sweating copper tips/tricks

[hyisbm]

okay, I just picked up a hose reel and will be mounting it up soon. I'm going to be using copper pipes and was double checking on how to sweat pipes and came across this video. Tell me what you think about the transmission fluid trick.

Also, I see some of you guys have designed cooling setups for your air. Just wondering what the benefit is by doing this. With my current compressor location, I would just need a pipe going straight up to the reel which will be right next to the garage door. Plain and simple.

 

[99_xc600]

The biggest thing with sweating copper is having everything nice and clean. Meaning you have:

Shiny ends - No oxidation
Flat ends - No burr's or bump's in the pipe
Ample flux on both sides of the joint
Sufficient heat - MAP gas is great
No water in the pipe

 

[neverenoughtools]

The biggest thing with sweating copper is having everything nice and clean. Meaning you have:

Shiny ends - No oxidation
Flat ends - No burr's or bump's in the pipe
Ample flux on both sides of the joint
Sufficient heat - MAP gas is great
No water in the pipe

x2

 

[cjbcpa]

Whenever I'm repairing household copper pipe, one essential piece of equipment is a loaf of white bread.

I tear a piece out (no crust), ball it up and stick it an inch or two into the upstream portion of the pipe. It soaks up any water in the pipe and expands to stop any water long enough to get things soldered and back together. It evenually dissolves and passes through the rest of the system.

CB

 

[bushpilot]

Water/Moisture becomes STEAM - and blows out the solder causing leaks.

its an old plumbers trick <when soldering copper water lines>....a WAD of WHITE BREAD stuff in the pipe will absorb the water and prevent steam long enough to get the solder formed.

the bread dissolves when water hits it and it wont clog the pipe (assuming you dont use
the CRUST)...if you have to do this in an airline <somethings wrong> and you need to let the wad of bread be blow out the end of the copper pipe BEFORE you put the ends on.

 

[DirtyWhiteBoy]

FYI: the water soluble flux seems to be less rookie friendly.
It took me a few joints to realize why. It boiled out faster and did not allow the solder to flow, because I was using too much heat.

 

[logical]

Save the white bread for the sandwich after....he's putting in an air line, not repairing a toilet water supply.

 

[rickairmedic]

Ok here we go .

1. Get a roll of sanding cloth ( usually in the plumbing area of the store ) .

Clean all joints well inside the couplers as well as the ends of the pipes ( there is no such thing as " to clean " .


2. Apply flux to all joints ( you can get flux brushes in the same area they sell flux ) .


3. Heat the fittings at the joints ( not the pipes ) .

4. Have your solder ready roll out 6" or so . depending on what gas your using ( I like Mapp gas ) ( yellow cylinders ) about 10 seconds roughly after you start heating start trying the solder on the joint . When the solder starts to melt and **** into the joint remove the heat and run the solder around the joint .


5. The general rule of thumb is 1/2" pipe neds 1/2" of solder at the joint 3/4" pipe 3/4" of solder etc. You can wipe away extro solder if you use to much ( while the joint is still hot ) .Use a rag to wipe away extra solder as the pipes will still be hot enough to burn the snot out of you .


The way I teach guys how to sweat pipe is to give them a 10' stick of 1/2" and several fittings and have them make something with it ( after I have shown them how to do it .

I would recomend taking a small stick of pipe and a few fittings and practicing before you start on your airlines .


Forget about the white bread for this project as you wont have any water in your airlines .


Rick

 

[mooman]

If using MAPP gas, be careful you don't disolve the flux before you solder. Mapp gas sometimes has the nasty habit of cooking the flux out of a joint before the solder is applied. This is normally because first time users don't relize how fast it can reach the melting point of the solder.

 

[hyisbm]

what do you guys think about his transmission trick? Seems to me like it's just extra work not to mention safety.

thanks for all the tips and suggestions.

 

[c_mccann]

Who wipes the sweated joint with flux after the sweat?

 

[djjsr]

Who wipes the sweated joint with flux after the sweat?

I've seen people do that but it never made sense to me.

It's a good idea to clean off any excess flux after the joint is cool. Flux will corrode copper.

 

[kbs2244]

I have seen lots of very neat and clean solder joints.
Even did a few myself.
I have never heard of using transmission fluid anywhere near the process.

 

[Ign]

IME fresh flux is key. One time I couldn't figure out why I was sucking so bad. The flux had been sitting in my shop for a couple years. Purchased new flux and it went so much better. I don't recall if it was lead free, but probably.

