sweating copper tips/tricks

[bochnak]

One time I did not have white bread and used a wheat nut bread. It prevented the water from taking all my heat away, and I was able to solder the joint, but man did it clog the toilet and sink valves downstream.

I was cleaning bread particles out for the next hour...d'oh.

 

[hyisbm]

I found mine in the tool section over near the air tools.


Rick

thanks, I totally forgot to look over there. Didn't help that the employees had no idea either.

 

[hyisbm]

another question - when you are sweating short connectors or T's, do you prep all of the joints and do them at once or do you do each joint individually? Because the joints are so close, will it melt if you do the separately?

 

[csp]

Prep them all at once and do them at the same time. The heat will need to be focused on each individual joint, so you sweat one and move to the next closest.

You will want to brush on additional flux once the first joint is sweated and you move on to the second, and so on.

 

[chase237]

That system looks nice, . After deciding on using brass for my system and how much it's going to cost I want to have it exposed and show it off.

Any issues with the clear coat? I had thought about just using "Braso" on mine and whenever my kids got in trouble I would just make them go out and shine the pipes. Hey I had to shine a bunch of brass in my early military days.


Also I noticed your metal clips on the brass. I was looking for a brass clip but have not found any yet. Any issues with the dis-similar metals? Again nice garge set up.

Thanks,
The cost is huge right now. The clear coat is a satin clear in a rattle can. I had to plan out the sections, clear, hang and finally connect it all together and clear without overspray. No issues whatsoever. Stays shiny.
The clips have a small vinyl gasket to separate the two dissimilar metals. Also keeps things snug. I picked up a small piece of pool drain hose i think. And cut to fit.
Took way too long but gets lots of crazy comments

 

[Frank The Plumber]

So it comes to this, showing you how to stuff a left over dough nut into your pipe and burn the **** out of it using an over sized torch and no eye wear. The video this guy produced absolutely missed the most fundamental soldering technique, heat control. Most people over heat the pipe and are done before they start. Solder melts at a range of 430 to 450, this depends upon it's alloy content. The flux burns at 450 to 475. This gives you a small window to work with, if you burn the flux the fitting immediately oxidizes, then you are done. Take a sample of copper, a small piece, apply some flux, apply some heat. Watch the chemical process that is occurring. As the flux temperature rises you will notice that it shines, a little more temperature and you will notice that the flux goes opaque, it is at this point in the 350 to 400 range, solder should be applied, further heating will show a mild crusting on the flux, this flux is close to the maximum heat range, within seconds it will oxidize and the joint will foul, surface fluxing or refluxing will only BS the final product. Keep in mind that this is a professional talent, it's a lot like pinstripping or stacking dimes, after a few years you get good or you get fired and go push carts at the grocery store.
This is important more important than the other BS.. Water pipes have a consumable product within them. You drink this like a can of soda a glass of milk or any other product. Just like any other product that you consume you can spoil it and get sick from it's consumption. Stuffing nutrient (bread) into your piping should not become a common practice, it will promote bacterial growth within your lines. It should be 100% flushed from your pipe lines to avoid an uncontrolled bacterial growth and not flushed through or into appliances such as hot water heaters or faucets. It should in most every case be used to stop a water flow ahead of a valve installation after which point it is fully flushed within inches of the newly installed valve. You should also never use any type of a toxic chemical, coating etc near your water lines. You would never wash out your favorite coffee mug with a toxic fluid, Why TF would you use it on your water lines? A licensed professional plumber fully understands that what you can not see can kill you. You can contaminate a piping system to the point that it needs to be completely removed to be corrected. As far as coatings and chemicals to keep your pipes shiny, yeah great, except that a truly correct installation and one that is really impressive and efficient will be covered with an ASJ type covering to maximize thermal efficiency. That's the truly pro installation, a pro looking covering job.

 

[Frank The Plumber]

Prep them all at once and do them at the same time. The heat will need to be focused on each individual joint, so you sweat one and move to the next closest.

You will want to brush on additional flux once the first joint is sweated and you move on to the second, and so on.

