T8 LED Questions

[Jeff May]

I bought a 4 pack of these at Lowes.
Naturally the sales guy assured me that they would work in ANY older fixture.
Well, They don't...
My questions before I take them back.
Can the older fixtures be used for these. The tubes when right in the holders.
Do I need to replace the ballast or is there a way to wire these things up?
Thanks...

 

[CJ7VFR]

Did you have fluorescent bulbs in the fixtures before that worked? Was the room where you want to install these very cold?

The label on the new LED bulbs say they are for use with a ballast, so if your old fixtures have the ballasts still in them, and they worked before with fluorescent bulbs, then these new LED bulbs should work.

Jim

 

[cybrdyke]

Do I need to replace the ballast or is there a way to wire these things up?
Thanks...

They dont work with just "any" ballast. They'll work with most T8 Instant start ballasts. Even then, you might find some that are not compatible.

Check the ballast label. Does it say electronic? Does it say Instant Start? If it doesn't say instant start, what color are the lamp leads? There should be 2 blues and a red for a 2 lamp fixture.

If all that is correct and you still dont get them to light, then your ballast is not compatible with them and will have to be changed or bypassed.

Good luck,
CD

 

[Jeff May]

I would have to say the ballast in the fixture is at a minimum of 20 to 30 years old. I'm pretty certain they are not electronic.
Most are 4 tube 48" fixtures I kept over the years when I would remodel some place or find them in the trash...LOL... Yes, the old tubes will light up. Yes, it is cold out in the shop. When they come on they flicker until they warm up....
If I need new ballast any idea what I should be looking to purchase or where to find a wiring schematic to do this.

 

[pepi]

The following information was provided with the LED tubes just installed.

Using an LED that works with or without a ballast, will still need to be rewired. Makes no sense because the ballast is still a point of failure.

That said the easiest and most reliable method is to by-pass wire the ballast, in other words direct connect.

Photo shows three methods to wire the duel purposed LED tube, A1 B1,A2

B1 shows how to wire using the ballast...... not sure why anyone would do that.


A1 is the simplest direct connect (by-pass)

A1 explained:
The by-pass wiring is very simple

When cutting all wires, cut them where they come out from the ballast .

1 Cut the black and white wires, and let them hang.
2 Cut the red wire at the ballast, and attach it to the black wire hanging .
3 Now cut the blue wires, from the ballast (two), and attach both to the white wire hanging.

Done button it up install tubes ............

No need to remove the ballast

A2.... Had to come back and EDIT this right here, this diagram is to retrofit the T12 fixture, to use the T8 LED tube

 

[cybrdyke]

I would have to say the ballast in the fixture is at a minimum of 20 to 30 years old. I'm pretty certain they are not electronic.
Most are 4 tube 48" fixtures I kept over the years when I would remodel some place or find them in the trash...LOL... Yes, the old tubes will light up. Yes, it is cold out in the shop. When they come on they flicker until they warm up....
If I need new ballast any idea what I should be looking to purchase or where to find a wiring schematic to do this.

Jeff, if they're that old, they wont work with the new LED tube. They also wont work without a ballast. If you want to use them, you'll need a standard electronic instant start ballast, not the residential version. Lowes sells QTP2x32 by Sylvania, or you can run 4 tubes with a QTP4x32.
It would probably be easier and cheaper though, to return those tubes and pick up some tubes that will allow you to bypass the old ballast. It's really easy to do.
Get the double-end powered version if you have a choice. It wires up by connecting black to one socket and white to the opposite socket. You can use the sockets that you have.
Good luck,
CD

 

[Jeff May]

A quick update...
I stopped in at my local electrical wholesaler today.
I asked them to "educate" me on LED tubes and retrofitting.
Long story short.
I left with 4 new "direct wire" 48" tubes and 8 new non-shunted tube ends, and returned the 4 tubes I bought at Lowes.
The most time consuming part of the retrofit was making new brackets to hold the new tombstones....
Once I had them installed and wired, I hit the switch and WOW....Some really nice BRIGHT light......
One fixture down.... 5 more 4 tube 48 " fixtures to go....
After those, I have ten 96" fixtures to do.....
I found the same bulbs I purchased today online at $4.00 dollars less per tube.
I just want to thank those who chimed in and gave me some good information....
Merry Christmas!!!!!

