Sump pump backup

[lawfarm]

New home. Downspouts all extended far from foundation. Had 24 hours of hard rain, and sump pump is working dilligently. It’s was running every 5 min; now every 10-15. It’s a good unit (Zoeller), but there’s no battery backup. Thinking of installing a backup. Not interested in water powered.

I’m thinking of installing a combo unit (ac/dc) on a pedestal in the pit, so if the Zoeller went out, there’d be an ac backup. If the power went out, there’d be a battery backup. Any reason that’s a bad idea? Any brand recommendations? Watchdog is about $300;Zoeller is $700 (both for combo units).

 

[Hilltopmasonry]

Sounds like a solid plan to me, I am going to do the same thing as well, this way the back up or secondary one will be up higher than the primary one so if the primary one fails the back up will take over when the water level rises higher.


I am going to be putting an addition on my house but I will also be put in a water powered back up as a third and last resort for when I finish the basement



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[DJL1967]

Every spring my sump will go off Q10 minutes for about a month. I had a battery back up system but replaced it with a water powered back up. When our hydro goes out it could be a few hours before it is restored and I felt that the battery system would not keep up with the demand. Thankfully, I've only had to rely on the water powered system once when my sump pump failed.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Zoeller is a good brand, if you can afford their combo unit.

 

[yeldogt]

I have the old basement watchdog -- the only time I needed it was when the main pump failed. I think the $700 one comes with both pumps .. you already have the one ?

Just get the add-on for your pump.

Bought mine in case the power went out in a storm -- that's never happened. I never factored in a pump failing in a storm.

My plumber told me to by an extra pump -- replace in 8-10 years.

 

[Eslader]

Good plan. For cheap insurance add a water level alarm, just as Murphy's Law insurance.

 

[Firebrick43]

I have the old basement watchdog -- the only time I needed it was when the main pump failed. I think the $700 one comes with both pumps .. you already have the one ?

Just get the add-on for your pump.

Bought mine in case the power went out in a storm -- that's never happened when I need the pump ..... I never factored in a pump failing. My plumber told me to by an extra pump -- replace in 8-10 years.

+1.

Most of the time the pump failing (with the well built brands such as zoeller) is the float switch. Then it switches to battery backup and runs until the battery is dead.

You need an alarm and make sure you can actually hear it.

Also buy main pumps without the built in float switch and buy a piggyback float switch. When the switch fails you can plug in the pump directly at intervals until you get another switch or pump installed. Then Keep an extra switch and pump on hand.

 

[Lelandwelds]

It may not occur to most people but you are fortunate to have such problems. I live near the edge of an almost desert. I am a bit envious of such rainfall.

 

[GirchyGirchy]

Zoeller switches **** ***. Mine's died twice, so I use one of the in-line float switches that plugs in between the wall outlet and pump plug.

Our backup is a Basepump RB750 water-powered backup. We're on city water so I'm not too worried about having the water shut off in a storm or if the Zoeller craps out, and there's no battery to die. It's loud so we'll know quickly if it's on the backup.

 

[Stevedore]

If your basement is any sort of useable space, e.g., workshop, playroom, etc., I think a backup pump is a necessity.

We recently bought a house with a basement & sump pump (first for me), and since my woodworking shop & machines are down there, I'm putting in a backup pump.

The only time I've seen any water at all in the sump has been during snow melting; none at all with heavy rainfall. I recently bought a Liberty Sumpjet water powered backup pump & all of the necessary plumbing bits & pieces; just need to install it all. We have municipal water, with 55+ psi with 2 outside faucets & several indoor faucets running, so I think the water powered backup is a good choice for us.

I thought about a battery backup pump, but it's another maintenance item to worry about (charging, battery replacement, etc.) which I'm not very good at.

 

[jam022316]

I'm curious why you're against water powered? I'm looking into water powered and would love to know if there's reasons specifically you are against it.

 

[6768rogues]

My cellar got wet no matter how long the leaders for the gutters were. Finally I trenched in pipes to get the water over 50 feet away to a daylight opening and no more water in the cellar.
When we go away in the winter I turn off the water at the main in our house. If something happens and the house freezes, the only leaks will be from water in the pipes, no spraying until I get home. A water powered backup would be useless.

 

[lawfarm]

I'm curious why you're against water powered? I'm looking into water powered and would love to know if there's reasons specifically you are against it.

