Suspension guys step inside please.

[TT_Vert]

I had to put wifeys car on the lift to fix an oil cooler leak and noticed the inside of the FL tire was showing cords. We just got new tires put on late 2019 at firestone and had the alignment done since we have a lifetime alignment. She hasn't put many miles on the car and the tread on all tires (with the exception of the problem child inside where it's to the belts) was at 75% of the 12/32" they come with. I always get my tires at tire rack and have been for 25+ years. DOT on the tires was late 2019 so it was a newer production tires when installed. Tires were sumitomo touring LS V tires. I've used sumitomo in the past and I have them on my vette now (For many years) w/o any issues. The car is an 05 RX 330 and it has a cam bolt to adjust camber. I assumed the nut for that bolt worked its way lose and introduced a ton of negative camber. Now I wasn't there for any of this but, my wife is a trained observer so she is very thorough with these sort of things. They told her this "My 25 year tech says that it's due to cheap chinese tires". When she told me this I about blew a gasket. If it was due to a material issue "Cheap chinese tire BS" A. all tires would be wearing at a similar rate (Or at least the front two would if not rotating) and B. They would be wearing evenly If the alignment was correct. She showed me the before and after and sure enough front camber was within spec which is very confusing to me. Caster and toe were good too. I know it's not the tire itself that caused this but based on their before specs it wasn't the alignment. Aside from excessive negative camber I cannot see any other way to wear the inside of a tire. Anyone have any input on this? I've got years of suspension/chassis tuning from back when I used to race so I know my way around the geometry, etc. so this really bothers me on many fronts. I'm curious what you guys think and if I should perhaps address this with them. I know nobody likes to be told by a rando how they need to do their job but this one just rubs me the wrong way. I'm good w/ paying for the tire but them blaming the tire........

Dave

 

[BillK]

See if you can find a good local tire store that is not part of a chain. I am fortunate in having a couple of good customers that I can trust. They have been in business for 40 years and have guys that know how to look at things other than the green and red bars on the alignment readout.

 

[TT_Vert]

See if you can find a good local tire store that is not part of a chain. I am fortunate in having a couple of good customers that I can trust. They have been in business for 40 years and have guys that know how to look at things other than the green and red bars on the alignment readout.

Yeah I'm not happy about that but in reality it's hard to mess up an alignment if you can mount the reflectors properly and follow directions on a screen. I'm scratching my head on how it was possible for this FL tire not to have a ton of negative camber.

 

[39CAMC]

A lifetime of **** alignments is only $169.....

And an RX 330 has front camber adjustment?
Anyway, I would look closely at the lower control arm bushings, specifically the large ones on the back side of the control arm. I can't remember if those are oil filled on that year, but regardless those tend to go bad and allow the arm to move dynamically and cause oddball wear issues.

DaveW

 

[ToolPolisher]

I'd look for a worn suspension or steering component that would affect suspension alignment while driving. All fine and good via the machine when stationary but a worn tie rod or compliance bushing could introduce toe while driving. If she's become "used to it" then it may not have ever registered there was a problem. Your racing background should tell you that toe kills way more tires than camber.

The proof is in the pudding, so to say, that there is a problem.

 

[CJM8515]

i have quoted the reason this occurred

got new tires put on late 2019 at firestone and had the alignment done since we have a lifetime alignment.

 

[TT_Vert]

A lifetime of **** alignments is only $169.....

And an RX 330 has front camber adjustment?
Anyway, I would look closely at the lower control arm bushings, specifically the large ones on the back side of the control arm. I can't remember if those are oil filled on that year, but regardless those tend to go bad and allow the arm to move dynamically and cause oddball wear issues.

DaveW

Yes, one strut bolt uses a Cam bolt has an eccentric that you turn to adjust camber.

I'd look for a worn suspension or steering component that would affect suspension alignment while driving. All fine and good via the machine when stationary but a worn tie rod or compliance bushing could introduce toe while driving. If she's become "used to it" then it may not have ever registered there was a problem. Your racing background should tell you that toe kills way more tires than camber.

