T8 Fixtures; With Or Without Deflectors

[D45]

Do the shop lights with the reflectors work that much better and are they worth the price?


$28.67 (T8, dual bulb, 4' long)
Lithonia Lighting 2-Light White Electronic Channel Fluorescent Strip Light-C 2 32 120 GESB - The Home Depot



$39.97 (T8, dual bulb, 4' long.........with reflector)
Lithonia Lighting 2-Light Flush-Mount White Industrial Fluorescent Light-L 2 32 120 GESB - The Home Depot


Do painted reflectors work that well? Are they really worth the additional money?

 

[Kevin C]

http://www.visual-3d.com/tools/photometricviewer/default.aspx?id=15168

No reflector

http://www.visual-3d.com/tools/photometricViewer/default.aspx?id=14783

With reflector

One way to get an idea is to go to the manf web site and look at the photometric data for each light.

The reflector on the second light is pretty wide and looks to be designed for a typical shop. Mostly, it contains the side light at the extreme angles.

Directly under the light you will get about 40% more lumens with the reflector and at an angle of 60 deg about 20% better light output. The output drops off after 70 degrees on the reflector lamp and 80 degrees on the non reflector lamp.

I attached snips of each lamps data sheet.

I would go with the reflector version, the improvements are significant.

 

[D45]

So you think the added cost of $11 per fixture would be worth it?

I am talking about just the white painted reflector, I will not be spending a ton for the chrome lined reflectors

 

[D45]

How do I determine how many fixtures to get?

My shop currently has old T12 fixtures

I have the following lights in my shop:
(7) of the 4' long, 2 bulbs fixtures
(6) of the 4' long, 1 bulbs fixtures

The dual bulb fixtures are running down the middle of the shops ceilings, spaced every other ceiling beam

The single bulb fixtures are running near the wall corners, evenly spaced out

 

[Showkey]

YES................It puts 40% more lumens where you can use it. Sorta like insulation keeps the heat in where you need it.......reflectors keeps the light where you need it.

Light meter on your smart phone is a great way to actually measure the difference.

 

[D45]

Shop area is about 65' x 18'

Ceiling joist are about 110" tall

 

[D45]

Closer view

 

[Kevin C]

Re: T8 Fixtures; With Or Without Reflectors

So you think the added cost of $11 per fixture would be worth it?

I am talking about just the white painted reflector, I will not be spending a ton for the chrome lined reflectors

The data sheets I attached and my summary are based on the painted reflectors. As a wag, you get 30-40% more usable light for the same electricity cost or you would need 30% less fixtures to get the same lighting level for about a 25% cost increase. Seems hard to justify not using them.

I would consider buying a couple of samples for testing to see how well you like it before you fit your whole shop.

 

[cybrdyke]

Depends on your ceilings and walls. By your description, it sounds like you have open ceilings. Is that right? If so, then reflectors will help capture and re-direct any light from the tubes that goes upward and sideways. If you have white ceilings and walls, you dont need reflectors.
CD

 

[D45]

Open ceilings, correct

No drywall

One wall is insulated with metal ribbed roofing sheets, galvume

The front and back garage doors a double walled insulated, white

The common wall is a medium tinted red, that used to be the outside wall of the house, before the shop was added on

 

[D45]

These are only $22.97!!

No reflectors, but cheap!

http://www.menards.com/main/p-2259114-c-7495.htm

I can't seem to find 4' long, dual bulb, shop lights at Menards with reflectors

 

[Showkey]

Depends on your ceilings and walls. By your description, it sounds like you have open ceilings. Is that right? If so, then reflectors will help capture and re-direct any light from the tubes that goes upward and sideways. If you have white ceilings and walls, you dont need reflectors.
CD

NOT every one believes the white ceiling vs reflector theory.......especially if you bother measure the light actually reaching the desired area. Ceiling and walls will reflect some light but not at the same level as built in reflectors close to the bulb.

These are only $22.97!!

No reflectors, but cheap!

http://www.menards.com/main/p-2259114-c-7495.htm

I can't seem to find 4' long, dual bulb, shop lights at Menards with reflectors

These have pullswitch, cords and reflectors, simple modification if cords cause problem. Pull chains are not all bad..........turn off lesser used lights in certain areas.

http://www.menards.com/main/lightin...rformance-titanium-light/p-1385104-c-7495.htm

They often go on sale for about $19-$25 depending on location and timing.

 

[chrgdrt]

Try these, $14.97.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lithonia...l-Shop-Light-1233-RE/202994372#specifications

 

[cybrdyke]

NOT every one believes the white ceiling vs reflector theory.......especially if you bother measure the light actually reaching the desired area. Ceiling and walls will reflect some light but not at the same level as built in reflectors close to the bulb.

