Supplying the world with cheap tools

[d.mcfarland]

Manufacturing can only be supported in the USA by having people who need or have the means to purchase the products. Right now the mindset is buy cheap so you can have more. Way back when it was buy quality and it will last forever. Until foreign goods have a tariff on them the USA won't see job come back that quick. Simple currency economics.

 

[kctyphoon]

Manufacturing can only be supported in the USA by having people who need or have the means to purchase the products. Right now the mindset is buy cheap so you can have more. Way back when it was buy quality and it will last forever. Until foreign goods have a tariff on them the USA won't see job come back that quick. Simple currency economics.

Also, way back when - companies took pride in producing a quality product and living up to what they promised. Today, companies are more concerned with how to get your money and increase sales. They think nothing "bare minimum".. I wonder how the big tobacco executives from 60 years would look at the ones from today a d view the products they sell

 

[BDT/NWMN]

They call it "competition" and pretty sure HF did not develop the concept.

Maybe people are smart enough to realize that if they buy a set of Chinese made wrenched for $17.50, instead of paying $35 a set for Chinese made wrenches, they are saving 50%.

Yep; smart enough to know the difference between $17.50 and $35..
But still tool illiterate.. Do they actually expect a quality set of wrenches for that price?

 

[Tonellin]

Yep; smart enough to know the difference between $17.50 and $35..
But still tool illiterate.. Do they actually expect a quality set of wrenches for that price?

They understand they can buy a tool that will provide 95% of the function for 50%-of the cost

 

[speed bump]

The irony of people posting on high tech Chinese made devices about the horror of how bad low tech Chinese manufactured goods are is awesome.

Foundries, coal mines, and large scale power plants aren't something that most of the whinners want in their back yard so those industries went to where they were wanted.

 

[kctyphoon]

Yep; smart enough to know the difference between $17.50 and $35..
But still tool illiterate.. Do they actually expect a quality set of wrenches for that price?

I got my 10 piece set of Dewalt reversible ratcheting wrenches for $39, and the 10 piece set of long handled Dewalt combo wrenches for $19 I think.. Snap on quality - no.. But I challenge you to find better for that price..

Are they the strongest wrenches ever made? No.. But they remove every bolt I put to them, just like my gearwrench stuff, and my craftsman, and my husky, and my HF, and my westward, and my task force even.. If they always work for what I need them to do, what is the sense of upgrading to a premium, top of the line pro tool that likely came out of the same factories anyway if they were made overseas? Buying tools that are complete overkill for most people is not something I consider a good investment..

When you see a "jewelry box" that has every single socket known to man, in every drive size, 6 point, 12 point, shallow , intermediate, deep, and then all those over again in universal joint sockets, pass through, then all that over agin in impact sets, the complete collection of every channellock plier ever made in every single size ever sold - how much actual use do you think ALL those things see?? Maybe a dozen or so sockets are used hard every day, and 3 different types of pliers see constant use.. Maybe another half dozen sockets and wrenches see occasional use, Where is the "necessity" in buying ALL of those as a top tier tool? (Not that channellock is top tier). If the idea is that the tools are suppose to be an investment - what are you "investing" in?? They way to make as much money from your tools as possible, or an airloom to hand down to kids that likely won't care about them??

Most guys don't have that - but that's only cause they simply couldn't afford to do all that n snap on anyway.. But you could do it pretty easy if you went tekton or gearwrench for all the overkill, and just bought a 6 point set of shallow and deep s/o for your core tools.. The ones that insist it be all snap on , wind up with an $90,000 tool collection that will find its way onto eBay and take months or years to find someone that will even cough up $25, 000 in cash for a bunch of 30 year old tools.. Good investment??? I dunno..

 

[unslow1]

They understand they can buy a tool that will provide 95% of the function for 50%-of the cost

I completely agree. Craftsman tools have probably turned more bolts than all other brands combined in the US. That is also why when someone asks to borrow a tool they aren't getting handed a Mac wrench by me. Kobalt or Craftsman will do that job just fine. I don't loan out my more expensive tools.