Well, one reason is that if I install it to code, I have to install an RPZ valve and have it inspected and certified every year. I'd prefer to not give my local building department a gold ticket into my house each year.

A second reason is because of the relative inefficiency of the water-powered systems. A "good" system uses 1 gallon of water for every 2 gallons pumped, with no head. My Zoeller is rated at 3600gph at the installed depth. In a heavy storm, it ran every 2 minutes for close to an hour. Figure 20 seconds every 2 minutes, that's 10 minutes of pumping/hour, or 600 gallons pumped, conservatively. With 10' of head on the pipe, the water systems I've seen are somewhere between 1:1 and 1:1.5. At 1:1, I'd be putting out 1,200 gallons of water/hour, and burning 600 gallons of 'fresh' water per hour. That gets pricey, quick. On a battery backup system, I should be good with the battery system (at that pumping rate), I'd be good for 24 hours on a single battery, and would be putting out 1/2 as much water. If I have a 24 hour power outage, I'll be firing up the generator, candidly.

A third reason is because...well...I've never been around one (honestly), and the thought of using water to pump water just seems odd. We used to do something similar on the fire department to draft water, but it just seems counterintuitive. Maybe I should research more.

 

[Lunker]

Well, one reason is that if I install it to code, I have to install an RPZ valve and have it inspected and certified every year. I'd prefer to not give my local building department a gold ticket into my house each year.

A second reason is because of the relative inefficiency of the water-powered systems. A "good" system uses 1 gallon of water for every 2 gallons pumped, with no head. My Zoeller is rated at 3600gph at the installed depth. In a heavy storm, it ran every 2 minutes for close to an hour. Figure 20 seconds every 2 minutes, that's 10 minutes of pumping/hour, or 600 gallons pumped, conservatively. With 10' of head on the pipe, the water systems I've seen are somewhere between 1:1 and 1:1.5. At 1:1, I'd be putting out 1,200 gallons of water/hour, and burning 600 gallons of 'fresh' water per hour. That gets pricey, quick. On a battery backup system, I should be good with the battery system (at that pumping rate), I'd be good for 24 hours on a single battery, and would be putting out 1/2 as much water. If I have a 24 hour power outage, I'll be firing up the generator, candidly.

A third reason is because...well...I've never been around one (honestly), and the thought of using water to pump water just seems odd. We used to do something similar on the fire department to draft water, but it just seems counterintuitive. Maybe I should research more.

Thats alot of water...Im up near Park Ridge and we had 4" of rain. My pump didn't go on 1x. You must be South or have a pretty deep basement over a high water table.

I'd go with the Zoeller. The Basement Watch Dog is junk in my opinion.

Definitely with that much water I'd go with 2 pumps and a battery back up.

 

[ford33]

I recommend the battery backup but you need to do a few other things as well.

1. Use separate pipes for the battery backup pump. Sometimes pipe freeze or clog and the battery pump will run but not pump water out.

2. If you live next to a lake or pond, route the second set of pipes away from the pond. My pumps outlets were on the same side of the house and when a very heavy rainfall occurred the lake level increased and submerged both pipes. These sumps pumps will not pump out water if the pipes are submerged.

3. Get a water alarm and test it when you check smoke detectors

4. Realize that backup batteries fail after 5 or so years. You need to check water levels and test the pumps when you check smoke detectors.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

I recommend the battery backup but you need to do a few other things as well.


4. Realize that backup batteries fail after 5 or so years. You need to check water levels and test the pumps when you check smoke detectors.

^^^THIS

I bought a standalone battery pack/AC Power supply to run mine off of. A few months back in a heavy rain the power was out and it was finally needed....and it wouldn't work. I had let it go too long and one of the batteries had failed (it was swelled up and leaking acid).

Fortunately I had bought a small 2000 W inverter generator a few weeks before this, and it was fairly easy to run an extension cord out of my basement to my deck where the generator was running.

So...I would recommend a battery backup AND a generator.

The other thing...those little generators are handy for lots of things.

Phil

 

[Firebrick43]

I'm curious why you're against water powered? I'm looking into water powered and would love to know if there's reasons specifically you are against it.

The biggest reason I am against them is I know of two of them that the casing broke (I imagine from work hardening/water hammer) and flooded the basement they were supposed to protect doing over 10k in damages on each.

They put more water in the basements than if the regular pump had failed and there was no backup

 

[engineer2]

Good idea to have a separate discharge line in case of freezes. You also need to make your line self-draining. A short line will self-drain pretty good. For longer lines, adding an air admittance valve at the point where it exits the building will allow the line to drain.