 

[hasco]

Good Info ! I have modern (cheap) fixtures I may try with LED bulbs in the Future.

 

[BillK]

Jeff,
Just want to add something else that nobody seems to mention on these conversions. Most 32 watt T-8 bulbs put out close to 3000 lumens of light. With the leds that you show you are going to lose almost half of that. There are leds that will put out as much light but you have to search for them and I am sure they will cost more.

 

[danb35]

Most 32 watt T-8 bulbs put out close to 3000 lumens of light. With the leds that you show you are going to lose almost half of that.

1. The fluorescent tubes put out light in all directions, at least half of which you don't really want. You'll reflect some from the fixture and ceiling, but much of that light won't be usable.
2. There are other cheap LEDs that do much better in light output. These, for example, put out 2400 lumens over 120 degrees, and are $6.99 ea (less in quantity), though currently out of stock. These are 2640 lumens, but a little more expensive (and draw a little more power).

 

[Falcon67]

Jeff,
Just want to add something else that nobody seems to mention on these conversions. Most 32 watt T-8 bulbs put out close to 3000 lumens of light. With the leds that you show you are going to lose almost half of that. There are leds that will put out as much light but you have to search for them and I am sure they will cost more.

I just replaced 22 T8 Phillips 32w 6500K bulbs with the same Utilitech LED units the OP bought - also 6500K color temp. Lumen output is about half, true. However - I now have the same or better light than I had with the Phillips units. And real instant on, no "weak light saber" look for a while or slightly dim before full bright if its 50F in the shop. The Utilitech bulbs cost me a bit less thant $5 each including sales tax.

So much improvement that I put the old T8 "spares" in a construction trash bag and destroyed them.

I see now where I can get the same bulbs in a 16 pack for $72, that's about $4.50/bulb.

 

[cybrdyke]

Jeff,
Most 32 watt T-8 bulbs put out close to 3000 lumens of light. .

Actually, no. Standard T8 bulbs produce around 2850 lumens in a lab. There are premium T8 bulbs that can produce around 3000 lumens. But these all run on ballasts that will only allow them to produce 88% of that...or 2500 lumens for a standard lamp. Since those lumens are produced in a 360 degree pattern, a large percentage of them are wasted. Typical fixtures only allow 70% of those lumens get out. So, you really only get about 1750 lumens out of a fixture that has standard T8's. A 2000 lumen LED lamp puts all 2000 lumens out of the fixture, which is why you see so many people being surprised by how bright they are.

1. The fluorescent tubes put out light in all directions, at least half of which you don't really want. You'll reflect some from the fixture and ceiling, but much of that light won't be usable.

You got it!!

These are 2640 lumens, but a little more expensive (and draw a little more power).

If you're replacing regular T8's, these are excessively bright and can be annoying. But they're good if you have very high ceilings!

CD

 

[aka Larry]

I just replaced 22 T8 Phillips 32w 6500K bulbs with the same Utilitech LED units the OP bought - also 6500K color temp. Lumen output is about half, true. However - I now have the same or better light than I had with the Phillips units. And real instant on, no "weak light saber" look for a while or slightly dim before full bright if its 50F in the shop. The Utilitech bulbs cost me a bit less thant $5 each including sales tax.

So much improvement that I put the old T8 "spares" in a construction trash bag and destroyed them.

I see now where I can get the same bulbs in a 16 pack for $72, that's about $4.50/bulb.

