Surfactant Leaching

[Bigblue&Goldie]

I was just in my 5yo daughters room fixing her closet door when I looked up and noticed a bunch of streaking on her wall. The streaking is a yellow/brown, and is only on that one wall. I wiped it with a wet towel, but it appears to have almost etched the paint. We had the same streaking in our master bathroom (other side of the house), but I always figured it was from my wife’s steaming hot showers and soap/shampoo residue. Going back a little, we had our house painted about 3 years ago using high end Dunn Edwards paint by a family friend (professional painter).

After doing some Google searches, it appears this streaking is known as "Surfactant Leaching", and is chemicals from the paint leaching out due to humidity or poor product. Let's get it out of the way, "surfactant leaching" sounds like what happens after a trip to the New Delhi Buffet. Anyway, it's odd that this happened as we live in Phoenix and her room isn't anywhere close to moisture. To make it more strange, is this is an interior wall, not a perimiter wall, and there are rooms on either side. There's no sign of any kind of roof leak or condensation. The only thing I can think of is the paint was put on thick and it took a long time to dry with essentially no ventilation in the room.

Any ideas or input here?

(The picture was taken with flash, so it appears more obvious than in person)

 

[LeeG]

Do you by chance have a moisture meter for checking the moisture level in wood? It might at least rule out an in-wall pipe leak.

Lee

 

[kaymccampbell]

Live n learn. I've seen that before and didn't know what it was. I sanded the wall, painted on lacquer primer, then repainted with a different brand.

 

[yatg]

Is that closest ceiling sloped up towards the streaked wall?
Picture perspective sort of makes it look that way.
If so, maybe moisture collects up there.

Maybe the kid leaves wet bathing suits in the closet?

 

[strutaeng]

Is this flat or low luster sheen paint by any chance? I think I remember reading about that, but like you mentioned, on showers and baths with flat paints.

 

[DennisK59]

Surfactants are ueually a modified vegtible oil added to herbicide/pesticide sprays, if added to paint I would think that would be for uniformed coverage.

 

[Bigblue&Goldie]

Do you by chance have a moisture meter for checking the moisture level in wood? It might at least rule out an in-wall pipe leak.

Lee

Hey Lee. No, I don't. There's no water line above or in that wall. The other side is my other daughter's bedroom and that paint looks fine.

Is that closest ceiling sloped up towards the streaked wall?
Picture perspective sort of makes it look that way.
If so, maybe moisture collects up there.

Maybe the kid leaves wet bathing suits in the closet?

No, when looking at the wall the left side the ceiling is probably 12' tall and it slopes down to probably 8'. In other words, the ceiling doesn't slope down into that wall. We're so dry here, I can't imagine any moisture of any kind accumulating.

My daughters are far too lazy to actually put clothes in their closets!

Is this flat or low luster sheen paint by any chance? I think I remember reading about that, but like you mentioned, on showers and baths with flat paints.

No, it's a semi-gloss Dunn Edwards. Paint was chosen and done by a true professional. My uncle is a contractor and this has been his go-to painter for residential and commercial work for many years.



Kinda bizarre overall. I'm not sure why this one wall did this? Maybe an important detail is the one HVAC register in the room is on that wall, so it doesn't get the airflow of the other 3 walls. Not a huge room (maybe 12'x12'), but a fairly tall sloped ceiling. As mentioned, our master bathroom has similar streaking in places, but that's more reasonable as that's where we all shower. I've also read that previous streaks will work through new paint, so it's possible all of this was there and we never noticed it. I've had the house about 7 years, painted it 3ish years ago.

 

[The Cobbler]

I was wondering if it may have been under the new paint &not noticed before you painted. Latex doesn't do all that well on sealing compared to old oil base stuff.

 

[Boon]

I had the same thing in our master bath when we moved into this house. I cleaned the walls with TSP (trisodium phosphate). It's a cleaner. I then painted the walls. I have no idea what caused it. I thought it might ahve been nicotine but the people tghat lived here before us didn't smoke. We gutted that bathroom down about a year later so I don't know if it would have solved the problem long term but it seemed to have done the trick for that year. Good luck.