 

[CNGsaves]

Sounds like OP situation best served with a quality battery backup sump pump, along with it's own pipes.

I'm firm believer in Battery Tender, especially for infrequently used battery like a sump pump.

 

[Bretny]

I have a buddy who had a finished basement and lived on a hill. His sump pump would run every 15min in the spring from snow melting. He got a battery backup pump. It worked well but would only last 24hrs max. He spent $12k on making the whole system gravety drain. Dug a trench around his house and did perf pipe as well as hooking that sump pump up to a pipe layed in that drain. The pump nevet runs now and his basement is more dry.

 

[ford33]

I just noticed you were in northern IL. Perhaps in the Chicago area.

Check out a sump pump company named Trusty Warns. They are located in Wood Dale.

They make a special high powered sump pump and control system. I have had one installed in my home for the last 8 years. It is a system that's proven to be reliable. I have an annual inspection done which I recommend if you value your basement furnishings and documents.

It is a high quality and relatively high priced system using a stainless steel pump, electronic pump controller with digital gauges for battery voltage and capacity, built in alarms and a very simple float control system and it uses sealed gel style batteries. It is not all like a watch dog. But it is not a $500 battery backup system.

Google TrustyWarns. They don't have a website, which is strange. They did last year. A phone number is listed.

 

[Yamaguy]

We install about 5 of these a month ad have had no complaints.

https://www.google.com/search?q=way...&ved=0ahUKEwiCrpTQl_nWAhUq4YMKHUEqAxAQgTYI4gQ
It will self test every month and if you have A landline it will call and notify you with updates. Now Wayne has had some issues with that Genius switch in their 120v pumps (no longer available), but we have had great success with the backup systems.


Also look at the SumpPro inverter. https://www.altapower.com/ion-sumpr...MI8auf6pf51gIVAy5pCh3CmQ3REAQYGSABEgLywfD_BwE

This system uses your existing 120v pump. You can plug a second pump into it as well and either place the second pump on a brick so the float is higher in the secondary pump so they don't both kick on at once, or combine it with a smart controller that will alternate which pump runs so they wear evenly.

Like anything there are many levels of options with escalating price tags...

My sump pump runs often during rain storms and just after. Even though I get a great discount on things, my basement is not finished at the moment. The power runs under ground and we have not lost power at all even in the heaviest storms (micro burst, tornados, blizzards, and even a flood) in the 5 years I have lived here.

 

[Yamaguy]

I'm curious why you're against water powered? I'm looking into water powered and would love to know if there's reasons specifically you are against it.

I have had more than one customer that have had water powered backup pumps that could not keep up with the incoming water, even with 60 psi of city water pressure.

 

[siegsuwa]

I'm from the same region and am considering new backup options as well. I have drain tile around the perimeter of my basement that drains into my sump pit and my Zoeller pump was cycling every 30 seconds pumping out the huge amount of water. Many in my neighborhood had flooding but my basement was dry due to my setup.

However I don't really trust my watchdog 12V battery backup to keep water out of my newly finished basement so I'm going to get a second primary sump pump to backup the first primary.

I recommend running two 20A circuits to your sump area so that if you pop a breaker or trip a GFCI (many places skip the GFCI on sump pumps, but it is still technically required per code), the second pump on its own dedicated circuit will run. Imagine if your primary pump fails by stalling and pops your circuit breaker. Your nice second primary pump will be unpowered and the dinky 12V backup won't keep up with the kind of water we had last weekend. Something to think about.

 

[JRC3]

Basement Watchdog Special, here. That and a Sam's Club Duracell Marine Battery. https://www.samsclub.com/sams/durac...-size-29hm/prod3590216.ip?xid=plp:product:1:4

Best part is the Basement Watchdog water sensor screws right into the Durcell. And it's about $60 less than the BW battery.

 

[engineer2]

Check out a sump pump company named Trusty Warns. They are located in Wood Dale.

Wood Dale is Ground Zero for basement floods during rainstorms, LOL

 

[lawfarm]

I'm from the same region and am considering new backup options as well. I have drain tile around the perimeter of my basement that drains into my sump pit and my Zoeller pump was cycling every 30 seconds pumping out the huge amount of water. Many in my neighborhood had flooding but my basement was dry due to my setup.

However I don't really trust my watchdog 12V battery backup to keep water out of my newly finished basement so I'm going to get a second primary sump pump to backup the first primary.