No, you are over heating, lower your temp and play your heat better. Don't just park it there feather it. Same as welding with gas etc.

 

[csp]

Where did I say anything about the temperature or "parking it there"?

The point was that the heat will be focused on one joint at a time as you sweat that particular joint, then move to the next joint. You're not going to sweat all three joints with the flame settled in one location on the fitting.

 

[MrMark]

A lot of very bad info in this thread, especially with regard to heating and especially by this clown on the video. What a horrible plumber. The correct way to solder is shown in the Copper Handbook which is available online. It shows how to heat the pipe all the way around and then move to the fitting and how to keep the flame positioned opposite the solder as the solder is wiped around the joint. Soldering is an art and one that is almost never done close to correctly, even by so-called licensed professional plumbers.

Too much flux is another way to ruin the joint and encourage solder to run down inside the fitting. The flux should be applied sparingly and not overheated as Frank the Plumber stated. The trick to soldering is to move fast, heat fast, solder fast and have strong hand skill. Most plumbers just put the torch on the bottom of the fitting and heat it up, touching the solder to the top of the joint and then pushing some solder into the joint at the top. That may work on the small lines 1/2 and down but it won't work on the larger sizes, and it's not correct.

I encourage all interested to read the very short description of how to solder correctly as shown in the Copper Manufacturer's Handbook.

There is almost never a reason to use bread either. The line can be sucked out with a small piece of tubing or blown out with compressed air or, if all else fails, a compression valve installed to shut off the water so a repair can be made.

 

[MrMark]

These are air lines, Frank, they don't get covered. I like the idea of the clear lacquer. If I ever do air I may incorporate that idea.

 

[rickairmedic]

MrMark you hit the nail on the head . These are air lines nobody here is building a rocket ship.

Go to Lowes or Home Depot but a 10' stick of 1/2" copper , buy a bag of 1/2 " 90's , buy a 1/2" T fiting and buy a 1/2" slip X3/4" female fitting . Buy a roll of solder a tub of flux , some flux brushes and a roll of plumbers cloth ( sanding cloth ) . Go to the tool section and buy a torch and some gas propane or Mapp . I prefer Mapp but I have been doing this for a LONG time .



Ok take all this **** home cut 1' of the 1/2" copper off the 10' pipe on one end goes the 1/2" T on the other goes the 1/2" slip X 3/4" female fitting. Now take the other 9' of pipe and the 1/2" 90's and make a desighn using the 1' piece you started with as the bottom. Fit everything together to make sure your desighn works . Then take it apart and clean every fitting and joint ( this is what the plumbers cloth is for ) . Then reasemble it using flux at every joint .


Ok now using what you have learned in this thread solder the dang thing together .


Ok let it cool while you go get the hose . Now hook the male end of the hose to the female fitting on your masterpiece . Now go tuen on the water . Do you see any leaks if yes you need more practice if no then go start on your air lines . Once done with the air lines if you get bored go back to your masterpiece and drill ( small random holes in it and you now have a neat sprinkler of sorts .


Rick

 

[djjsr]

Like a lot of threads here, there are so many different people with so many different methods, it makes the thread useless.

 

[Frank The Plumber]

