T12 LED lighting in 8'

[skipnay]

I have the high output T12 bulbs. They are GE HO F96T12 CW HO CT for cold temperature use cool white. I have thought about going to LED's but really can't justify it yet. Has anyone done it? Was it worth it? I have had my lights in a 24x40 garage. I have 6 of the twin 8' lamps up. I haven't blown a bulb yet but have been through 2 ballist that we just installed.

My biggest problem is our local electrical store. I have walked in twice getting screwed on stuff that I could get at Lowe's for a lot less. I bought 60' feet of 6 gauge wire for a tig welder. Guy told me the price was the same if not cheaper then Lowe's. Needless to say he charged me almost 1.7 times the amount on that and about $10 more for each plug at each end. It's hard to go back there and trust anything anyone says. BTW my company buys a lot of product from them and he gave me the employee discount. Hate to see it if no discount

 

[padstack]

I have the high output T12 bulbs. They are GE HO F96T12 CW HO CT for cold temperature use cool white. I have thought about going to LED's but really can't justify it yet. Has anyone done it? Was it worth it? I have had my lights in a 24x40 garage. I have 6 of the twin 8' lamps up. I haven't blown a bulb yet but have been through 2 ballist that we just installed.

My biggest problem is our local electrical store. I have walked in twice getting screwed on stuff that I could get at Lowe's for a lot less. I bought 60' feet of 6 gauge wire for a tig welder. Guy told me the price was the same if not cheaper then Lowe's. Needless to say he charged me almost 1.7 times the amount on that and about $10 more for each plug at each end. It's hard to go back there and trust anything anyone says. BTW my company buys a lot of product from them and he gave me the employee discount. Hate to see it if no discount

I don't know of anyone doing 8' LED tubes - ballast or direct wire. Not trying to thread ****, just an FYI.

 

[skipnay]

I don't know of anyone doing 8' LED tubes - ballast or direct wire. Not trying to thread ****, just an FYI.

What about these?



http://www.ledlight.com/led-tube-lighting.aspx

 

[n8n]

Friend of mine's shop had 8' T12 fixtures, through a deal with PEPCO they got retrofitted with LED. The tubes used were 4' long. Unfortunately I didn't swing by during the installation so I have no idea of mfgr. but they are much brighter than the old fluorescents and hopefully will pay off in lower energy bills. But the PEPCO contractor didn't use 8' tubes for whatever reason.

 

[padstack]

What about these?



http://www.ledlight.com/led-tube-lighting.aspx

Just said I wasn't aware, didn't say they didn't exist!

 

[skipnay]

Just said I wasn't aware, didn't say they didn't exist!

No I was asking you not trying to say they didn't make any...

 

['71 VW 1302]

At my work I replaced all the 8' T12 lamps with 4' T8 lamps a few years ago. I did 183 fixtures. At the time there was an incentive from the local POCO to do it. I can't recall the brand, but the local distributor provided me a kit that allowed me to easily convert the 8' fixtures to 4'. I think I did 12 sections a night for 3 or so week, all on a scaffold on wheels. The fixtures are at 14' from the shop floor.

It's been 4 years since I've replaced a lamp or a ballast in the shop. I've replaced a few lamps in the office area, all of which came out of the same box originally. I've never experienced it before or since, but I think I really did get a bad batch of 4' T8 lamps.

We've got more and better light than we ever did in our 15,000 sq. ft. shop. Our out of pocket cost for mat'l and labour after the cashback from the POCO was under $10K. In 4 years, that's been paid back in energy savings.

When the T8 lamps begin to fail, I plan to replace them on an ongoing basis with a plug and play LED substitute. CREE makes a lamp that is compatible with the electronic ballast.

I can't control the price of energy, but I can do a lot to limit my use of it.

 

[B&H]

Well this is a timely thread. I am doing the exact same conversion right now and just received two 8' LED bulbs to replace two 8' T12HO bulbs in one fixture. If they worked out, I was going to do the whole shop. I got them from Ledlight.com. Things aren't going well.

First, they didn't come with wiring instructions, so I called and they don't seem to have very good technical support. I don't want to go into all of the details just yet because I have to give them a chance to make things right, but I was able to delete the ballast and wire the fixture accordingly. Neither bulb worked. I will try to get some better support tomorrow.

As for now, the bulbs they supplied were frosted and seemed to be well made, albeit they are from China. The direct fit and ballast delete seems like a good concept. I will update this thread when I find out what's going on.