I recommend running two 20A circuits to your sump area so that if you pop a breaker or trip a GFCI (many places skip the GFCI on sump pumps, but it is still technically required per code), the second pump on its own dedicated circuit will run. Imagine if your primary pump fails by stalling and pops your circuit breaker. Your nice second primary pump will be unpowered and the dinky 12V backup won't keep up with the kind of water we had last weekend. Something to think about.

On the GFCI front, it depends on what version of the code you're using. Prior to 2008, the NEC had an exemption for sump pumps that allowed a single (not duplex) plug without GFCI protection.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

+1.

Most of the time the pump failing (with the well built brands such as zoeller) is the float switch. Then it switches to battery backup and runs until the battery is dead.

You need an alarm and make sure you can actually hear it.

Also buy main pumps without the built in float switch and buy a piggyback float switch. When the switch fails you can plug in the pump directly at intervals until you get another switch or pump installed. Then Keep an extra switch and pump on hand.

^^^This.^^^ Very good plan.

Keep in mind, battery backups generally do not run very long and don't move anywhere near the same volume of water as the AC power primary unit does.

Tommy

 

[engineer2]

Since we are discussing sump pumps, I was annoyed by the loud "thump" the water column against the check valve made after the pump stopped. I put a Tee, elbow, 12" of pipe and a cap in the line and made an air chamber as one would do with indoor plumbing. Problem solved.

 

[CKS1955]

Since we are discussing sump pumps, I was annoyed by the loud "thump" the water column against the check valve made after the pump stopped. I put a Tee, elbow, 12" of pipe and a cap in the line and made an air chamber as one would do with indoor plumbing. Problem solved.

I drilled a small hole in the pipe near the sump to prevent this issue.

Jay

 

[engineer2]

I drilled a small hole in the pipe near the sump to prevent this issue.

The bleed hole is to prevent air locking the pump. I have one too. An air chamber is needed to stop water hammer.

 

[JRC3]

The bleed hole is to prevent air locking the pump.

Yep, otherwise it might just run and run and not lift actual water.

 

[themiller]

None of the wimpy backup units will actually perform as you need them in a big storm. They might buy you 5 minutes tops but that's if the inflow is slow enough that they can keep up. They will not flow nearly as much water as your Zoeller. It's like having a Geo Metro as a backup car in case your 13 passenger bus breaks down on a cross country road trip. I heard the power go off, heard the 12v big box special pump alarm go off, ran downstairs just in time to watch the pit overflow. That's when I knew I needed the same size or larger pump as backup.

I setup another pump, inverter, charger, and 3 deep cycle batteries and would suggest you do the same if you're serious. Or just buy the Sumpro system if you want a 1 click solution.

BTW - Zoeller switches will fail with that much usage. Mine lasted 2 years tops. I switched to Liberty and was much happier overall, plus they use less startup currrent from inverter leading to longer run times from battery.

Here's my old thread/setup: https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=262268&highlight=pump

It was still running perfectly when I sold the house earlier this summer. 0 headaches since installed.

 

[n20junkie]

If your pump runs that often. How long do you think the battery will last for?


1 hour, maybe 2 tops.



The water powered pumps are not perfect, but they will run for as long as you have city water pressure.

 

[themiller]

Since we are discussing sump pumps, I was annoyed by the loud "thump" the water column against the check valve made after the pump stopped. I put a Tee, elbow, 12" of pipe and a cap in the line and made an air chamber as one would do with indoor plumbing. Problem solved.

For anyone that doesn't want to do the above... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00JFF205Y/?tag=atomicindus08-20

You will not hear anything but your pump.

 

[engineer2]

None of the wimpy backup units will actually perform as you need them in a big storm.

I totally agree and am fearful of an extended power outage with lots of rain. My Basement Watchdog claims 28 GPM at 10 ft, but the pump sounds like a model car motor. I plan to test it someday.

The Basement Watchdog seems to overcharge the battery so I have to refill it every month.

I actually built a control box for a secondary pump to provide battery charging, digital voltage readout, and automatic transfer to the inverter during an outage, but the inverter's built in GFCI didn't like my modifications and would trip out.

I called a sump pump manufacturer to make sure their pump would run OK on the inverter's pseudo-sine wave. The non-answer I got was "You can't do that because it's never been done before." I shelved the project for now.

BTW, don't buy an Ace-in-the-Hole backup system. It's junk.