If you really have that much water in a line try this trick, take a wet dry vac and **** and evacuate the line via suction as you tilt the line towards you, this should buy you a precious minute or two. See if you can then elevate the line, determine how much time you have created to perform your task, you need a dry line generally to avoid causing steam pressure from spitting the solder joint out. I roughly need 30 seconds of time, that's being a 30 year guy and I sprout a rocket to get this thing done. I would say the average Joe would need until a 75 count of dry line. If you cannot get this, jam in your white bread after you again **** out the line, elevate the line, solder on a valve or a male iron pipe adapter, the MIP adapter can accept a valve which you would then close, restore your water and open the valve and immediately flush, you can then turn off he valve, have proper control of your water and...you will not have contaminates in your line. Most times if you can not turn your water off this valve will be used again in the future. I have used the wet dry vac trick in some very precarious places with a lot of money in equipment under me, I used a sweat stopper a full port valve and a small wet dry vac. The only water I lost was out my fore head. If you want to see how good you are and are bored solder your joints up and hack saw split them and peel them open, you will learn a lot by splitting a couple bucks in tees. Generally on fittings 1/2 and 3/4 the joint is done as a unit, the joint should be always started at the bottom, larger joints use a filler method as per the book Mark refers to, this book is written and provided by the copper industry. The filler material needs to remain liquid without burning out the flux which is an oxygen blocker (food safe wax and citric or natural acid) The trick is to apply the heat at a point which keeps the joint liquid and the flux in range. The best practice is to heat a small tee as a unit and move your ****, larger tees get heated at the backs of the cups for final draw in. The pipe and fitting should be area heated to about 350 or so and then the working heat applied by feathering it in at the time of filler being applied. All I can say is this, the gospel on technique and application will be the handbook, how you apply it's principles will vary per your skill set. You should prior to going out to the home center and dropping a grand or 2 to repipe your own home, get a few fittings and a couple feet of pipe and play and learn, it is a skill set. Given proper time and respect you can acquire it and do an admirable job.

 

[djjsr]

Here's a good reference if you're interested in learning the fundamentals of soldering joints.

http://www.copper.org/applications/plumbing/techref/cth/cth_6soljts_intro.html

 

[Frank The Plumber]

Here's a good reference if you're interested in learning the fundamentals of soldering joints.

http://www.copper.org/applications/plumbing/techref/cth/cth_6soljts_intro.html[/QUOTE

Yup, that's where you get the copper tube handbook that Mark was referring to, the bible.

 

[MrMark]

Frank,

let's face it the biggest challenge to doing nice soldering work for even the best is the vertical fitting where the solder ends up running down the pipe and you get "Candlestick Park."

What are your thoughts on this.

Here is what I have done that is the best I can do:

1) flux sparingly, just enough to cover the joint;
2) when heating the joint wipe away the flux as it starts to bubble and run down the pipe, the solder wants to follow the flux and the flux running down the pipe is bad news. The plumber on the video does this with his stupid trans fluid rag (what a crack pot) but he is working on a horizontal joint and doesn't even need to do that there.
3) here is the real skill factor: don't overfill the joint and stop when the joint is full - very tough to know when to stop and the tendancy is always to give it just a little more.

Thoughts?

 

[Frank The Plumber]

Mark; I have been a foreman on some very large jobs and seen all kinds of very dumb stuff. If the man came out to my project and used a transmission fluid to keep his joints looking nice he would get his *** lit up in short order. All of his transmission fluid exposed work would be removed and properly reinstalled, all of his previous work history would be examined and possibly if able I would see to it that all of this work be removed and reinstalled. I would recommend retraining at the very least. I strongly suggest that he remove himself in any way from the public eye using this method.
Some may think; Frank is over reacting, not really, if you have a toxic fluid that is on your rag, it's on your hands, your tools, it's every where, the brushes the flux, and inside the tube, it's in contact with the water, if it's in contact with the water, guess what? you get to drink it. Not only you, your wife your kids your dog every one who ever drinks your water, Why TF should you? Just cause a guy can't solder? While we may dismiss this and say, Hey what harm could it do? Why should we? A Plumber is supposed to be a highly skilled intelligent well paid craftsman, The prevailing hourly wage in this area is $44 per hour. That is a very nice living wage, it should be reserved for those who are of a high caliber, high skill level. A caring intelligent professional. Suppose this man installs the water piping within the systems of a public school, perhaps he installs a large percentage of the possible 8000+ solder joints that can be present. How much transmission fluid will then be present. More importantly. Why should we ever ask the question? How much transmission fluid is within the water pipe lines of our drinking water? A man who posses a plumbers license and has walked through life in a reasonably coherent state performing plumbing and being able to read should fully realize that this practice is bad. We recently were regulated to using a water safe flux, a bio safe and almost totally consumable fluxing compound. This is because in all public systems in my area, the water has to be lab tested and deemed safe as it passes through this new system. With higher standards and testing the old flux was failing the tests. How do you think a line contaminated with transmission fluid will fare. I strongly advise any of you to not use this example as a guide to over coming a skill shortfall, please do not use any type of oils, fluids etc that may be harmful to your health when performing the task of water piping. The Plumber protects the health of the nation, even when he is not performing the actual work it is his sworn duty under oath to keep you safe from harm.