 

[mjoekingz28]

As long as the tools stays out of the garbage heap and is kept in good shape, then the tool lives on. Dont lose it or let it rust away andmyou got something. Maybe you arent using it much, but a tool basically pays for itself after one use. Now, whether you want to suffer when using a cheap tool and possibly do shoddy work is another item on the agenda. If your kids sell them to a good guy and keep them out of the pawn shop after we die is ok too. Because we dont look for immediate gratification.







So basically, dont lose it where nobody can find it.
Dont break it where it goes to the scrap heap
Dont let it rust or ruin.
Hopefully SAE and metric stay around and we dont get a new standard.




Luckily we have a worldwide flea market/garage sale where we can inherit our tools to one another instead of bothering the manufacturer to make another one when there are so many going unused.

 

[Al Bundy]

Buying tools that are complete overkill for most people is not something I consider a good investment..

It's not an investment, investments offer a return on your money. But there's nothing wrong with buying something that will retain some of it's value as opposed to a cheaper version that doesn't.

As far as the actual use, a Snap On or truck brand wrench has a far better chance of removing that rusty bolt that's been sitting for 30 or 40 years. Odds are the Husky or Pittsburgh will just round it off.

 

[kctyphoon]

It's not an investment, investments offer a return on your money. But there's nothing wrong with buying something that will retain some of it's value as opposed to a cheaper version that doesn't.

As far as the actual use, a Snap On or truck brand wrench has a far better chance of removing that rusty bolt that's been sitting for 30 or 40 years. Odds are the Husky or Pittsburgh will just round it off.

Cheaper tools retain more of their value then truck brands. Everyone is free to purchase what they like, but Ive never come across a bolt or nut the tools I own wouldn't remove.. for what someone like me wilk encounter, if something is so completely rusted, the bolt will likely break way before the wrench ever would on small fasteners. Anything larger, some heat and some patience has solved most problems I've come across..

At work, I remove hardware that can literally be 100 years old that's been out in the weather it's entire life, by the beach even and exposed to the salty air. The cheap HF sockets and composite ratchets have never failed me. We even tried to break a ratchet one day and it took putting a pipe over the handle while the drive was in a vice. Everyone was amazed at a $7 ratchet.. things like that are kind of consumable tools for us. Sooner or later they will get lost or stolen.. nobody is digging through poison ivy or sifting through mud to find a dropped tool. At $7 if it last 2 or 3 years before that happens, how could you ever complain? Not to mention they are very well made and smooth turning tools to begin with. The sockets have never broke for me either.

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[sberry]

This is the real truth of the matter, cheap tools today are better than they were 30 yrs ago.

 

[sberry]

But there's nothing wrong with buying something that will retain some of it's value as opposed to a cheaper version that doesn't.

You would be correct that there is nothing wrong with buying nice things but it doesn't hold its value, exactly the opposite.
Sure 20 years later it will have some and a guy can feel better about spending 50 to get 20 back 30 years from now but if a 5$ tool works how much would be lost in the same time frame?
Even if it had no value how much is lost?

 

[sberry]

They understand they can buy a tool that will provide 95% of the function for 50%-of the cost

Cman isn't even that much, its about 5% of the cost.

 

[M6erfan]

This is the real truth of the matter, cheap tools today are better than they were 30 yrs ago.

^^^truth^^^

 

[TMcCay]

For the most part I agree with the cheap tool part. Though lately I have changed my mind on the Snap On argument and have started acquiring some.
The backstory is I work on motorcycles some on the side. A friend from work and his dad broke their bikes in for tire changes and checkouts before a big road trip. The friends bike went with no problem. I got his dads bike on the lift and the pinch nuts on the front axle weren't in the best condition.
These are 10mm nuts IIRC and my Craftsman sockets (older set I have had since new 30 years ago) would not get a sufficient grip on them. I had to go with my impact sockets to get them loose. Come to find out the dad thought that they were not tight enough and tightened them some more. These were only suppose to have like 20ft-lbs on them.
Lesson learned was for my own stuff my old Craftsman works fine. But when working on other peoples stuff I will use my newly acquired Snap On b/c of the better fit of the sockets. I did have to use my impact to loosen the above bolts also. I thought I was going to strip my ratchet. The son couldn't believe his dad had done that!