 

[FredWanaker]

moisture from showers will do that. Is there a chance you have a bee hive in the walls? If so that area could be killer bees so be careful.

 

[wolfhawk73]

We have that everywhere in our master bathroom. I knew it was something leaching from the paint but didn't know what it was. I couldn't wash it off, and it obviously wasn't mold. Now I'll just call it the New Delhi Buffet.

As for the bedroom, I think you might be on to something with the paint not drying quickly enough. When I shut off a room to paint it, the humidity goes through the roof when I close it off to keep the smell and moisture out of the rest of the house.

I might have missed this detail, but is that the wall adjacent to the closet? If closet doors stay closed, moisture can accumulate, as water vapor creeps in from the ceiling, the floor, clothing, and other rooms and isn't able to readily escape. Maybe it's moving slowly out of the closet through that wall and affecting the paint from the back side. I've reminded my family to keep closet doors cracked or open for ventilation, especially if that closet has an exterior wall. Welcome to eastern NC, where humidity is a living entity all its own.

 

[manwithtools]

I think I would have your painter come take a look at it, he may have experienced this before and if it's product related he may have some pull with the paint provider.

 

[Hank11]

Look at this:

Surfactant Leaching: Solutions & Tips | Dunn-Edwards Paints

Surfactant leaching causes spots on latex paints. Read about potential causes, as well as the best solutions to fix surfactant leaching.

www.dunnedwards.com

I think if you wash it off it will be gone and done.

 

[BrandonV]

I have that happening somewhere around the house... now I know there is a name for it!

 

[Mister68]

Had the same issue when our bathroom was painted with Benjamin Moore Aura paint. Apparently our painter has the same issue with a number of customers using the same paint. A recoat with a different paint brand resolved the problem.

 

[T45]

Thanks OP. Good thread topic/discussion.

I too have seent this kind of stuff before, but never fully understood what was going on.

 

[Jayman17]

Like the article said, just hose down your closet wall with a strong stream of water.

 

[rancherbill]

Dunn Edwards paint

I would say it is the paint. The stain looks like the mark of water running down as you wash the wall prior to painting. The paint is letting the stuff bleed through.

For example, if you get smoke / damage paint it seals very quickly to prevent the paint smell from leaching through. You paint does not appear to have any sealer in it.

 

[BroncoAZ]

Look at this:

Surfactant Leaching: Solutions & Tips | Dunn-Edwards Paints

Surfactant leaching causes spots on latex paints. Read about potential causes, as well as the best solutions to fix surfactant leaching.

www.dunnedwards.com

I think if you wash it off it will be gone and done.

I had similar issues with the paint in my old house in Phoenix. I could scrub it off with a damp microfiber towel, but it always came back in a few months. We lived there for 11 years and never painted a wall.

 

[Firebrick43]

I have seen this in paints with biocides for mildew and mold added in.

 

[Stelzer]

As a Moderator on PaintTalk, I get asked about this at least weekly. From the pic it certainly looks like surfactant leaching. The leaching can occur for several reasons. Darker colors, especially those tinted with glycol colorants, are much more prone to leaching over time, but often begin to surface within weeks of application. Since it's an interior wall and there's no signs of leaks, the application process could've made this more prone to future leaching if it were painted in quick succession and/or too thick, not allowing the surfactants in the paint to evaporate out like they normally do, thereby manifesting themselves back onto the surface of the paint film. Surfactants typically flash off with the solvents during the evaporation process, so cold weather, high humidity, painting multiple coats in quick succession, and/or applying the paint too thick could be the initial cause.

The leaching of surfactants is often shiny or amber in color and can usually be removed with damp microfiber towels. In rare cases, it can cause some degree of film degradation, usually softening the finish. The quality of paint used is almost never a factor, provided it was applied to spec and without being diluted more than what the data sheets deem acceptable. I've heard of plenty of cases where painters used exterior paint on interior surfaces which ultimately resulted in leaching though. If you have a can of the touch-up paint, it might be worth checking to rule that out. I'd also get a moisture meter and probe a few spots on that wall for readings just to confirm there aren't any nasty surprises lurking behind the drywall.

