Swapping Guts on Homeline Panel

[Mr onetwo]

I am starting the electrical work on an addition that I started last year to my house.The existing panel is a 2009 125 amp main lug 20 space/20 circuit SqD Homeline panel. Their literature states that tandem breakers are NOT to be used in that panel.It is full up and I need space for a 2 pole 60 amp to feed a new subpanel in the addition and 2 spaces for a surgebreaker at the top. I am going to pick up a 125 amp 20/40 PON Homeline panel from Home Depot next week.The can for both the old and new panels is a number 8 and the dimensions, tech diagrams and part numbers are the same.I already have the new subpanel new from 2009.Is there any reason not to do this? Replacing the whole panel with a bigger one is not an option.

 

[Innovate1]

I am not sure about this and others will likely chime in. My only thought on this is that the breaker panel label/nameplate is usually on the inside of the can and after swapping the guts you will still have the old label which could be an issue.

 

[Mr onetwo]

nope ...labels are for individual parts. There is one on the side of the guts.There is a label just for the can on the can

 

[walta]

Seems to me when you remove parts from an approved assembly and install them in another panel you no loner have an approved assembly. I understand you disagree the truth is neither of our opinions really matter only the opinion of the inspector matters and if he will approve your work.

“Replacing the whole panel with a bigger one is not an option.”

Why is this true?

Sounds like a thought distortion, I suspect this limitation is more self-imposed than it is in reality.

Walta

 

[The Cobbler]

if you call the company and your inspector , my suspicion is the answer will be no
if you do it and don't mention it, would anyone ever notice?.
sort of a caveat emptor situation

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Technically you would be violating the listing of the panel.

 

[Mr onetwo]

My second panel is an HOM20M100C. It stands for a 100 amp 20space/ 20 circuit N1 main breaker load center with cover. The UL sticker with that number is not on the can...it is attached to the "interior" plastic assembly. The sticker states it is to be used in box BXH21B. The listing is for the plastic interior that the breakers go on...not the whole thing you get in a box from HD.

 

[Mr onetwo]

Seems to me when you remove parts from an approved assembly and install them in another panel you no loner have an approved assembly. I understand you disagree the truth is neither of our opinions really matter only the opinion of the inspector matters and if he will approve your work.

“Replacing the whole panel with a bigger one is not an option.”

Why is this true?

Sounds like a thought distortion, I suspect this limitation is more self-imposed than it is in reality.

Walta

Walta, the existing closet is in a very tight finished closet and there is no way I am going to tear out all that wiring and walls to do this. I believe that the "approved assembly" is the guts only and doesn't involve the can or cover at all.

 

[rooster59]

Referencing your pic of the existing panel. Right side, 6th breaker down, what is that?

Can you combine some circuits / wire nut pigtail that don’t draw much current (i.e. LED lights vs. tungsten)?

i’m not telling you not to do it, just trying to think of easier/cheaper alternatives.

 

[mike93lx]

I'd do it, based on the can being the same part and the label sitting on the guts.

I can't picture an inspector even coming close to digging that deep, unless the rest of your work is garbage or you are a ****.

 

[sparky 1971]

Just do it. You're going to do it anyway, just wanting someone to tell you it's going to be ok. I've done it, but it was an Eaton panel with a burned up buss.

 

[Jim greengo]

Do you have a picture of the closet its installed in?

 

[Mr onetwo]

Referencing your pic of the existing panel. Right side, 6th breaker down, what is that?

Can you combine some circuits / wire nut pigtail that don’t draw much current (i.e. LED lights vs. tungsten)?

i’m not telling you not to do it, just trying to think of easier/cheaper alternatives.

It is a tandem breaker incorrectly jammed in there when a contractor installed a heat pump last year.I was not aware that these old style panels do not accommodate tandem breakers.I can't make enough open spaces without doing other things I don't want to do.Switching the guts makes the most sense to me.

 

[Mr onetwo]

I'd do it, based on the can being the same part and the label sitting on the guts.

I can't picture an inspector even coming close to digging that deep, unless the rest of your work is garbage or you are a ****.

The plumbing inspector looks at the electrical around here and he knows little about either I don't think I'm a ****

 

[mike93lx]

How are you disconnecting the feed to this panel?

 

[Mr onetwo]

Do you have a picture of the closet its installed in?

There's no point Jim.Panel is along a sprayfoamed exterior wall on one side.A wall intersects in the middle of the stud bay next to it and there is a structural LVL above it.And it sitts on 2" conduit up thru the slab. I am opening up a hole big enough to drag the 4-4-4-6 SER feeder thru for the other panel and that's it.

 

[woodscaper]

How are you disconnecting the feed to this panel?

That looks like a subpanel?

 

[mike93lx]

That looks like a subpanel?

Yeah, good point.

 

[Mr onetwo]

How are you disconnecting the feed to this panel?

There is a 200 amp meter socket with dual 100 amp disconnects out on a pole beside my garage.1 to garage and 1 to the house

 

[Mr onetwo]

I am going to swap the bolt-on 100 amp main breaker from the new sub panel and put it on the new guts so I have a disconnect in the house.

 

[mike93lx]

I am going to swap the bolt-on 100 amp main breaker from the new sub panel and put it on the new guts so I have a disconnect in the house.