Umm...it's not my theory, it's commonly known fact. It's called photometrics. And it's common practice in lighting design. It's learned on the first day of class. White acoustical tile is 80-90% reflective, white walls are 50-70% reflective and floors are 20-50% reflective. All these surfaces are accouned for in lighting design and they serve as a giant reflector. Having horizontal AND vertical surfaces lit reduces shadows, contrast and adds visual comfort.
White painted reflectors are 90-95% reflective. All the reflector does is focus the light into a tighter spot. That's why you get higher readings directly underneath the fixture. (I have bothered to measure...thousands of times). The problem is that you have now darkened the ceiling and walls, making the total lighting application contrasty and uncomfortable.
The reason that I agree with reflectors on this particular project is specifically because there is no reflective ceiling or wall.
Reflectored strip fixtures are called "industrials" in the lighting industry. The reason for the name is that they were designed for use in industry, like factories and production lines. These places normally have very high ceilings and no walls or reflective surfaces. "Industrials" were made to hang from chain and focus the light onto work surfaces, otherwise the light would just go out to nowhere.
CD

 

[Kevin C]

All the reflector does is focus the light into a tighter spot. That's why you get higher readings directly underneath the fixture. (I have bothered to measure...thousands of times).
CD

"All the reflectors do"... Making what the reflectors do seem unimportant is a disservice, they are the most effective method of directing the light to where its needed.

Sure you can paint the ceilings and get good reflectivity, but since they are not shaped to direct light, actual efficiency will always be significantly less.

Here is my tip, direct the light efficiently to the work surface. If you have light colored floors wall and ceilings whats reflected off the floors now lights up the area above the lights and your work area is a lot brighter.

With the reflector, 40% more light is hitting the floor at an angle that will reflect upwards toward the ceiling.

This is what I did in my own shop. I have 10' ceilings, and yes at the very tops of the wall, it is darker, and no its not cave like or distracting; in fact the room feels bright open and pleasant.

 

[cybrdyke]

"All the reflectors do"... Making what the reflectors do seem unimportant is a disservice, they are the most effective method of directing the light to where its needed.

I know quite well all about reflectors and their place and purpose. They focus light. That's their job and they do it well. They are important when used in their specific place. Happy?
They are unnecessary in a garage with 9-10 foot white ceilings and light colored walls.
To say that industrial fixtures (reflectored) make the lighting better in a space like this is just foolish. All I keep hearing is that there is more light under the fixture. Well, duh. And that makes less light in spaces that aren't under the fixture, which makes the space contrasty and sucky. And the notion that floor reflection makes up for it is laughable.
Industrials make up only a very small percentage of luminaire sales. If they were the great thing that you make them out to be they'd be a top seller, no? I'm glad that you like yours and that your garage is lit to your liking.
CD

 

[Kevin C]

I know quite well all about reflectors and their place and purpose. They focus light. That's their job and they do it well. They are important when used in their specific place. Happy?
They are unnecessary in a garage with 9-10 foot white ceilings and light colored walls.
To say that industrial fixtures (reflectored) make the lighting better in a space like this is just foolish. All I keep hearing is that there is more light under the fixture. Well, duh. And that makes less light in spaces that aren't under the fixture, which makes the space contrasty and sucky. And the notion that floor reflection makes up for it is laughable.
Industrials make up only a very small percentage of luminaire sales. If they were the great thing that you make them out to be they'd be a top seller, no? I'm glad that you like yours and that your garage is lit to your liking.
CD

My foolish advice is go back and look at the photometric data sheets for the two lights. The reflectors on the lights we are talking about have a very, very broad pattern. Both lights have a light pattern of about a 130deg incl angle.

One piece of info that was added was the 9' mounting height. A bit low, but both lights have the same basic light pattern ( one just eliminates side light past 70 degs ). If you do a ray tracing of side light from fixtures, it never adds to the actual work area, it does illuminate the upper parts of the walls.

In my own shop (10' and flush mounted) I spaced the lights to so that the evenness is good ( I measured, less than you can tell with your eyes, but measurable with a meter.). With a 9' ceiling the OP might consider flush mount fixtures.

One last note, they are industrial fixtures and will have industrial ballasts, so EMI might be an issue. Also, they are not a highboy type fixture, and are not recommended for mounting above 16' (that explains the wide pattern). A reasonable case could be made to us both types, put the open fixtures at the edges and use the reflector version to fill in between. Another option is the reflector version can be ordered with an option that allows 8% of the light to go upward. You get better intensity in the work area with a similar evenness and some sidelight.

Personally, I'm not sold that any solution is a one size fits all. What we can do is have a decent conversation with the pros and cons of different approaches and relate our own personal experiences.


Also, if you could, try and keep the conversation on the professional side, terms like "foolish, duh, laughable, and sucky don't really add to conversation.