The proof is in the pudding, so to say, that there is a problem.

ball joints, upper strut mounts, all control arm bushings, tie rods, etc. are in great shape. To the extent this was it would have to be all of the time. The suspension is still loaded while it's on the rack and the odds it would be within spec right when they put it on the rack given how bad the tire is wearing is VERY slim. Not saying it's not possible but not likely. This is negative camber wear, not toe. Toe was also w/in spec btw. I would have to believe given it was on the rack for an alignment they would check over the suspension components before aligning it to try to sell her something. I hope they would not be so daft to mount the new tire, do an alignment and see the damage to the other tire w/o checking suspension components.


Dave

 

[ToolPolisher]

If they are a tire/alignment shop instead of a mechanical shop I would not put it past them.

Again, the suspension being loaded on the alignment rack doesn't mean it won't move when dynamic loads are applied.

As stated by another, the rearward lower control arm bushings (compliance bushings) could be an issue. I doubt those could/would be identified for dynamic movement on a static alignment rack.

But these are all guesses at this point since you're the only one that can see the car currently.

 

[TT_Vert]

If they are a tire/alignment shop instead of a mechanical shop I would not put it past them.

Again, the suspension being loaded on the alignment rack doesn't mean it won't move when dynamic loads are applied.

As stated by another, the rearward lower control arm bushings (compliance bushings) could be an issue. I doubt those could/would be identified for dynamic movement on a static alignment rack.

But these are all guesses at this point since you're the only one that can see the car currently.

Good point on the rearm front lower control arm bushing. I had checked these all recently but I'll look again.

 

[Citation]

I would also think about where the car is driven. On one of my cars I noticed that the front left tire was wearing far faster than the rest. Then I realized that most of my turns on the way to work were to the right and I like to turn hard into those turns. I turns out the nut behind the wheel was loose.

 

[CraigStu]

I'd like to see the print-out.

 

[39CAMC]

Does the camber look different on the side that is wearing? It would have to have 2-3 degrees plus to cause wear and that should be visible to the naked eye.

I personally wouldn't trust a single thing from a lifetime alignment. I would guess that the alignment tech gets paid in some sort of commission arrangement and only the guy the does the first one gets paid. The rest get screwed. So they have all kinds of incentive to bump the targets around to make it read "right"
But once again, enough camber to cause that kind of wear would be obvious to the naked eye.

DaveW

 

[TT_Vert]

Does the camber look different on the side that is wearing? It would have to have 2-3 degrees plus to cause wear and that should be visible to the naked eye.

I personally wouldn't trust a single thing from a lifetime alignment. I would guess that the alignment tech gets paid in some sort of commission arrangement and only the guy the does the first one gets paid. The rest get screwed. So they have all kinds of incentive to bump the targets around to make it read "right"
But once again, enough camber to cause that kind of wear would be obvious to the naked eye.

DaveW

I'll have to check but their alignment machine said it's currently in spec so I have to assume I wouldn't be able to see that now anyway. This is a firestone so it's not some mom and pop place, not that it matters. The computer really can't lie and you cannot manipulate the figures without messing and putting another measurement out of spec really.

Dave

 

[Wrench97]

I'll have to check but their alignment machine said it's currently in spec so I have to assume I wouldn't be able to see that now anyway. This is a firestone so it's not some mom and pop place, not that it matters. The computer really can't lie and you cannot manipulate the figures without messing and putting another measurement out of spec really.

Dave

Want to bet?

 

[39CAMC]

I mean just look at the front of the car from 10 feet away and see if one is cambered in more than the other. To cause wear, you are talking at least 3 degrees which should be pretty easy to see.

The tire clamp sensors can move around on the wheels much more than you would think, especially when the rubber rings get a little older. It is kind of annoying when you are adjusting something underneath and all the sudden the readings change. I replace my rings every year and am super **** about mounting them tightly but they still can slip.

