one of builders tell he likes this stuff compared to the colored stuff, as that is scratchy and terrible to work with. But I'd hate to disturb it, it looks all perfectly flat right now. Hopefully my raking technique will get it back to its original blown in look.

Terminology 101: "Task" lighting is special-purpose lighting used to illuminate a specific (and usually smallish) work area, like a workbench, or a stationary power tool (drill press, lathe, table saw, bench grinder, etc.). The lights we have been talking about are your GENERAL lighting.

Gotcha

I would suggest that if you do this, it should be for more than five minutes. And you WILL need to "properly" hang them even to "test" the layout. Use some "substantial" eye screws or eye-head lag bolts, such as

http://www.lowes.com/pd_446079-37672-321172_4294710927__?productId=4314083

(This particular example might be a LITTLE on the overkill side; but you get the point.) Make sure to fasten them into structural framing members (drywall alone will NOT support the load!). Then attach the fixtures' chains via S-hooks.

Don't worry about the holes. When you go to install your "real" light fixtures, a little spackling will take care of them in ten minutes.[/quote]

Those are close to what I'm using to hang my existing lights, although they are open on one side.

You're making things harder on yourself than they need to be. What you say about "uniform lighting throughout" does apply to the general lighting. But when it comes to "what tool/bench/cabinet/etc. is where", and how best to light that, now we're back into task lighting -- a different discussion entirely. And besides, once you find a layout (for the "stuff" in your garage, as well as the lighting) that REALLY works well, you probably ought to stick with it indefinitely -- i.e., "If it ain't broke, don't 'fix' it.".

Yeah you're right. I said before I like to get all my worrying out now, how bad it may be annoying. because once I get into the project I have usually gone over as many "what ifs" as I can think of to minimize any surprises.

 

[2ManyProjects]

I want that garage!! That's awesome!

I thought so.

Does the orientation of the lights (pointing in x or y direction) matter or should I just figure out the way the ceiling joists are facing to make it easier during installation.

Yes, it can matter. Think about the radiation pattern of a linear fluorescent tube. It's basically a cylinder, with the tube itself coincident with the axis of that cylinder. Virtually all of the light is radiated perpendicular to the tube/cylinder's axis, with comparatively little (virtually none, really) emanating inline with that axis.

The way my current lights are hanging are on the joists, the joist go from front to back.

There are always ways to deal with this, even if it means adding a few extra support members (1x3s laid flat on the ceiling can suffice, even if that's a bit crude).

I don't think its too much, especially if it lights evenly throughout. Although how many lumens/ft^2 do you estimate this to look like?

You'd have to ask the OP, since he didn't post dimensions. Taking a WILD guess... If that shop is 24x40, that's 960 ft.^2; 88 tubes at 2,800 lumens/tube is nominally 246,400 source lumens; 246,400 / 960 == 256.67 lumens/ft.^2. Yes, that's a LOT. He loses some to the higher ceiling, and some more for tube aging and the "stuff" (like that bike platform) which gets in the way; but still...

I thought I saw on the forums here to have between 50-100 lumens/ft^2. Just curious is all.

The commonly cited rule of thumb (but it is ONLY that) is 50 lumens/ft^2 minimum at working height for "casual" work and/or for youngish folks with really good eyes; and about 100 lumens/ft^2 for critical and/or fine detail work. But you can certainly go higher if you feel the need.

Why 15a circuits? Why not just do 1 20a? I would think the 10-12 lights i install will be no where close to the 80% rating for that circuit.

The suggestion for multiple circuits is not because of load. As you note, 10-12 twin-tube T8 fixtures would not come close to overloading a single 15A circuit. It's so that if/when one breaker trips (or must be shut down for maintenance), you're not left completely in the dark. And since 15A is more than adequate, there simply no need to go to 20A.

Do the wires also need to be stapled to a stud within a certain distance? Or just the wire clamp is enough?

At least in theory, they need to be stapled to the stud within a certain distance (7 inches, I think; but don't quote me) of leaving the box. But in the context of retrofitting an additional circuit in a box that is flush-mounted in a drywall-covered stud cavity, this is obviously problematic. It would all depend on your local codes, and especially on your local inspector; but I strongly suspect that in MOST such cases, they would not insist on you tearing out a wall just to drive a couple of staples.

 

[Ray916MN]

The example shop 2ManyProjects posted is mine.

It is 24x48x13.5 and the lighting was designed with the intent of getting about 100 lumens/ft2. The straight math that is typically used for calculating lumens/ft2 assumes that all light from a fluorescent tube gets to the floor without impediment. As tubes radiate light axially as much light is thrown upwards as is thrown downward and as much light is thrown to the sides as upwards and downwards. What the straight calculation ignores is the surface area of the walls and ceiling. Unless you've got mirrors for walls and ceiling, the straight calculation represents and absolute best case of flat surface lighting that can be achieved for a given tube output. As suggested by some lighting calculators, I doubled the result from the calculator to take in account losses to the ceiling and walls. Based on descriptions of what 100 lumens/ft2 looks like, my guess is my shop probably hits something like this level of lighting.

With respect to layout, my shop faces north so the interior of the shop is always effectively shadowed. My lighting layout was done to minimize the number of tubes covered when the garage doors are opened (each door covers about 8 tubes when open) and also to most effectively light the shelving and work benches in the back of the shop. With a ceiling height of 9' I would consider going to more rows of single tube fixtures to maximize the dispersion of light as opposed to fewer rows of double tube fixtures. As some of your vehicles are pretty tall relative to the ceiling height, I would consider layout your lighting front to back taking care to light directly over the space between cars or better yet to have a line of lights to each side of the aisle between cars. This will help ensure that when you are doing things like checking tire pressures that the tires are not in shadows. It will also help make sure you can see things on the floor of the car with the door open.

 

[scott750]

2ManyProjects / Ray916MN, thank you both very much for your suggestions. I have some great ideas to help me plan the lighting layout. Ray, I really like you garage setup. Wish I could have done this in my community! But the lot size would have not permitted it.

 

[Ray916MN]

.... Wish I could have done this in my community! But the lot size would have not permitted it.

Getting ready for a daytime high of 18F on Saturday. Wish I could have Austin weather in my backyard, but physics does not permit it.

Best of luck with your lighting project!

 

[compressornew]

Set the white tube lights in top of the wall in garage. Put tail light in front of garage main door.The front lights in normal mode you can use it like 30 to 50 watts.

[/IMG]

 

[scott750]

Sorry I don't understand what you're trying to say. Are those pictures your before and after of hanging the flush mount lights? Or are you using a combination of hanging and flush mount lights?