 

[bushpilot]

Save the white bread for the sandwich after....he's putting in an air line, not repairing a toilet water supply.

i know that, but it still is a good trick...and if he's new to sweating pipe its worth knowing.

 

[rvr6000]

As the son of a plumber I can say my dad always wiped the joints with his handkerchief to clean them and make them look nice. He would then catch hell from mom when she did laundry and had to pick little soder pebbles out of the washing machine.

 

[bushpilot]

As the son of a plumber I can say my dad always wiped the joints with his handkerchief to clean them and make them look nice. He would then catch hell from mom when she did laundry and had to pick little soder pebbles out of the washing machine.

he should have PATENTED that...today they call it ACID wash or STONE washing jeans and charge MORE for it !

 

[ddawg16]

All good advice above......

But I can't stress the "clean" part enough....the cleaner, the better...I always use 220 grit sand paper to get things clean....then finish up with the brush....

Also....test fit the pieces....you should not have to force them together....and they should not be too lose. If the piece falls off if hel vertical....too lose (very unlikely). You should be able to rotate the pieces without any significant draging.

As noted....you can boil out the flux....

I always apply heat to the heaviest part first. Once it gets to temp, then the lighter part....it usually only takes a couple of seconds to get to final temp....

Touch the solder to the joint...if it slowely melts...your not hot enough....keep testing until it melts quickly and flows. A good clean proper fitting joint will look like it soaks up the solder. Keep pushing in the solder until it starts to clump at the bottom.

I wipe mine with a wet rag that is sitting in a bucket of water. It makes for a clean joint and it helps cool the pipe quicker so you can move on to the next section....I hate burning my arm on hot pipes....

 

[csp]

I wipe excess solder off with a cotton glove. A plumber friend of mine showed me that trick to making clean appearing solder joints.

 

[wssix99]

The youtube guy is going to become a victim of natural selection. Please don't join him! (Rubbing a combustible fluid on a pipe you are going to take a flame to is just not a smart thing to do.)

If you are looking for a clean finish, I'd suggest using this solderless system: http://www.viega.net/cps/rde/xbcr/en-us/724582PPBR0810.pdf It's rated for air, requires no soldering, and gives you a perfect seal every time. It's also much faster to install!

 

[Greatbear]

I use "tinning flux" as flux. Tinning flux has a small amount of powdered solder mixed in. When the joint is heated to the melting point, the solder in the tinning flux immediately coats the copper, this makes it easier to add solder from the roll, plus use less of it. Done right, the pipes look furnace-brazed.

After the solder sets and the pipes are almost cool, wipe them with a damp rag, this removes the acid flux residue that will eventually corrode the pipes. To make the pipes look good for years to come, give them a liberal spray and wipe with WD-40.

 

[onething]

If you are looking for a clean finish, I'd suggest using this solderless system: http://www.viega.net/cps/rde/xbcr/en-us/724582PPBR0810.pdf It's rated for air, requires no soldering, and gives you a perfect seal every time. It's also much faster to install!

I can see that working great for industrial applications but can you rent the tool? That looks expensive.

 

[REAL HOT SCHITT]

Nx xc600 is on the nail, the trick is to heat the hell outta the copper and apply a liberal amount of flux to clean, once cleaned it wont stay clean for long due to oxidation.

After cleaning couple up joint, just apply a litle flux to joint and heat to hell then apply solder until it sux in.

Note; make sure you don t wear your finnest threads as the flux, being a acid will just eat holes in2 them.

 

[KrisKustomPaint]

I'm with the old timer that wipes the joint with a rag (or handkerchief) makes the joint look nice and clean. Just a swipe of a clean rag when its still hot works wonders.

 

[wssix99]

I can see that working great for industrial applications but can you rent the tool? That looks expensive.

Purchasing the tool is a bit of a... commitment. The power tool is very expensive but the manual presser for the smaller pipe is more reasonable. (Although these are a bit harder to find.) The other thing is that there is a sacrificial component and you have to have it rebuilt after a certain number of crimps to make sure it stays properly calibrated. (But only a professional plumber would ever hit that limit.)

Some places do rent the tools. The commercial plumbing supply that carries the fittings would probably know of local places that would rent them.

 

[chase237]

Just don't do what I did, complete with clear coat to keep shiny. Unless you have too much time on your hands like I do.

 

[trainer]

I was taught not to touch the joint to be soldered with bare fingers after you clean them and don't apply flux with your fingers.