This is exactly what I'm looking to do. Chrism you got a link, or did you get yours in-store at Lowes? Most of the deals I've seen on-line have the color temp choice limited to 5000K and I prefer the same 6500K I have now.

 

[nsula_country]

I bought a 4 pack of these at Lowes.
Naturally the sales guy assured me that they would work in ANY older fixture.
Well, They don't...
My questions before I take them back.
Can the older fixtures be used for these. The tubes when right in the holders.
Do I need to replace the ballast or is there a way to wire these things up?
Thanks...

20,000 hours, really? The T8 850 fluorescents I used were 5000k, 85 CRI, rated 24,000 hours and 3200 lumens...

Actually, no. Standard T8 bulbs produce around 2850 lumens in a lab. There are premium T8 bulbs that can produce around 3000 lumens. But these all run on ballasts that will only allow them to produce 88% of that...or 2500 lumens for a standard lamp. Since those lumens are produced in a 360 degree pattern, a large percentage of them are wasted. Typical fixtures only allow 70% of those lumens get out. So, you really only get about 1750 lumens out of a fixture that has standard T8's. A 2000 lumen LED lamp puts all 2000 lumens out of the fixture, which is why you see so many people being surprised by how bright they are.


You got it!!


If you're replacing regular T8's, these are excessively bright and can be annoying. But they're good if you have very high ceilings!

CD

Not trying to throw stones, but not ALL ballast have a factor of .88.

Standard ballast factor is around 88%. High ballast factor is 1.15-1.18... So using the lamps that I posted specs above (3200*1.18=3778). Add in high bay fixture with reflectors, they throw some photons around pretty well! Though probably reduces the 24,000 hours by the same factor.

CT

 

[cybrdyke]

Not trying to throw stones, but not ALL ballast have a factor of .88.

Standard ballast factor is around 88%. High ballast factor is 1.15-1.18... So using the lamps that I posted specs above (3200*1.18=3778). Add in high bay fixture with reflectors, they throw some photons around pretty well! Though probably reduces the 24,000 hours by the same factor.

CT

You're absolutely correct. There are other ballasts out there. Standard ballasts account for about 90% of the ballasts out there, so although there are "high" and "low" ballasts, they're pretty uncommon. And for the purpose of this thread, the OP has really old ballasts, so it's extremely unlikely that he has high BF ballasts.
I scrolled back to see the lamps that you posted and I dont see any other posts by you in this thread so I cant comment on the lamps you refer to. What I can tell you is that when you start trying to match LED tubes to high BF ballasts, the compatibility percentage goes way way down. Alot of LED tubes are not compatible with them. Be sure to verify with the manufacturer that you can do it with whatever lamps you choose.

 

[Falcon67]

aka Larry, I just walked into the store and saw the bulbs on sale/close out. There were quite a few boxes at $18.**, I forget exactly. Bought one box (4 bulbs), tried it, liked it - went back and got more. Same bulbs are now like $22.**, so not a lot more - probably new models. They had several color temps, 4000, 5000, 6500. Maybe others. Handy since I used 8' four bulb fixtures and one box does one fixture.

>The T8 850 fluorescents I used were 5000k, 85 CRI, rated 24,000 hours and 3200 lumens.

The Phillips I bought are 30,000 hours using 2,850 lumens. Not even close on hours. These have been in service for maybe 6 years. At 4 hrs/day that's 20 yr life - BS. Have replaced several over the time and when I put in the LEDs every T8 I pulled out of service had burnt ends

Now - I do not expect the Utilitech to last 20,000. I expect there will be fails - they are inexpensive bulbs. But based on the light output and the price, that's OK. I saved the receipts just in case I get early failures.

 

[aka Larry]

aka Larry, I just walked into the store and saw the bulbs on sale/close out. There were quite a few boxes at $18.**, I forget exactly. Bought one box (4 bulbs), tried it, liked it - went back and got more. Same bulbs are now like $22.**, so not a lot more - probably new models. They had several color temps, 4000, 5000, 6500. Maybe others. Handy since I used 8' four bulb fixtures and one box does one fixture.

