Jim greengo
Well-known member
I've been around a long time,but I've never seen anbody torque the screws on an outlet or switch.
Switches and Outlets Falling Apart???
- Thread starter DawgPaw
- Start date
I think they are great!!!
The portion of my house that was wired in 1926 is really one just one big pair of shared neutral circuits.
(I've never had a problem with a non-linear load. I think all loads are linear. It's just a matter of scale and perspective; like evaluating a hyperbola.)
Yes, it is not easy to loop under a screw, and I bet this was a FKT up arcing connection.
Jim greengo
Well-known member
Marctrees
Well-known member
Once, years ago. I was moving a few connections in a breaker panel while the load buss's where hot.
I lifted a neutral from it's bar, moved it.
Soon we had a burning smell in another room.
Turns out an old electric typewriter that was turned on was on a multiwire ckt w a lower impedance item..
When the neutral is removed, then the two items are in "series" splitting the total 230v depending on impedance.
Making the typerwiter getting more than 120... so it fried.
We had to pay to replace it... My mistake.
A learning experience.
Marc
I lifted a neutral from it's bar, moved it.
Soon we had a burning smell in another room.
Turns out an old electric typewriter that was turned on was on a multiwire ckt w a lower impedance item..
When the neutral is removed, then the two items are in "series" splitting the total 230v depending on impedance.
Making the typerwiter getting more than 120... so it fried.
We had to pay to replace it... My mistake.
A learning experience.
Marc
99LeCouch
Well-known member
Went through that with my house and garage. The builder grade stuff simply wore out after 20 years.
The garage had some outlets that were really loose. And connections that were not tight at all.
The garage had some outlets that were really loose. And connections that were not tight at all.
I pulled a GFCI out of my basement that only push in connections. No screws. i think I tossed it, I couldn't find it when I looked for it.
Current code requires the use of a (calibrated!) torque tool, if the manufacturer provides a torque spec. There's an exception for cases where the instructions provide an alternative method.
I expect that logging of torque is going to be pretty common in commercial jobs in the not distant future. improperly torqued connectors (they're usually too tight, btw) are one of the top few causes of electrical fire.
Jim greengo
Well-known member
Yeah,in not going to hold my breathe waiting for an Inspector to start checking/enforcing that!
I just had an inspection last week on a residential addition and a new service to house,inspector never checked torque on anything including lugs in meter socket or panel.
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rlitman
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I'm calling BS on the "usually too tight" claim.
checkthisout
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Probably in the use of aluminum wires for feeders and such at panels
I bet a lot of aluminum wire fasteners get overtorqued.
checkthisout
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I've never heard of an inspector calling for that,what's the code ref?
2014 NEC. You are required to upgrade to arc fault and tamper proofs when you replace outlets.
This bites a LOT of people who.
If you're not on 2014 or above NEC you wouldn't have heard about it.
rlitman
Well-known member
Well, I’ll admit that I have pretty much no experience with aluminum wires, and I plan to keep it that way.
MFolks
Well-known member
When replacing the wall receptacles,why not install some that have the USB ports in them for areas that need them rather than a plug in power source? Bedrooms,computer rooms,and kitchens/dining rooms?
benjamintmiller
Well-known member
I do have a torque screwdriver, and have learned that the ~45 lb-in most breakers call for is about all I'm capable of applying with a screwdriver.
I would be astonished if most improperly torqued connectors were too tight and not too loose.
Jim greengo
Well-known member
The tamper proof recepts have been the norm around here for along time
bczygan
Well-known member
Circa 1941 house here.
Outlets and switches go bad.
I replace them.
Bill
Outlets and switches go bad.
I replace them.
Bill
Nobody is installing arcfault protection just because they are changing a recept. Even small circuit extensions often don't get arc fault. Personally I avoid them whenever I can get away with it. I'm not convinced they do anything other than cost more and plague me with call backs.
As far a torquing goes I think it's a little ridiculous wanting people to torque receptacles. If you have half a brain you can judge when it's tight enough. If your doing big gear then I'm all for using a torque wrench especially if you don't do it a lot.
As far a torquing goes I think it's a little ridiculous wanting people to torque receptacles. If you have half a brain you can judge when it's tight enough. If your doing big gear then I'm all for using a torque wrench especially if you don't do it a lot.
checkthisout
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Yes I know. Was just giving a heads up because that's the rule. Nobody would ever know but if you have an inspector in your house for something else or you decide to upgrade oldy moldy outlets to prettier decora as maybe part of a larger remodel, the inspector will notice and flag you.
I have replaced outlets in that exact situation and did not install arc faults. No problems passing inspection. I'm guessing it would have to be a real A-hole inspector to enforce that.
I guess if you think it might be a problem wait to change the outlets until after the new stuff is inspected.
Jim greengo
Well-known member
99LeCouch
Well-known member
Or just do the entire house so it all matches. And if those outlets were falling apart, the other ones are likely close behind. Who's to say it wasn't Decora style before it was yours?
They have started stocking arc fault outlets at southern CA big box stores. I'm having an electrical final adding 109 circuits to my kitchen. All have to be arc fault protected. My refrigerator might end up on a regular breaker.
Edit that to 10. I had to hide a few countertop appliances. You have to submit an electrical plan. Tell them you are going to have a toaster, microwave and coffeepot on the counter and they'll say 4 circuits on the counter (one open for 'small appliances').
Edit that to 10. I had to hide a few countertop appliances. You have to submit an electrical plan. Tell them you are going to have a toaster, microwave and coffeepot on the counter and they'll say 4 circuits on the counter (one open for 'small appliances').