 

[hyisbm]

Chase - thanks for the pictures. If only my garage was more deserving of a nice and shiny air system.

depending on the prices of the pipes, I was thinking of just going with 1/2 inch piping for now. 10 feet should cover everything. I already dropped $30 on additional couplers already. the piping and adapters may be another $30 $-40. I didn't really want to spend too much on this project as I hope it will only be temporary. I'm only doing it so I can mount the real on the ceiling and have another output down lower.

 

[BLUBAYOU]

While soldering, make sure the heated air inside the pipe can escape. If you're sweating valves in the piping system, make sure they're open during assembly. If they're not, it's possible to build pressure inside the pipe when soldering, which can blow a pinhole through the soldered joint, obviously leaking once air'd up.

Doesn't happen too often, but it's possible and annoying to fix!

 

[Nighttrain]

Just don't do what I did, complete with clear coat to keep shiny. Unless you have too much time on your hands like I do.

That system looks nice, . After deciding on using brass for my system and how much it's going to cost I want to have it exposed and show it off.

Any issues with the clear coat? I had thought about just using "Braso" on mine and whenever my kids got in trouble I would just make them go out and shine the pipes. Hey I had to shine a bunch of brass in my early military days.


Also I noticed your metal clips on the brass. I was looking for a brass clip but have not found any yet. Any issues with the dis-similar metals? Again nice garge set up.

 

[floyd]

Okay - I'm going against the do it yourself crowd. I want copper lines but do not have the time (and probably the skill) to do it right. Who should I look for to do this? A good plumber? Are there contractors that plumb air lines for shops? Thanks

 

[rickairmedic]

Floyd if you are going with copper then I would say either a good plumber or an HVAC tech would be your best bets on a good install. The Plumber may be cheaper .

Rick

 

[Plump]

chase237 - looks great..you're crazy, and I wish I had the time!

Some other particular members with OCD like myself would say to come off the main copper line away from the floor (up vertically) first so that any water in the lines wouldn't get into your coupler and air tools. The TP Tools link has been shown to death in this blog but it bears repeating for the best use of hard-line for air.

 

[floyd]

rickairmedic - thanks much. I called a local plumber (used once in the past) and it turns out he's done airlines in a number of shops. He's coming by on Sat to look it over.

 

[rickairmedic]

Floyd talk to him about what he will use for solder . I would recomend Staybrite #8 at a minimum rather than plain old plumbers solder . I use it regularly and the tensil strenght and melting point are alot higher than regular plumbing solder . He can use his usual flux with it however. The best option is hard stick and brazing but Stay Bright # 8 will do the job.

Rick

 

[beltfeed]

I'll scotchbrite the joint while it's still warm for cleanup. Or a damp rag wipe. Keeping the rag a little damp helps keep the fingers from smoking.

 

[willysrule]

All advice above it good, clean as you can get it! I also wipe the parts down with acetone or alcohol before applying flux, I know that’s a little excessive but I have never had a leak when doing it that way, even on 250psi+ fire system repairs at work…I too wipe the joint before it cools with a damp rag, just the way I was taught and I think it makes it look better…

Don’t forget there are different grades of copper tubing…

Type M is the thinnest wall tubing (red lettering)
Type L is the medium wall thickness (blue lettering)
And Type K is the thick wall but it is much harder to find at your normal hardware stores.

Type M should work just fine, bursting pressure is around 300 psi IIRC. But I like to use the Type L it seems to be nicer to work with and it gives that added safety incase the line is bumped or hit by something…

 

[hyisbm]

where are you guys finding the 1/2 to 1/4 adapter? The only one I could find was a brass one in the plumbing section and it seems like the thread is off a little bit. It just doesn't screw it all the way.

 

[rickairmedic]

I found mine in the tool section over near the air tools.


Rick

 

[Lippyp]

I've re-plumbed one bathroom, one kitchen and created two bathrooms from scratch. I use a pipe cutter to cut the pipe nice and square and then a de-burring tool to de-burr the inside of the cut end, a good glean up with some fine wire wool till its nice and shiny, apply flux to the pipe and coupling, assemble, heat the hell out of it with a propane torch and then apply the solder to the end when its hot. Never had a joint fail yet. Wipe any excess off with a damp cloth. In France they don't use solid solder, they use a solder paste thats flux with ground up solder in it, you just clean the joint, paint both the pipe and coupling with the paste, assemble and heat and you see it flash to silver when its hot enough.