 

[skipnay]

Well this is a timely thread. I am doing the exact same conversion right now and just received two 8' LED bulbs to replace two 8' T12HO bulbs in one fixture. If they worked out, I was going to do the whole shop. I got them from Ledlight.com. Things aren't going well.

First, they didn't come with wiring instructions, so I called and they don't seem to have very good technical support. I don't want to go into all of the details just yet because I have to give them a chance to make things right, but I was able to delete the ballast and wire the fixture accordingly. Neither bulb worked. I will try to get some better support tomorrow.

As for now, the bulbs they supplied were frosted and seemed to be well made, albeit they are from China. The direct fit and ballast delete seems like a good concept. I will update this thread when I find out what's going on.

Thank you very much

 

[B&H]

And here's what's going on. When installing these tubes, the ballast must be removed.

One entire end of the fixture is dead, meaning the wiring to the tombstones must be cut.
It doesn't matter which end.

On the other end, you attach one wire from each tombstone to the load, and the other wire from each tombstone to the neutral. It doesn't matter which.

And the item that was holding me up was polarity - the tubes are polar sensitive. If you remove the ballast and wire the fixture as I described and the bulb doesn't light, then remove the bulb and swap it end to end. In my case, both bulbs happened to just be installed backwards. I swapped them end to end and wa-la all better!

I have 13' high ceilings and used the 40w 4400 lumen led tubes. The light is much better than the T12HO's that they're replacing. Not sure that the 4400's would be good in a low ceiling height application because the line-of-site may cause the light to be TOO bright.

Ledlight could have and should have provided clear instructions with the bulbs.

 

[skipnay]

And here's what's going on. When installing these tubes, the ballast must be removed.

One entire end of the fixture is dead, meaning the wiring to the tombstones must be cut.
It doesn't matter which end.

On the other end, you attach one wire from each tombstone to the load, and the other wire from each tombstone to the neutral. It doesn't matter which.

And the item that was holding me up was polarity - the tubes are polar sensitive. If you remove the ballast and wire the fixture as I described and the bulb doesn't light, then remove the bulb and swap it end to end. In my case, both bulbs happened to just be installed backwards. I swapped them end to end and wa-la all better!

I have 13' high ceilings and used the 40w 4400 lumen led tubes. The light is much better than the T12HO's that they're replacing. Not sure that the 4400's would be good in a low ceiling height application because the line-of-site may cause the light to be TOO bright.

Ledlight could have and should have provided clear instructions with the bulbs.

Are you still liking what you got? Got any pictures? I have two more ballast out and instead of buying ballast I'm thinking LED but hate to see it look different then the other lights....

 

[mustangmike6996]

I think a bunch of guys from my car club just went in on a large LED conversion kit purchase from china as well. I wonder if its the same company.

 

[B&H]

Are you still liking what you got? Got any pictures? I have two more ballast out and instead of buying ballast I'm thinking LED but hate to see it look different then the other lights....

100% satisfied with the lights! Instant on, clean, crisp light (if those are suitable adjectives to describe lighting), plenty bright but not obnoxious. I will post some pictures in a day or 2.

Once I finish 2 more outdoor wall packs and an area light in the spring I can start seeing how much of a savings there is on the entire project. The power company's predictions were about 2-3 years at their pricing for break-even. Realistically, even as a DIY project, if I could break-even at 5 years I would be happy. Going through their calculations, I could see several errors that would make the payback period seem shorter, which is really par for the course.

One other installation note is that the polarity on these particular tubes can be identified by a sticker near one end. Sticker side goes toward the live tombstone.

 

[B&H]

Lighting has to be one of the hardest things to show in pictures. Nothing like seeing in person as it is very subjective. I have had T12HO, T5HO, T8, and now 4' Philips Instafits in the T8 fixtures, T12 LED tubes, outdoor LED wall packs replacing MH, LED "BR30" style flood lights and in each case when I upgraded to LED, I only bought enough of each style to get an idea of whether I liked the light or not. The only mistake I made was using the 4100 Philips 4' Instafits in low ceiling or low wall areas because the light was too bright, so I had to get some 3500's in those areas.

8' LED tubes from LEDLIGHT.com:



The T8 fixture on the wall that is off was too bright with the 4100 Instafits, so it got 3500's:



The fixture closest to the camera is a T8 fixture with 4100 LED Instafits. The other fixtures are T5HO, and the ceiling height is 13'-14'. In this side of the shop, I had 9 T5HO fixtures. The one I converted to LED is the security light, which doesn't have a switch and is on 24/7, hence the reason for converting. This summer I will convert the rest to LED and repurpose the T5HO's to a pole barn that I have at home that has T12's:

 

[skipnay]

Bringing this back up because I want to know what you guys think of the 4' LED's? I'm tired of replacing ballast all the time. This will be the 9-10 ballast I replaced and I'm only getting a 6 month warranty out of them and can't stand being on a ladder 14' high. So I need to do something....