100? You said 125 in the OP. Doesn't really matter though, as it is just a disconnect, so it can exceed the rating of the breaker feeding it

 

[Jim greengo]

There's no point Jim.Panel is along a sprayfoamed exterior wall on one side.A wall intersects in the middle of the stud bay next to it and there is a structural LVL above it.And it sitts on 2" conduit up thru the slab. I am opening up a hole big enough to drag the 4-4-4-6 SER feeder thru for the other panel and that's it.

No,I was just wondering what you're referring to as a closet is all.
Around here most electrical inspectors frown on service panels being installed in coat closets unless it was origional to the build way back in the day.
Since it's a homeline panel,I'm guessing it was a change out at some point and changing the panel wouldnt fly.

 

[mike93lx]

Since it's a homeline panel,I'm guessing it was a change out at some point

Curious why you think this. My house was built with homeline panels in '03. Still working fine and they are certainly not junk

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yeah code does not permit panels in closets...

 

[u2slow]

Unfortunately, electrical Codes have little control what homeowners and other trades do after the fact.

Homeline in '03? I was still installing FPE panels... Homeline (that replaced it) hadn't come out yet.

 

[mike93lx]

Unfortunately, electrical Codes have little control what homeowners and other trades do after the fact.

Homeline in '03? I was still installing FPE panels... Homeline (that replaced it) hadn't come out yet.

I must have a magical one then considering it has a sticker with the initial inspection date of 11/19/03

 

[Innovate1]

Unfortunately, electrical Codes have little control what homeowners and other trades do after the fact.

Homeline in '03? I was still installing FPE panels... Homeline (that replaced it) hadn't come out yet.

Our place was built in 2003/2004 and homeline panels were quite common at that time. Maybe not in BC but at least in the MidWest US.

 

[u2slow]

Maybe not in BC but at least in the MidWest US.

Must be it. Never lived or worked in the midwest US.

 

[mike93lx]

Must be it. Never lived or worked in the midwest US.

Me neither

 

[Innovate1]

Just guessing but I think Jim's point on the changeout was that since it's in a closet the original installation must have been much earlier to be approved. Thus the newer panel must have been a change out. And the change out would not have been to code when the HomeLine panel was available - the change out would have triggered the requirement to bring it up to current code. Of course there's always the possibility some work was done without permits. Maybe it wasn't originally a closet? who knows...

Looking at my HomeLine main panel the box is marked for several options and the guts has a label on the side detailing that (never noticed that label before). So the labeling doesn't seem to be an issue. And changing the guts wouldn't seem to go against any of the safety listings as long as it is put into the same part number can or one that is an approved combination.

The closet on the other hand does seem to be an issue.

 

[sparky 1971]

I'm not interested in looking it up, but I believe the NEC specifically states panels are not allowed in clothes closets, although other than linen closets, there really aren't many kinds of residential closets. If it were a mop closet or a broom closet, the panel would be allowed as long as the working space conditions were met. I don't know when clothes closets were banned, but I do know that in 1996 or 1997 in Highland Park TX, I installed two panels each in two houses side by side that were in bedroom closets. That's where the print showed them, that's where I put them and nothing was ever made of it. Those would have been a ***** to relocate since both houses were EMT.

 

[Mr onetwo]

Guys...my house was built in 2009...inspected and everything passed with flying colors.Wired by a friend who was a master electrician for over 35 years. Its a utility closet that happens to have a few coats hanging there presently.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Its a utility closet that happens to have a few coats hanging there presently.

Unless you remove the coats that's the textbook definition of a clothes closet

 

[mike93lx]

Guys...my house was built in 2009...inspected and everything passed with flying colors.Wired by a friend who was a master electrician for over 35 years. Its a utility closet that happens to have a few coats hanging there presently.

But you are making a change that may require you to meet current code.

Passing inspection also doesn't mean it met code, it could just mean the issue was missed or ignored.

Either way, these are issues that I would want brought to my attention when asking questions.

 

[Mr onetwo]

100? You said 125 in the OP. Doesn't really matter though, as it is just a disconnect, so it can exceed the rating of the breaker feeding it

That was based on the size of the can which had to match the original.100 amp cans are a size 7 and 125 amp cans are a size 8 which is what I need for the new guts.The new interior is convertible and being fed by a 100 amp breaker so I thought I would use the bolt on if it fits.

 

[Mr onetwo]

Unless you remove the coats that's the textbook definition of a clothes closet

I guarantee they won't be there when the inspector shows up.

 

[mike93lx]

That was based on the size of the can which had to match the original.100 amp cans are a size 7 and 125 amp cans are a size 8 which is what I need for the new guts.The new interior is convertible and being fed by a 100 amp breaker so I thought I would use the bolt on if it fits.

Just don't go buying a new main breaker for it if you already have a 125

 

[Mr onetwo]

Yeah code does not permit panels in closets...

What is the definition of "closet" I have been on several jobs the last year and every one had the panel in a "closet". Slab on grade construction...owners don't want to see that ugly panel.

 

[Mr onetwo]

I already have the bolt on main...won't be buying another.

 

[Higgins]

I'm not interested in looking it up, but I believe the NEC specifically states panels are not allowed in clothes closets, although other than linen closets, there really aren't many kinds of residential closets. If it were a mop closet or a broom closet, the panel would be allowed as long as the working space conditions were met. I don't know when clothes closets were banned, but I do know that in 1996 or 1997 in Highland Park TX, I installed two panels each in two houses side by side that were in bedroom closets. That's where the print showed them, that's where I put them and nothing was ever made of it. Those would have been a ***** to relocate since both houses were EMT.

Code requires 30" Left, Right, and in front of the panel!