T12 vs. T8 vs. T5 vs. LED Analysis

[LutzTD]

most likely future is houses and garages will be wired for dc lights with a central control, so even the edison socket may be doomed

 

[cybrdyke]

It seems to me that a lot of us are pulling this whole " 100 lumens per sq. ft." idea from online sources and not considering what is done in one guys garage. That level of lighting results in about 1000 lux which is what is recommended for hospital operating rooms. 1000 lux is also close to being outdoors on an overcast day. Is that much light needed on every sq. ft. of a garage?

From what I've seen, a few years back, some guy copied an article and posted it on this forum stating something about targeting 100 lumens / sq ft. as a rule of thumb. Since then, it has somehow become gospel.
I can assure you that it's Bullshnitt. It doesn't even make any sense if you think about it. Unfortunately, there are lots of folks who have followed this non-sensical guideline.

My experience with Costco LEDs is that you don't need 100 lumens per SF. Mine is half that (43 lumens/SF) and is bright as daylight.

Roger that. Lumens / square foot is a nonsense guideline.
Want proof? Take any old light bulb...doesn't matter how many lumens. Mount it on an 8' ceiling. Note how bright it is. Now mount the same light bulb on a 30' ceiling (same floor space). Not as bright now, is it? Same lumens...same square footage.

Yup. I gave up pointing that out a year or so ago.

I know....but we can only hope.....

 

[BruceMc]

Not as bright now, is it? Same lumens...same square footage.

Unless you're talking a highly coherent light source (think laser), it's not the same square footage. You are also lighting ~4x as much vertical wall space. Most guides I have seen either take ceiling height into consideration, or assume a common, standard height.

 

[Jason280]

another consideration for the bottom dollar. If you have the space and dont mind troffer lights, they can be had for pennies on the dollar on the used market. I bought 37 4 bulb t5ho fixtures with diffusers for $250. I few of the diffusers and frames were broken during transit, but I got all of the bulbs as well. My net was 35 complete assemblies and 2 with no covers. Thats $6.75 each. and with a wipe down they are brand new........

This is kind of my dilemma. I have 10 of these lights that were given to me, came out of an Economy rental car building. I just finished a 24x32' build with 10-12' ceilings, and cant decide whether to use them or not. On one hand they were free, but the other, i dont want to run into cold start issues, or dead/dying ballasts, etc. I have plenty of the bulbs, just not sure what to do.

 

[Platonic Solid]

A. We're all free to ignorantly dismiss over 100 years of research in this area, or not. If your happy with your setup, that's great. That doesn't mean it's right for everyone.

B. Without defining your age and visual acuity, stating "I have two 60W bulbs lighting 1,000 sq ft and it's bright as daylight" is meaningless.
General Age to Footcandle basics for hobbies:
<25 yrs = 50fc
25-65 yrs = 100fc
>65 yrs = 200fc

C. Stating that any indoor lighting is "bright as daylight" is meaningless. Bright sunlight is 110,000 lux. Your indoor lighting is no where near that bright nor would you want it to be.

 

[4 FN 27]

LED all the way...I love mine. Did the entire build inside and out with LEDS except for the Utility Room and Bathroom. Utility room has T-8's and the bathroom has a restored warehouse fixture.

 

[cybrdyke]

Unless you're talking a highly coherent light source (think laser), it's not the same square footage. You are also lighting ~4x as much vertical wall space. Most guides I have seen either take ceiling height into consideration, or assume a common, standard height.

It was an example for those folks in this forum that dont understand lighting and use a rule of thumb like lumens per square foot. Not intended to start a debate on photometrics.
CD

 

[AndyCBR]

I would consider reliability in your analysis also. It's certainly harder to quantify but relevant.

A cheap LED fixture regardless of rating is likely to fail early (either driver or LED).

Likewise, a cheap T8 fixture with a cheap ballast may not last 5 years.

I like the new LED technology but the downside in my opinion is that it is so new it is almost guaranteed to be manufactured who knows where with who knows what quality standards.

To me current T8 systems are the sweet spot between performance, reliability, and cost.

T5HO are great too but they really don't work for in low ceiling applications.

 

[BruceMc]

It was an example for those folks in this forum that dont understand lighting and use a rule of thumb like lumens per square foot. Not intended to start a debate on photometrics.
CD

Since people are coming here for advice and to up their knowledge, seems like it would be doing a better service to explain that lumens at the source don't directly translate into lumens at the surface, and why, rather than calling it BS.