Based on what I have seen when that happens, a lazy tech could easily move them around to suit their needs.
And it has been a while since I have been in the volume end of service/alignments, but based on some of **** I fix that was done at other shops, there is no shortage of lazy techs. Especially if they got their commission on the $169 lifetime 2 years ago and don't see a dime on the follow up alignments.

DaveW

 

[gorilla]

Why are you so sure that it's not just a bad tire?

 

[39CAMC]

I have never seen a tire fail in this manner. Slipped belts? Yes, but huge vibration followed by delamination. Holes lose air quickly.
Summitomo are not Michelin, but they aren't bad. And even if the cheapest maypop chinese no names have issues, it is on an axle pair or all 4.

DaveW

 

[scofo]

Did it pull to the right before?

Does it now?

 

[ybnormal]

I would also think about where the car is driven. On one of my cars I noticed that the front left tire was wearing far faster than the rest. Then I realized that most of my turns on the way to work were to the right and I like to turn hard into those turns. I turns out the nut behind the wheel was loose.

unless you're driving in a big circle like a UPS driver, that also means most of the turns on the way home are to the right so it should balance out

 

[TT_Vert]

I'd like to see the print-out.

ask and yee shall receive. Camber was w/in spec on both sides. In fact everything was w/in spec. although they should have worked to get that FL camber closer to the FR.

Why are you so sure that it's not just a bad tire?

I've never seen a bad tie exhibit the exact same symptom of excessive negative camber.

 

[ybnormal]

I'll have to check but their alignment machine said it's currently in spec so I have to assume I wouldn't be able to see that now anyway. This is a firestone so it's not some mom and pop place, not that it matters. The computer really can't lie and you cannot manipulate the figures without messing and putting another measurement out of spec really.

Dave

I know my local Firestone shops and the techs there since I deliver parts to them. What I have found is how good each shop is is what determines whether they fix the issue. in my case, shop#1 is my goto. because of the neighborhood they are in with the cars the customers have ($$$$$$), AND the manager knows his stuff, I get great work out of them when I need it. The other shop , #2, not so much. case in point, I had an alignment done on my daughters FWD car at #1, no prob. replaced shocks and struts plus 2 tires 6 months later, needs re-alignment. took it to #2 cause they were closer, had to take it back 3 times within 2 days. the last time they got the bright idea of switching tires....finally! even so, I've seen the quality of the work being done. definitely sticking with #1.

hell, I took the wife's car to the Hyundai dealer last week cause it's pulling hard right and a recall needs to be performed. also tell them to inspect shocks/struts since it is 60k miles. get it back, "nothing wrong with struts sir, alignment is done", drive 100 yards down the street....like hell it is! still pulling hard right! called and left a message "either your tech is a liar or incompetent because it OBVIOUSLY wasn't done". went back and chewed some *** and demanded a refund from the Service Desk Manager. told them I'm taking it elsewhere because obviously their techs can't be trusted to do the job right.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Why are you so sure that it's not just a bad tire?

I've seen that before, random burnt edges, just bald as can be.

ask and yee shall receive. Camber was w/in spec on both sides. In fact everything was w/in spec. although they should have worked to get that FL camber closer to the FR.

I've never seen a bad tie exhibit the exact same symptom of excessive negative camber.

If it has a cam bolt, fix the LF camber. Your wife is a delicate enough driver -1.0 isn't required. I have people with mcstrut cars burning off the outer edges so I'll set them with excess negative to combat it.

 

[TT_Vert]

I know my local Firestone shops and the techs there since I deliver parts to them. What I have found is how good each shop is is what determines whether they fix the issue. in my case, shop#1 is my goto. because of the neighborhood they are in with the cars the customers have ($$$$$$), AND the manager knows his stuff, I get great work out of them when I need it. The other shop , #2, not so much. case in point, I had an alignment done on my daughters FWD car at #1, no prob. replaced shocks and struts plus 2 tires 6 months later, needs re-alignment. took it to #2 cause they were closer, had to take it back 3 times within 2 days. the last time they got the bright idea of switching tires....finally! even so, I've seen the quality of the work being done. definitely sticking with #1.

hell, I took the wife's car to the Hyundai dealer last week cause it's pulling hard right and a recall needs to be performed. also tell them to inspect shocks/struts since it is 60k miles. get it back, "nothing wrong with struts sir, alignment is done", drive 100 yards down the street....like hell it is! still pulling hard right! called and left a message "either your tech is a liar or incompetent because it OBVIOUSLY wasn't done". went back and chewed some *** and demanded a refund from the Service Desk Manager. told them I'm taking it elsewhere because obviously their techs can't be trusted to do the job right.