 

[cybrdyke]

Bringing this back up because I want to know what you guys think of the 4' LED's? I'm tired of replacing ballast all the time. This will be the 9-10 ballast I replaced and I'm only getting a 6 month warranty out of them and can't stand being on a ladder 14' high. So I need to do something....

I'll try to help you. Why are you having such trouble with ballasts? Are they old? Are they T12 or T8 ballasts?
CD

 

[skipnay]

I'll try to help you. Why are you having such trouble with ballasts? Are they old? Are they T12 or T8 ballasts?
CD

I have 2 that are still originals. The rest have been replaced. Either I or my friend that is a certified electrician have replaced the others. We have discussed it numerous times and the only thing he can come up with is that I am having the worse luck possible. It's kinda funny because I also told him I don't turn them on then turn them off. I usually keep them on for probably 5 minutes minimal. I mean once and a while I may turn them on then 30 seconds later turn them off but I bet that is less then 3 times a year.

I can use the garage in June and not go back in until august. But I use the garage about every 2 or 3 days during the winter with lights being on at least 8 hours a day.

T12 ballast
Also bought new ones from the electric store that are still in plastic. They seem to have a rotating stock because the box is always different.

 

[cybrdyke]

I have 2 that are still originals. The rest have been replaced. Either I or my friend that is a certified electrician have replaced the others. We have discussed it numerous times and the only thing he can come up with is that I am having the worse luck possible. It's kinda funny because I also told him I don't turn them on then turn them off. I usually keep them on for probably 5 minutes minimal. I mean once and a while I may turn them on then 30 seconds later turn them off but I bet that is less then 3 times a year.

I can use the garage in June and not go back in until august. But I use the garage about every 2 or 3 days during the winter with lights being on at least 8 hours a day.

T12 ballast
Also bought new ones from the electric store that are still in plastic. They seem to have a rotating stock because the box is always different.

OK, well, you dont use the space enough to save enough energy dollars to justify an upgrade. So, lets look at your options based on the pain in the **** factor of changing ballasts...
Let's get you out of the T12 ballasts.
You have 3 choices.
1) replace the T12 ballasts with T8 ballasts and install ballast-ready LED tubes. The ballast swap is simple and you wont need to change sockets. You'll have a 5 year warranty on the new ballasts and you will have your choice of lamp colors. You're looking at about $11 on the ballast and $10 on the LED
tube.
2) remove all the T12 ballasts and install a ballast-bypass LED tube. There will be some fixture re-wiring (about the same labor as above ballast swap), but you wont need to change sockets. You can expect to pay about $15-20 per tube.
3) New fixtures. The cost of LED fixtures has come down dramatically. Beware that there are crappy ones out there at the discount stores and big boxes, but you can find them from legit manufacturers for pretty reasonable prices these days.
Do any of these options interest you?
CD

 

[skipnay]

OK, well, you dont use the space enough to save enough energy dollars to justify an upgrade. So, lets look at your options based on the pain in the **** factor of changing ballasts...
Let's get you out of the T12 ballasts.
You have 3 choices.
1) replace the T12 ballasts with T8 ballasts and install ballast-ready LED tubes. The ballast swap is simple and you wont need to change sockets. You'll have a 5 year warranty on the new ballasts and you will have your choice of lamp colors. You're looking at about $11 on the ballast and $10 on the LED
tube.
2) remove all the T12 ballasts and install a ballast-bypass LED tube. There will be some fixture re-wiring (about the same labor as above ballast swap), but you wont need to change sockets. You can expect to pay about $15-20 per tube.
3) New fixtures. The cost of LED fixtures has come down dramatically. Beware that there are crappy ones out there at the discount stores and big boxes, but you can find them from legit manufacturers for pretty reasonable prices these days.
Do any of these options interest you?
CD

The only problem with LED's seem they are more of a direct light. Say more of a direct beam instead of scattered. Though being 14' ceilings I don't think it will hurt me near as much as if I had 8' ceilings. I also need it to be brighter or same brightness as the T12 HO 6500K I have now.