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that room got quite humid during the painting process, as painting can increase the RH of a room drastically. Maybe the walls have since have been wiped down by someone in your house, but only as high as they could reach, and the residual surfactants not wiped away are rearing their ugly head for one reason or another. It's impossible to prove exactly why it happens though.

 

[Bigblue&Goldie]

moisture from showers will do that. Is there a chance you have a bee hive in the walls? If so that area could be killer bees so be careful.

It's funny you mention this as it was my first thought! I actually had a shower remodeled at my last house and the guy rerouted a copper pipe from the outside and left a ~1/2" hole in the stucco (I wasn't aware of this). I was taking a shower one day and heard a lot of buzzing......

We have that everywhere in our master bathroom. I knew it was something leaching from the paint but didn't know what it was. I couldn't wash it off, and it obviously wasn't mold. Now I'll just call it the New Delhi Buffet.

As for the bedroom, I think you might be on to something with the paint not drying quickly enough. When I shut off a room to paint it, the humidity goes through the roof when I close it off to keep the smell and moisture out of the rest of the house.

I might have missed this detail, but is that the wall adjacent to the closet? If closet doors stay closed, moisture can accumulate, as water vapor creeps in from the ceiling, the floor, clothing, and other rooms and isn't able to readily escape. Maybe it's moving slowly out of the closet through that wall and affecting the paint from the back side. I've reminded my family to keep closet doors cracked or open for ventilation, especially if that closet has an exterior wall. Welcome to eastern NC, where humidity is a living entity all its own.

The closet is on this wall, and one side of the closet is connected to the exterior wall. We never put wet clothes in closets.and swimsuits are always dried in our master bathroom tub. The room is mirrored on the other side of the wall in my other daughter's room with no issues.

I think I would have your painter come take a look at it, he may have experienced this before and if it's product related he may have some pull with the paint provider.

Yeah, I might give him a call. I noticed it before heading out of town, so we're going to make a good effort at cleaning it up based on what people have been advising. Worst case scenario, we're remodeling our kitchen and bathrooms next year, so I'll have him redo that stuff while he's at it.

 

[Bigblue&Goldie]

As a Moderator on PaintTalk, I get asked about this at least weekly. From the pic it certainly looks like surfactant leaching. The leaching can occur for several reasons. Darker colors, especially those tinted with glycol colorants, are much more prone to leaching over time, but often begin to surface within weeks of application. Since it's an interior wall and there's no signs of leaks, the application process could've made this more prone to future leaching if it were painted in quick succession and/or too thick, not allowing the surfactants in the paint to evaporate out like they normally do, thereby manifesting themselves back onto the surface of the paint film. Surfactants typically flash off with the solvents during the evaporation process, so cold weather, high humidity, painting multiple coats in quick succession, and/or applying the paint too thick could be the initial cause.

The leaching of surfactants is often shiny or amber in color and can usually be removed with damp microfiber towels. In rare cases, it can cause some degree of film degradation, usually softening the finish. The quality of paint used is almost never a factor, provided it was applied to spec and without being diluted more than what the data sheets deem acceptable. I've heard of plenty of cases where painters used exterior paint on interior surfaces which ultimately resulted in leaching though. If you have a can of the touch-up paint, it might be worth checking to rule that out. I'd also get a moisture meter and probe a few spots on that wall for readings just to confirm there aren't any nasty surprises lurking behind the drywall.

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that room got quite humid during the painting process, as painting can increase the RH of a room drastically. Maybe the walls have since have been wiped down by someone in your house, but only as high as they could reach, and the residual surfactants not wiped away are rearing their ugly head for one reason or another. It's impossible to prove exactly why it happens though.

I think I'm with you. I remember it being crazy humid in the house when painting (not the weather). I also seem to remember that room being the last one painted, so maybe the guys went to town on it. Interior paint was definitely used as we do have cans/buckets for all of it. They didn't water it down. Oddly enough, when I was in high school I worked for a friend's family painting business in the warehouse. They used to paint like 12-20 track houses a day. Guys would fill 55gal trash cans full of paint, add a **** load of water and spray away. I've been super conscious of that ever since.