Don't get me wrong I know there are not a lot of good techs. Many parts changers, but few good techs. ASE means nothing to me, experience does. I know ASE mechanics who are parts changers after 10+ years on the job and on the other side of the coin I I know some that just learned out of necessity and learned to diagnose the right way.

 

[TT_Vert]

I've seen that before, random burnt edges, just bald as can be.



If it has a cam bolt, fix the LF camber. Your wife is a delicate enough driver -1.0 isn't required. I have people with mcstrut cars burning off the outer edges so I'll set them with excess negative to combat it.

It's back from firestone and apparently w/in spec. Their setup is going to be a lot better than anything I can do in my garage. I'm going to keep an eye on the tire to see if i notice any uneven wear.

Dave

 

[TT_Vert]

I've seen that before, random burnt edges, just bald as can be.



If it has a cam bolt, fix the LF camber. Your wife is a delicate enough driver -1.0 isn't required. I have people with mcstrut cars burning off the outer edges so I'll set them with excess negative to combat it.

Curious how you would explain what occurred? You'd need friction to do this which means the inside of the tire OD would have to be larger than the rest of the tire (bulge) so it is the first point of contact rather than the middle of the tire. Is that what you saw? Perhaps a broken belt?

 

[ybnormal]

Don't get me wrong I know there are not a lot of good techs. Many parts changers, but few good techs. ASE means nothing to me, experience does. I know ASE mechanics who are parts changers after 10+ years on the job and on the other side of the coin I I know some that just learned out of necessity and learned to diagnose the right way.

you forgot the 3rd side of the coin....those who actually gave a sht to do the job right

 

[TT_Vert]

you forgot the 3rd side of the coin....those who actually gave a sht to do the job right

Someone could care but also not have the skillset to be a proper diagnostician.

 

[Citation]

unless you're driving in a big circle like a UPS driver, that also means most of the turns on the way home are to the right so it should balance out

My initial thought agreed with yours but when I actually thought through my drive it wasn't true, in fact it was far from true. For example, where I connected from one freeway to the other it was a 90* right turn in the morning and a 270* right turn in the evening. The turn off the surface street onto the freeway was a continuous flow situation where I could enjoy a sweeping right hand turn onto the ramp. The turn off the freeway in the other direction was traffic light thus I wasn't turning fast. I miss that commute as my current commute replaces fun sweepers with stop signs and pot holes...

 

[vwpieces]

Anyone remember those 10+ story parking decks with the counter clockwise spiral exit. That would wear the Inside FL if you parked at the top everyday. Outside RF too
I remember riding down those on BMX bikes as a kid. Elbowing they other guys and pressing each other against the wall going as fast as we possibly could. We all raced and were pretty fearless... having Fun. Shorts and T shirts of course.
Oh, and I forgot about the chain across at the bottom. Had to hop that and it came up fast and unexpectedly after the dizzy speed spiral. Did a lot of Fun (dumb) Shtuff as a kid.

 

[ybnormal]

Anyone remember those 10+ story parking decks with the counter clockwise spiral exit. That would wear the Inside FL if you parked at the top everyday. Outside RF too
I remember riding down those on BMX bikes as a kid. Elbowing they other guys and pressing each other against the wall going as fast as we possibly could. We all raced and were pretty fearless... having Fun. Shorts and T shirts of course.
Oh, and I forgot about the chain across at the bottom. Had to hop that and it came up fast and unexpectedly after the dizzy speed spiral. Did a lot of Fun (dumb) Shtuff as a kid.

we've got a parking deck for a state agency site that is two 5-story decks side by side with ground level entries as well as a ramp that goes straight up to the 4th floor and there are cross-connects between the two. never seen any other garage like it. can't believe the state contractors actually came up with that smart design

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Curious how you would explain what occurred? You'd need friction to do this which means the inside of the tire OD would have to be larger than the rest of the tire (bulge) so it is the first point of contact rather than the middle of the tire. Is that what you saw? Perhaps a broken belt?