P.S. I made a mistake. The new ballast are 5 year warranty and they did replace the ones that needed to be replaced. Just a pain to be in garage turn lights on and then nothing out of 1 or 2 of the lights and yes it's a simple fix but a pain in the **** when no one here at the house is going to help me. SORRY NOW WHICH CHOICES??? Which LED bulb? I don't care if it is 4 foot just as long the lumens is the same or more.

 

[cybrdyke]

The only problem with LED's seem they are more of a direct light. Say more of a direct beam instead of scattered. Though being 14' ceilings I don't think it will hurt me near as much as if I had 8' ceilings. I also need it to be brighter or same brightness as the T12 HO 6500K I have now.

P.S. I made a mistake. The new ballast are 5 year warranty and they did replace the ones that needed to be replaced. Just a pain to be in garage turn lights on and then nothing out of 1 or 2 of the lights and yes it's a simple fix but a pain in the **** when no one here at the house is going to help me. SORRY NOW WHICH CHOICES??? Which LED bulb? I don't care if it is 4 foot just as long the lumens is the same or more.

This changes everything. You have T12HO. Are they 4' or 8' ?
Regardless of your answer, you wont be able to retrofit the existing fixtures to LED tubes (at least not with anything legitimate). But there are still other options.
CD

 

[skipnay]

This changes everything. You have T12HO. Are they 4' or 8' ?
Regardless of your answer, you wont be able to retrofit the existing fixtures to LED tubes (at least not with anything legitimate). But there are still other options.
CD

Twin 8'. I don't mind going to 4 - 4'er's.

They are suppose to be good commercial lights. I do notice they don't bend very easy like the cheap ones I bought from Lowe's.

 

[cybrdyke]

So, lets see what you've got...
2 F96T12HO/ES use 205 watts per fixture. They start off delivering 7650 (each) low quality lumens @60 CRI, but quickly fade down to 6230 lumens (each) and then, over time down to 4000 lumens before they die. But, you dont get to see all of those lumens. Depending on the fixture you have, you'll lose about 30% of them in the fixture. So, you get 5355 lumens per lamp when new. That's 10,700 delivered lumens per fixture. That comes out to 51 lumens per watt.
To equate that with LED tubes, you'd need 2 5000 lumen tubes, and I haven't seen them. Plus, seeing as how you have HO sockets, you probably couldn't get any of them to fit anyway. There might be someone who makes them, but I've never seen them from any legitimate manufacturer.
I've also never seen a T12HO tandem kit, which is what changes the fixture from 2 x 8' into 4 x 4'. Not saying that they dont exist, but I cant imagine why anyone would do this.
So...your options.
1) Retrofit the T12HO to T8HO. Swap ballasts, easy enough to do, but you'll only save about 20 watts per fixture, so it's hardly worth it.
2) Swap the fixture out to a new LED strip fixture. These days, you can get over 6000 lumens out of a 4' fixture. It's not a big box el-cheapo, but they're not as bad as you might think. With a 4' frame, you can space them better than the 8' fixtures. AND, you'd only be consuming around 60 watts, 70% less than you are using now. Over 100 lumens per watt...double what you currently use.
CD

 

[skipnay]

Where do you recommend getting the 4 footers at? Right now these 6 lights are on one breaker. If I'm going to do the 4 footers I would like to move it up to 8 or 10.

 

[cybrdyke]

http://techbrite.com/pdf/9856e494-83f2-45eb-89a9-c31cac22fd8b.pdf
is one company that makes them.

 

[akdiesel]

skipnay

I had the same 8' dual T12 bulbs. There were 9 in my shop set at a row of three in a 40' x 60' open shop. The noise and bulb replacement was getting out of hand.
I ended up replacing each 8' light fixture with Metelux Comercial grade 4' led hard wire light fixture from Lowes. They are approx $70 a piece.
The light is brighter and a more natural light. The light fixtures are 4000 lumens each.
As a 4' fixture it does allow me to place them more evenly through out the shop to help eliminate shadows from before.
I have about 75% changed out and simply saving to finish it up.
They are a bit more expensive but well worth it to me.

 

[pattenp]

Here's some LED replacement lamps for a F96T12HO. A bit pricey at $50+ per lamp.

https://www.eledlights.com/led-lamp...ot-led-tube-high-lumen-r17d.html#.VoPv-BUrJaU

 

[cybrdyke]

Here's some LED replacement lamps for a F96T12HO. A bit pricey at $50+ per lamp.

https://www.eledlights.com/led-lamp...ot-led-tube-high-lumen-r17d.html#.VoPv-BUrJaU

Thanks for finding that. I figured someone probably made them.