 

[WhiskeyRanger]

I wouldnt make that claim. Generally pay in manufacturing facilities goes up as seniority does. I remember during the auto industry collapsed seeing an article about some of the most senior plant assemblers who got offered early retirement were making upwards of $100/hr.

No one was making that in an hourly wage. Most places and virtually all unon shops have a base rate that applies to everyone who has reached a certain seniority for their job classification. It may take several years to reach it, but the guy with 10 years makes the same as the guy with 20 or 30 or 50. Things are different now, it takes longer to reach full rate, and its lower than the guys who hired in 20 years ago, but that is based on new contracts and not seniority.

 

[stikman56]

You would be correct that there is nothing wrong with buying nice things but it doesn't hold its value, exactly the opposite.
Sure 20 years later it will have some and a guy can feel better about spending 50 to get 20 back 30 years from now but if a 5$ tool works how much would be lost in the same time frame?
Even if it had no value how much is lost?

This is correct. The numbers don't lie. My US General tool box for $800.00 is only going to lose $800.00 if I turn it into a planter in the back yard, if I sell it some day, it'll lose $500.00 maybe. How much did a truck tool box lose after it was bought new and then sold later? Simple economics. That $6000.00 box just lost a couple thousand at least, most likely more. Tools are not an investment, they are to get work done. For my money it's what will work without hassle, what will hold up day after day, I want just enough, not looking for excess. Nothing wrong at all with spending more if that's what you like. I've found only a handful of fails so far, the biggest ones being HF locking pliers and snap ring pliers, but even the locking pliers stay in the box, sometimes they will just grip something and move it that the Irwin vise grips will not. Their jaws are soft and kind of grippy, so even that poorly made tool has a use for me.

 

[WhiskeyRanger]

I buy and use mostly upper tier tools at work. A Combination of Klein, Proto, SO, Wiha, Wera,and Wright. I have the same at home, but mostly old Craftsman. Over the years I've bought quite a few HF tools for use at home. Initially, my rule was to only buy tools I wouldn't normally buy. If it was something I would normally borrow, or find a work around, I would buy HF if it was cheap enough and seemed suited for the task. That's kind of how I view most tool purchases. I will not buy a set of SO ratcheting wrenches. I have never been in a situation where I could not do the job without one, and I will not pay $450 for that convenience. However, for $50 a set of Gearwrench ratcheting wrenches is totally acceptable. Snap On didn't lose a sale, I would never have bought those wrenches. There was no money being moved from an American manufacturer to a foreign one. That money would probably have gone to an overseas distiller or brewer anyway!

As for the financial aspect, even if my kid throws them out when I die we will have come out ahead. PayPal and eBay fees alone would make it a was even if the used SO sold for full retail! Its like a warped glass is half full/glass is half empty. SO tools are still worth $300 instead of $10. Yeah, but you lost $200 instead of $40.

 

[-Brent-]

There's a place in between both sides of thinking that works well. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. It shouldn't be.

Certain higher-end tools perform better in my experience. This has proven true for my torque wrenches, drills, circular saw, and even carpentry hammers then there are absolute winners at a MUCH lower price point. There's gimmicks, junk and equal performing tools on both ends too. The trick is avoiding the junk and getting the best out of both ends.

That's where the Garage Journal has really helped me (the HF thread is a great example). I won't buy certain cheap-o consumables like reciprocating saw blades. I can get the life out of a middle to high end blade that I can get out of a half dozen cheapies. But, like was said above, a $1 wench that continues to perform out in the field will always make more money. Even replaced yearly - in comparison to the $30 one.

For me, there will always be some items I will pay a little more for. But, I wouldn't judge a guy for using a lesser expensive tool if he does the job well. A tool that prevents someone from doing the job right is usually between the ears.