 

[cybrdyke]

Since people are coming here for advice and to up their knowledge, seems like it would be doing a better service to explain that lumens at the source don't directly translate into lumens at the surface, and why, rather than calling it BS.

We're talking garages here, not hospitals.
I think my example will make sense to most of the forum members. If you want to further complicate things...post on...

CD

 

[Platonic Solid]

LED all the way...I love mine. Did the entire build inside and out with LEDS except for the Utility Room and Bathroom. Utility room has T-8's and the bathroom has a restored warehouse fixture.

Welcome 4 FN 27. Please define size of space LxWxH, Fixture Qty., and link to actual fixture used.

 

[LutzTD]

This is kind of my dilemma. I have 10 of these lights that were given to me, came out of an Economy rental car building. I just finished a 24x32' build with 10-12' ceilings, and cant decide whether to use them or not. On one hand they were free, but the other, i dont want to run into cold start issues, or dead/dying ballasts, etc. I have plenty of the bulbs, just not sure what to do.

for me, I know Im handy and can swap these out later, and that is part of my decision. I also figured once the fixtures are up, if a ballast goes then LED replacement bulbs are going to be similar in cost as a ballast and 4 t5 bulbs, so I would switch that fixture to LED. I would do it by starting with my middle 3 used for everyday lighting, if its an outside one that goes out Ill steal the ballast from the one I want to change to LED and then do it in the order I chose. This will let the LED tech mature while I still have a solution for lights. Also the t5ho work for me as Im mounting them at 14ft height. m hoping the LED brightness will go up over time so the t5ho to LED wont be so much a difference. If it goes long enough ill swap in 12vdc LED, set up a couple car batteries and a solar cell and light my garage for free.

 

[4 FN 27]

Welcome 4 FN 27. Please define size of space LxWxH, Fixture Qty., and link to actual fixture used.

80 x 72 5 rows of 5 fixtures in the storage area. The Car Shop and Machine Shop areas are 40 x 40 and each have 9 fixtures. I'll have to get the link in the morning. The hight of the 3 areas is 16 clear

 

[4 FN 27]

Link to fixture: http://www.barronltg.com/resources/01_tracelite_literature/01_web-specs/tled528a.pdf

I have the Model # TLED528A-200

 

[Platonic Solid]

80 x 72 5 rows of 5 fixtures in the storage area. The Car Shop and Machine Shop areas are 40 x 40 and each have 9 fixtures. I'll have to get the link in the morning. The hight of the 3 areas is 16 clear

Wow, almost 9000 sq ft! That's some serious square footage you got there . There aren't many here who have a full compliment of LED fixtures like you do. From a few quick mock ups, you have 65fc avg in the storage area and 70fc avg in the shop areas. Lumen output of the fixtures is right where it should be for your ceiling height. Well done.

 

[4 FN 27]

Wow, almost 9000 sq ft! That's some serious square footage you got there . There aren't many here who have a full compliment of LED fixtures like you do. From a few quick mock ups, you have 65fc avg in the storage area and 70fc avg in the shop areas. Lumen output of the fixtures is right where it should be for your ceiling height. Well done.

Thank you...I am a firm believer there can never be too bright after all they make dimmer switches!!!

The building was a life time dream. Since I was 18 years old I have always had a shop of at least 6400+ square feet but never in my backyard. In 2007 I found the perfect property after a 25 year search. 28 Acres 3.5 miles form everything and 3.5 miles from nothing. Built the house in 2009 and in August 2014 I pulled the trigger on the shop.

80 x 112 with a 26 x 56 Office/Vault/Utility addition off to the side. 480 3-Phase Power (had to pay to have the line ran a 1/2 mile to the property), Geothermal Heat and AC.

Now I can put everything under 1 roof and walk out the backdoor of the house and play...hope to be moving my Mill, Lathe, Press Brake, Air Compressor and Welders in Nov 27th. The Hoist is installed and I am on the hunt for a High Def Plasma or Water Jet.

 

[Pwrgeek]

most likely future is houses and garages will be wired for dc lights with a central control, so even the edison socket may be doomed

With an install base in the billions I would find it very unlikely that the Edison socket ever goes obsolete.