 

[cybrdyke]

My foolish advice is go back and look at the photometric data sheets for the two lights. The reflectors on the lights we are talking about have a very, very broad pattern. Both lights have a light pattern of about a 130deg incl angle.

One piece of info that was added was the 9' mounting height. A bit low, but both lights have the same basic light pattern ( one just eliminates side light past 70 degs ). If you do a ray tracing of side light from fixtures, it never adds to the actual work area, it does illuminate the upper parts of the walls.

In my own shop (10' and flush mounted) I spaced the lights to so that the evenness is good ( I measured, less than you can tell with your eyes, but measurable with a meter.). With a 9' ceiling the OP might consider flush mount fixtures.

One last note, they are industrial fixtures and will have industrial ballasts, so EMI might be an issue. Also, they are not a highboy type fixture, and are not recommended for mounting above 16' (that explains the wide pattern). A reasonable case could be made to us both types, put the open fixtures at the edges and use the reflector version to fill in between. Another option is the reflector version can be ordered with an option that allows 8% of the light to go upward. You get better intensity in the work area with a similar evenness and some sidelight.

Personally, I'm not sold that any solution is a one size fits all. What we can do is have a decent conversation with the pros and cons of different approaches and relate our own personal experiences.


Also, if you could, try and keep the conversation on the professional side, terms like "foolish, duh, laughable, and sucky don't really add to conversation.

I was courteous until I was told that basic lighting design is a theory, that my facts are a "disservice" and (not by you) I should "bother" to take measurements.
Sucky is a technical term...like crappy or cruddy. Just trying to keep some levity around here.
The charts of the two fixtures are not similar and tell the same story I'm trying to tell you. Industrials focus light to where it's needed at the expense of shadow, contrast and comfort. Strips soften shadows and even out the light. If you need more light on a specified task area, use industrials. Otherwise, For general illumination, use strips.
But industrials for general illumination in garages with white ceilings and walls in not necessary. I dont know how else to say it.
CD

 

[D45]

Try these, $14.97.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lithonia...l-Shop-Light-1233-RE/202994372#specifications

Those are not flush mounts and have a power cord

 

[ishiboo]

These are only $22.97!!

No reflectors, but cheap!

http://www.menards.com/main/p-2259114-c-7495.htm

I can't seem to find 4' long, dual bulb, shop lights at Menards with reflectors

I assume you mean surface mount. Of course the Menards "Performance Shop Light" is a 2-bulb reflector T8/T12 fixture that regularly goes on sale for under $10. Some people here have mounted them at/on the ceiling.

 

[D45]

Yes, surface mount is what I want

These are dirt cheap........compared to others that I have found
http://www.menards.com/main/p-2259114-c-7495.htm

However, if lamps with reflectors are that much better, I think I will pony up for the better fixtures. I will just have to watch for them to go on sale

 

[D45]

Ok..........I am really thinking about going LED

48" Fixture length
38 Watts
3700 Lumens
50,000 Hour life
4000K Cool white color temperature

http://www.costco.com/Feit-Electric-4 -LED-Shop-Light-2-pack.product.100155638.html These are on sale for $35ish

----------------------------------------------

4-foot LED Shoplight
40 watts
4,200 lumens
5000k color temp
105 lumens per watt
60 LED's per row (2 rows that simulate a tube)
Clear tube protector over each row.
50,000 hours rated
5' cord w ground
4.25 pounds
46.5" long, 6" wide, 2.75 deep

http://www.samsclub.com/sams/4ft-led-shoplight-shoplight-led/prod16460030.ip?navAction=

$36ish each locally

 

[KM1013]

If you do go that route let us know how they work. They look difficult to hardwire though.

 

[D45]

If you do go that route let us know how they work. They look difficult to hardwire though.

You do you figure that?

Just cut the plug and wire it up..... No?

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Cord and plug fixtures are generally also designed to be hung from chains. It has to do with heat generated by the ballast. I doubt you will find tat they are approved for hard mounting to a ceiling, and also, they are UL listed with the cord and plug and are not intended to be installed hardwired.

Buy some proper fixtures that are designed for permanent installations.

Charles

 

[Platonic Solid]

I wouldn't buy anything from a company (Lights of America) that was found guilty of falsifying claims of light output and lifetime of LED retrofit lamps by the FTC and facing class action lawsuits. Their products are now and always have been - ****. I doubt Feit is much better. Neither provides IES files to back up their published claims, thus it's all BS. You get what you pay for, and in this case you're paying next to nothing.

 

[D45]

LEDs don't produce heat......why would it matter if they are flush mounted or hung?

 

[Commendatore]

LEDs definitely produce heat!

 

[stikman56]

I have ONE fixture from The Light Edge, made locally, with 4 of those bulbs and reflectors that look like mirrors. It's all I need in my shop, it's fantastic. Go with them.