 

[Al Bundy]

This is correct. The numbers don't lie. My US General tool box for $800.00 is only going to lose $800.00 if I turn it into a planter in the back yard, if I sell it some day, it'll lose $500.00 maybe. How much did a truck tool box lose after it was bought new and then sold later? Simple economics. That $6000.00 box just lost a couple thousand at least, most likely more. Tools are not an investment, they are to get work done. For my money it's what will work without hassle, what will hold up day after day, I want just enough, not looking for excess. Nothing wrong at all with spending more if that's what you like. I've found only a handful of fails so far, the biggest ones being HF locking pliers and snap ring pliers, but even the locking pliers stay in the box, sometimes they will just grip something and move it that the Irwin vise grips will not. Their jaws are soft and kind of grippy, so even that poorly made tool has a use for me.

True numbers don't lie. Losing $500 out of $800 is 62.5% of your money. $2000 out of $6000 is 33.3%.

 

[BDT/NWMN]

I got my 10 piece set of Dewalt reversible ratcheting wrenches for $39, and the 10 piece set of long handled Dewalt combo wrenches for $19 I think.. Snap on quality - no.. But I challenge you to find better for that price..

Are they the strongest wrenches ever made? No.. But they remove every bolt I put to them, just like my gearwrench stuff, and my craftsman, and my husky, and my HF, and my westward, and my task force even.. If they always work for what I need them to do, what is the sense of upgrading to a premium, top of the line pro tool that likely came out of the same factories anyway if they were made overseas? Buying tools that are complete overkill for most people is not something I consider a good investment..

When you see a "jewelry box" that has every single socket known to man, in every drive size, 6 point, 12 point, shallow , intermediate, deep, and then all those over again in universal joint sockets, pass through, then all that over agin in impact sets, the complete collection of every channellock plier ever made in every single size ever sold - how much actual use do you think ALL those things see?? Maybe a dozen or so sockets are used hard every day, and 3 different types of pliers see constant use.. Maybe another half dozen sockets and wrenches see occasional use, Where is the "necessity" in buying ALL of those as a top tier tool? (Not that channellock is top tier). If the idea is that the tools are suppose to be an investment - what are you "investing" in?? They way to make as much money from your tools as possible, or an airloom to hand down to kids that likely won't care about them??

Most guys don't have that - but that's only cause they simply couldn't afford to do all that n snap on anyway.. But you could do it pretty easy if you went tekton or gearwrench for all the overkill, and just bought a 6 point set of shallow and deep s/o for your core tools.. The ones that insist it be all snap on , wind up with an $90,000 tool collection that will find its way onto eBay and take months or years to find someone that will even cough up $25, 000 in cash for a bunch of 30 year old tools.. Good investment??? I dunno..

You have what I term "Realistic Expectations" and select Your tool purchases to match Your tasks. You cost justify these purchases...

Most of the time, I do the same thing,, but,, I often pull wrenches 45-70 hours a week. Some of My m o s t used tools are SnapOn, ProTo, SK, and other higher end tools. Yes, they cost more, but they get used far more, perform well and have lasted for years doing so..

I bought lots of lower cost tools when I could not cost justify My favored three... But I maintain realistic expectations.. Most hold up just fine.

The ones that don't hold up end up in a junk box.. It may be of interest that some of the most hated tools in that junk box are SnapOn and ProTo. A bunch of later USA Craftsman ratchets, and HF end wrenches, along other disappointments make for quite a collection.. It was My mistake to buy this stuff...After all, How could I possibly blame the tool companies?

 

[zendriver]

Yep; smart enough to know the difference between $17.50 and $35..

But still tool illiterate.. Do they actually expect a quality set of wrenches for that price?

I can read pretty good and I own a few sets of the harbor freight ratchet wrenches, for a few years now.

They seem to work like wrenches.

Is there something else I am missing?



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[BDT/NWMN]

I can read pretty good and I own a few sets of the harbor freight ratchet wrenches, for a few years now.

They seem to work like wrenches.

Is there something else I am missing?