 

[Frank The Plumber]

Soldering a copper joint:
As in any heat applied science, welding, brazing, soldering, even ironing a crisp white shirt the main and fundamental skill is the application of heat.
Soldering a copper joint and ironing a crisp white shirt are almost exactly similar. Too much heat you wreck the shirt, same as a copper joint.
The first and most wrong thing that is done when soldering copper is the choosing of the heating device or torch. In the olden days an acetylene torch was used. We would have a bunch of different tips to choose from, we received a nice narrow easy to control flame pattern from this torch. The price of and handling of acetylene rendered this set up almost obsolete and expensive to use, I still use this for lead pan and flashing work.
We then gravitated to propane, and MAPP gas systems which we have to induce or inject air into using a venturi to get a clean burn. Without the clean burn we blow carbon out of the tip and foul our joint. When buying a torch you should invest in multiple tips, you can not easily use just one size. I use the little MAPP set up from the home store with the small bottle for 95% of my work.
The next thing you need to under stand is the actual heat out put of your device. Turn on your torch, hold the flame safely so as to view it. It looks like a little rocket ships flame trail. Look at all of those pretty colors. Remember ROY G BIV? Look at the torch, hey there he is, the spectral colors, ROYGBIV is the color of the heat emissions that create visible light. Red being the coolest, Violet being the hottest. On a torch that produces a flame temperature of 2200 F that temperature would occur at violet. At red the temperature would be perhaps 700F. The solder you are using has an application temperature of 450 on average. If you heat the joint with violet you are at 2200F, Well you get a very short window of application time at 2200F, RIGHT? So we take and feather and play our heat, watching which color of the spectrum we are applying to the work, we watch the flux for indicators, if we go to opaque too quickly we pull the flame back and feather our heat away from the joint, this stops the heating and we can allow the heat to dissipate a bit and perhaps even apply just a touch of red or yellow cooler spectrum heat. Play it, it is an art form. Can you add a bit of flux to the surface, yes, but only if the flux has not browned.
The one strange trick that physics works upon our world is capillary attraction. You saw this in second grade science class. Two panes of glass held tightly together are placed on a flat container of water and up the water goes into the gap between the glass.
Another physics trick is that liquids can be drawn towards a heat source.
The combination of these two feats of physics allow us to solder a joint cup upside down. The joint must be uniformly hot enough to accept the filler metal as a liquid, the heat is applied sparingly and consciously to the back of the cup, feathering it in the heat range, the liquid filler metal will then be drawn into the joint by both principles and you will see that the joint is full by witnessing a small filler droplet that is not allowed in to the joint cup. You may then if you wish allow the joint to cool and reapply a small bit of heat to only the droplet and detail that in for appearance. You should then wipe the joint with a warm moist dedicated cloth to neutralize the flux and clean the joint. You should not apply cooling water to the joint until it air cools to under 150 F or you may fracture the solder joint by shocking it.
As I say practice it, none of us were born walking either.

 

[gsport]

thanks Frank... i've never soldered, you sure have opened my eyes to it, if i ever try it..

 

[59 wagon man]

if you watch the flame as your heating the tubing you will see a change in the flame to a green color .as soon as you notice this begin to apply your solder and then begin to feather the flame away from the joint been doing this for 35 yrs and would never intenionally introduce oil in a solder joint ,to wipe the joint you can use anything, in a pinch i've wiped very quickly with just a bare fingerto remove the little drips of solder that hang on the bottom. in some ways it would probably be easier for a lot of you to braze as it is less sensitive to being overheated