Irregular rubber compound within the tire, belt/carcass shift, etx. Had a friend deal with something similar on his Bridgestone recently. Within a month or so, severe edge wear on one, and a slight pull began. Alignment in spec, and also acceptable to my eyes within the spec. Moved that tire to the rear axle, new tire in that position has not suffered the same fate and the pull is gone.

Seen it before, and I'll see it again. Can't tell you more than that.

 

[iagsxr]

I've had a couple 09-10 Ford Escapes for work cars. They are tire eaters. We've done what we can with alignment. Rotating the tires every oil change has helped the most.

So here's the thing, it's really not a static alignment issue. It's the camber change curve built into the suspension and how it travels through it loaded. I'm under the impression that there are many cars with similar issues built in either for handling or ride quality.

Didn't even know what an RX-330 was so I Googled it. Looks like it's a known issue with your car.

 

[ybnormal]

So here's the thing, it's really not a static alignment issue. It's the camber change curve built into the suspension and how it travels through it loaded. I'm under the impression that their are many cars with similar issues built in either for handling or ride quality.

now that you mention it, I recall looking at buying a Mazda 5 about 10-12yrs ago and coming across a mention of the same issue on the rear wheels. THEY had no fix for it but the forums were talking about getting a part used for a Ford Focus/Fusion/whatever for the same issue. so it very well could be this, dunno.

 

[CraigStu]

Well, the pic tells the story. Yeah, the numbers are green but that is because the specs allow a wide latitude. Much wider than I am comfortable with. I want camber and caster to be within 1/10 deg side to side. The LF was -.9 deg and is now -1.0 deg. And the front is toed out very slightly. Admittedly front or all wheel drive cars usually have a front toe spec like that. The theory is that since the front tires are pulling the car, rubber bushings + any slight wear on any component will cause the tires to move toward toe-IN when it is being driven. So starting w/ zero or slightly out will result in zero to slightly in while driving which is what we want. I retired in 2012 but the last 20 yrs I worked as a Lexus dealer tech. We saw this problem on the ES300s often. They speced -.7deg front camber. It wore the inside of the front tires. I am never sure why manufacturers do this on regular run of the mill street cars. It is unarguable fact that -camber wears the inside of a tire. Why would you want that on a street car? My answer - you don't. I have also been an avid autocrosser forever so I understand that - camber increases cornering ability. My previous cobra replica and my current 19 Stingray both run -3deg front camber. I know it will wear the fronts out faster but I am willing to put up with that. My wife drives a 15 Mustang GT. About 5 months ago I replaced her front brake pads and did a quick alignment check. I don't remember the #s now but I bought an eccentric camber bolt so I could fix excessive - camber at the front. Yep it is a mustang GT w/ a 6 speed and has the Performance Package, but although the car gets it's share of full throttle, overall she drives pretty tamely so I got the camber as close to zero as I could.
If the RX330 were my car, I'd fix the LF camber. Get it at least down to -.3deg to match the RF. I'd go to zero camber if I could get that on both fronts. I would also move the front toe to just slightly IN.

 

[iagsxr]

now that you mention it, I recall looking at buying a Mazda 5 about 10-12yrs ago and coming across a mention of the same issue on the rear wheels. THEY had no fix for it but the forums were talking about getting a part used for a Ford Focus/Fusion/whatever for the same issue. so it very well could be this, dunno.

My Escapes have gotten aftermarket adjustable rear upper control arms. The camber then gets set to the top positive side of spec. That pretty much fixes the rear. There's not much you can do with the front, hence constant tire rotation.