I love (sarcasm) these internet sites...
They dont even tell you the manufacturer who makes the thing.
The color that they offer is somewhere between 5500k and 6500k
It's a 5000+ lumen lamp with a clear lens. In the industry, that's called a "glare bomb".
There's a 3 year warranty from a website that wont be around in another 6 months. But, hey..they make one and it's an option. They probably sell a bunch of them.
CD

 

[skipnay]

Thanks for finding that. I figured someone probably made them.

I love (sarcasm) these internet sites...
They dont even tell you the manufacturer who makes the thing.
The color that they offer is somewhere between 5500k and 6500k
It's a 5000+ lumen lamp with a clear lens. In the industry, that's called a "glare bomb".
There's a 3 year warranty from a website that wont be around in another 6 months. But, hey..they make one and it's an option. They probably sell a bunch of them.
CD

Which light bulbs would you use?

The lights that are parallel are the normal ones that have always been there. I got some extra ones to go perpendicular between the lights to help me get some more light in the shop. I have a 40 breaker panel box and I think they used 12 spaces total. That's for upstairs and down stairs.

 

[carsdwl11]

I too have been looking for options. I have 15 t12 8ft fixtures and some of them wont light due to what I think is bad ballast. Most of these are around 10yrs old but a few are less than 1 yr.

Do you think the LED bulbs with built in drivers are any better than a t8 conversion ?

Here are some found....
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00OMAIG2S/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[Junkman]

In reading this thread, I noticed a few people mention energy savings with the LED lamps using the ballast. Through an energy conservation program that was being promoted by our utility company, I had all the fixtures done at my wife's store. The utility company contractor replaced all the ballasts in the fixtures with "newer" type of ballasts, even though the fixtures were only 3 years old, and installed LED tubes throughout the store. The utility claimed that the payback would be about 18 months based on our 30% participation costs. We are about 9 months into the use of the LED lighting, and it is definitely brighter, however, we have yet to see any savings. I contacted the utility company about this, and they said that since we already had energy saving ballasts, there would be no savings in the current used. The ballast is what is using all the energy, not the bulbs. They further said that if the estimator were made aware of the age of the fixtures, they wouldn't have made that prediction of savings. I have to wait till the end of the time period where they predicted a savings, and then I can ask for a refund of the 30% participation. The only LED's that save energy, are those that do not require a ballast. I don't know why they don't use the direct wire LED bulbs, but it is my guess that it might be the "danger" of the higher current injuring a person while removing or installing a bulb.

 

[cybrdyke]

In reading this thread, I noticed a few people mention energy savings with the LED lamps using the ballast. Through an energy conservation program that was being promoted by our utility company, I had all the fixtures done at my wife's store. The utility company contractor replaced all the ballasts in the fixtures with "newer" type of ballasts, even though the fixtures were only 3 years old, and installed LED tubes throughout the store. The utility claimed that the payback would be about 18 months based on our 30% participation costs. We are about 9 months into the use of the LED lighting, and it is definitely brighter, however, we have yet to see any savings. I contacted the utility company about this, and they said that since we already had energy saving ballasts, there would be no savings in the current used. The ballast is what is using all the energy, not the bulbs. They further said that if the estimator were made aware of the age of the fixtures, they wouldn't have made that prediction of savings. I have to wait till the end of the time period where they predicted a savings, and then I can ask for a refund of the 30% participation. The only LED's that save energy, are those that do not require a ballast. I don't know why they don't use the direct wire LED bulbs, but it is my guess that it might be the "danger" of the higher current injuring a person while removing or installing a bulb.

If you're talking about 4' T8 or T12 lamps, then this is absolutely, categorically, 150 thousand percent false. Not a shred of truth in any of it.
Now, if you have a different kind of lamp, let us know.
CD

 

[D.J.]

Whats everyones feelings on the Voltek 4 foot led cylinder lights that say 1200 lumens on them for 19.99 each at Rural King around here?

 

[cg81]

Where can an individual purchase the tech Brite led strip fixture? Any idea about what they cost?

 

[Jazz1]

I switched garage lighting from 4 x 8' T12s to 4 x 8' T5s couple months ago. My T12s were old and tired and I wanted a significant increase in light. The annoying hum of the old T12s is gone!! I purchased lighting at electrical supplier where a informed salesperson recommended product type and options.
The difference in light is considerable.

 

[cybrdyke]

Where can an individual purchase the tech Brite led strip fixture? Any idea about what they cost?

Stop in your local electrical supply house and ask.
Or you can contact them www.techbrite.com and ask where to buy them.
You're looking at less than $150 for that fixture.
CD