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If the HF stuff fits Your needs, and You are satisfied; Good Enough.
Did You purchase them because they were the cheapest sets You could find?
If they were the cheapest, then Your tool needs were covered for the lowest possible cost.. If so, You are a winner..

 

[WhiskeyRanger]

True numbers don't lie. Losing $500 out of $800 is 62.5% of your money. $2000 out of $6000 is 33.3%.

When you go to buy something, is the price in dollars or percent?

You and I both have $6000 in the bank, you buy an SO toolbox, I buy a HF toolbox. We sell them X amount of time later. You sell yours for 62.5% of the purchase price, I sell mine for 33.3% of the purchase price, who has more money in the end?

 

[zendriver]

If the HF stuff fits Your needs, and You are satisfied; Good Enough.

Did You purchase them because they were the cheapest sets You could find?

If they were the cheapest, then Your tool needs were covered for the lowest possible cost.. If so, You are a winner..

There may have been some cheaper somewhere else, but why should I care?

I purchased them because I have quite a few other harbor freight tools, that perform just as good as the other craftsman Thorson and snap on tools I already have.

If a tool gets the job done time after time, what other "needs" to do I need to meet?

For me it's not ego, because I know I can take that saved money and buy something else with it or invest it for my kids inheritance, which gently stocks and Real estateget a much better return than auctioning off a box full of once expensive tools


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[kctyphoon]

Converting lost or gained money into percentage points is just a way to disguise true numbers .. You can't really compare them unless you are talking about the same initial investment. If I said I lost 50% of my tool investment, over the course of two weeks, you would say I made a horrible choice. If I said I recovered 50% of my tool expense after I was done with a repair and no longer needed the tools, then it could sound like I did good. When I reveal I bought a wrench for $2 and sold it for a $1 two weeks later after I was done using it, none of it is very impressive or depressive. If you turn around and say "yea I got 50% back on my tool after using it for one job" and then go on to say it was a $15,000 bobcat - well you get it..

I buy used hydraulic tools off ebay sometimes to help outfit my truck at work. Hydraulic tools are the most expensive, strongest, longest lasting tools you can buy. So far, I've gotten a used Greenlee 7/16 hex drive impact wrench SHIPPED for $16.. A Greenlee hydraulic long reach tree trimming chainsaw for $100. A Fairmont 16" hydraulic chainsaw for $115, and a Stanley hydraulic jackhammer for $275..

Expensive used tools are only worth what people are willing to pay, and nobody is going to pay top dollar for a bunch of beat up OLD tools, regardless of who made them, and what they cost when they were new. You can always find listings online of guys trying to sell a lifetime collection of professional mechanics tools. Could you honestly see yourself dropping 10, 15, 20, GRAND on a toolbox full of 30 year old tools that have been beat to hell their entire life and look horrible, just because they say "snap on" somewhere? Of course not.. It's exactly why I can buy a $2400 jackhammer for about 10% of what somebody paid for it new, and pay $16 for an impact that probably cost over a grand when it was new. Very good investment on my part, not so much of a return on investment for them.

A big part of the value in top tier tools is the esthetics. That's why people drop 10 grand on new tool boxes, and ***** about when their $500 wrench set had a rust spot on one of them. Very few people will say "I don't care what it looks like" - and actually mean it when buying something as expensive as snap on. If it didn't matter then the boxes would come covered in rhino liner so they would take real abuse, instead of people buying custom covers to keep the friggin dust off them on their one day off.

 

[dsimatt]

When you go to buy something, is the price in dollars or percent?

You and I both have $6000 in the bank, you buy an SO toolbox, I buy a HF toolbox. We sell them X amount of time later. You sell yours for 62.5% of the purchase price, I sell mine for 33.3% of the purchase price, who has more money in the end?

Who cares about resale when buying tools because you should be buying the best you can afford to last you forever or at least until you no longer need them.

I bought my snap on box because I got a great deal on it but also because when you go into shops and see all these older tools boxes still going strong after 20+ years of use and the majority of those were snap on. The box I would buy if I just was needing one for home would be a use snap on if I could find a great deal or a nice HF one because I know it won't see any where the abuse my work one does.