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Jim greengo
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checkthisout
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I do actually like arc fault protection. It's the final layer of protection that makes an electrical system damn near fault proof.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
109 circuits? Good lord you must have a lot of kitchen appliances
I meant 10. I had to hide a few countertop appliances. You have to submit an electrical plan. Tell them you are going to have a toaster, microwave and coffeepot on the counter and they'll say 4 circuits on the counter (one open for 'small appliances').
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Code is 2 circuits for small appliances.
I've never heard of an inspector calling for that,what's the code ref?
Existing branch ckt wiring modified, replaced, or extended requires AFCI protection to be added. NEC 210.12(D)
Changing out a receptacle is not modifying wiring. A receptacle is a device.
Extending an existing ckt 6' or less but adding no additional outlets or devices does not invoke the AFCI protection requirement..
NEC 210.12(D) provides this exception.
Unless those mentioned small appliances are fixed/permantently wired in (and I doubt they are), only 2 small appliance branch ckts are required as a minimum. More is ok to have, but code does not require it.
Requiring 4 ckts with one being "open" is inspector b.s.
checkthisout
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Not correct. Read below:
406.4(d)
(4) Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection. Where a receptacle outlet is supplied by a branch circuit that requires arc-fault circuit-interrupter protection as specified elsewhere in this Code, a replacement receptacle at this outlet shall be one of the following:
(1) A listed outlet branch-circuit type arc-fault circuit-interrupter receptacle
(2) A receptacle protected by a listed outlet branch-circuit type arc-fault circuit-interrupter type receptacle
(3) A receptacle protected by a listed combination type arc-fault circuit-interrupter type circuit breaker
I see your point with 406.4(D)(4).
The 2014 NEC version has a direct conflict with the exception I referenced - 406.4(D)(4) vs. 210.12(B) exception.
The 2017 NEC article 406.4(D)(4) Exception #2 makes an exception to the exception noted in 210.12(B) (actually in (D) of 2017 version). Looks like their attempt to clean up that inconsistency.
So based on 2017 code, as I now read both articles together, you can extend the circuit conductors (all of 6') w/o requiring afci but changing a recept requires afci.
So once that is enforced locally, it surely kills the gravy jobs of changing out all devices during a remodel/home purchase.
I see your point with 406.4(D)(4).
The 2014 NEC version has a direct conflict with the exception I referenced - 406.4(D)(4) vs. 210.12(B) exception.
The 2017 NEC article 406.4(D)(4) Exception #2 makes an exception to the exception noted in 210.12(B) (actually in (D) of 2017 version). Looks like their attempt to clean up that inconsistency.
So based on 2017 code, as I now read both articles together, you can extend the circuit conductors (all of 6') w/o requiring afci but changing a recept requires afci.
So once that is enforced locally, it surely kills the gravy jobs of changing out all devices during a remodel/home purchase.
I think the intent of allowing the 6' extension is if you are doing a panel change you can spice and extend the wire a little bit if needed without being required to install afci.
Re: small appliance circuits. My problem is with getting the permit. Permit office is open 7-12, right when I'm supposed to be at work. There are beetlcrat counter people who won't approve the permit unless anything that is always plugged in has a circuit. I had new panel put in, so I have the slots, so I gave up.
Beetlcrats gave me a permit on my single family home. The upstairs master suite was, at one time, a permitted apartment (dormer addition in 1946). The tax roles had my home as duplex (the apartment has been used as a master suite for over 50 years). Even though the beetlcrats issued me a permit for 10 circuits as a single family home, they wouldn't let me final until the tax roles were changed to show a single family home. This was because the city code says licensed electricians only on multi-family units. That took a year. Our research showed the change had been made in the late 70's, a computer change-over missed that detail around the turn of the century. So, at least we didn't have to pay.
Many contractors in Southern California stay the F away from Glendale CA, I hear the beetlcratic BS is sometimes worse than...wait for it...Santa Monica CA!.
Beetlcrats gave me a permit on my single family home. The upstairs master suite was, at one time, a permitted apartment (dormer addition in 1946). The tax roles had my home as duplex (the apartment has been used as a master suite for over 50 years). Even though the beetlcrats issued me a permit for 10 circuits as a single family home, they wouldn't let me final until the tax roles were changed to show a single family home. This was because the city code says licensed electricians only on multi-family units. That took a year. Our research showed the change had been made in the late 70's, a computer change-over missed that detail around the turn of the century. So, at least we didn't have to pay.
Many contractors in Southern California stay the F away from Glendale CA, I hear the beetlcratic BS is sometimes worse than...wait for it...Santa Monica CA!.
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MikeF2316
Well-known member
I assume you mean bureaucrat:
An official in a government department, in particular one perceived as being concerned with procedural correctness at the expense of people's needs.
An official in a government department, in particular one perceived as being concerned with procedural correctness at the expense of people's needs.
I give bureaucrats the benefit of the doubt, assume they are doing their divided duties in maybe/probably not the most efficient way. But, at least trying and getting something done. What you call a bureaucrat, I call a Beetlecrat. The kind of beetles that crawl on dung.
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99LeCouch
Well-known member
Dual arc fault/ground fault outlets aren't that much more than a plain GFCI. For outlets under sinks powering dishwashers and disposal units, they make sense to me. Might as well offer the most protection to an item that can fail in both ways.
Negen
Well-known member
Most arc fault outlets won't work with higher amp motors. Moen disposals are an example. Their motors are instant on style spinning at their maximum amp draw as soon as the unit is turned on. Unlike other brands where they ramp up to higher amp draw. This causes the arc fault outlets to trip. Fridges,freezers,motors are all things that can trip arc fault outlets.
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