>The T8 850 fluorescents I used were 5000k, 85 CRI, rated 24,000 hours and 3200 lumens.

The Phillips I bought are 30,000 hours using 2,850 lumens. Not even close on hours. These have been in service for maybe 6 years. At 4 hrs/day that's 20 yr life - BS. Have replaced several over the time and when I put in the LEDs every T8 I pulled out of service had burnt ends

Now - I do not expect the Utilitech to last 20,000. I expect there will be fails - they are inexpensive bulbs. But based on the light output and the price, that's OK. I saved the receipts just in case I get early failures.

I went straight to Lowes after work yesterday with the intent on finding these, which I did, and for the same price you posted for a 16 pack. The problem is these are the plug-n-play LEDs, and I want the direct-wire type. The reason (from what I've read) is the ballast is the weak point, and taking that out of the equation is a good thing. I've also read a plug-n-play LED can't be direct-wired if the ballast fails. It's a shame because the price point on those Utilitech LEDs is low enough for me to seriously consider replacing all 40 of the F32 tubes in my shop.

I guess I'll have to keep an eye out for some direct-wire LEDs in the 6500K type that are around the same price.

 

[cybrdyke]

I went straight to Lowes after work yesterday with the intent on finding these, which I did, and for the same price you posted for a 16 pack. The problem is these are the plug-n-play LEDs, and I want the direct-wire type. The reason (from what I've read) is the ballast is the weak point, and taking that out of the equation is a good thing. I've also read a plug-n-play LED can't be direct-wired if the ballast fails. It's a shame because the price point on those Utilitech LEDs is low enough for me to seriously consider replacing all 40 of the F32 tubes in my shop.

I guess I'll have to keep an eye out for some direct-wire LEDs in the 6500K type that are around the same price.

There's nothing wrong with plug and play tubes that use the ballast. It should only be considered an issue if the ballasts are old and you are experiencing repeated failures. If not, they're great!
CD

 

[aka Larry]

There's nothing wrong with plug and play tubes that use the ballast. It should only be considered an issue if the ballasts are old and you are experiencing repeated failures. If not, they're great!
CD

I'm kind of going off of our experiences here at work. In a heated and cooled office setting, we seem to replace 3 or 4 ballasts per year. My shop is not insulated, so unless I'm out there with the wood stove going, it can be below freezing in the winter. That can't be good for the longevity of the ballasts, though in the 5 years since the shop was built, I haven't replaced a single tube or ballast. My thinking is the only advantage to the plug-n-play LEDs is their ease of installation.

 

[cybrdyke]

I'm kind of going off of our experiences here at work. In a heated and cooled office setting, we seem to replace 3 or 4 ballasts per year. My shop is not insulated, so unless I'm out there with the wood stove going, it can be below freezing in the winter. That can't be good for the longevity of the ballasts, though in the 5 years since the shop was built, I haven't replaced a single tube or ballast. My thinking is the only advantage to the plug-n-play LEDs is their ease of installation.

Its heat that kills ballasts. Cold isn't much of a problem. Yes, ease of installation and instant energy savings is the benefit. You need to account for the energy used by the ballast which is about 2.5 watts per tube, so if you have a 15w tube it will actually use 17.5 watts (-ish).
CD

 

[exranger06]

I'm using these LEDs. They can work with or without a ballast.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Euri-Lighting-40W-Equivalent-4-ft-Cool-White-Hybrid-T8-Linear-LED-Light-Bulb-ET8-1150H-20/300517208?keyword=300517208&searchtype=text
I've been slowly replacing my fluorescent tubes with these one buy one, as they burn out. So I needed tubes that work with ballasts, since I'm mixing them with fluorescent tubes. But once I'm 100% LED, I'll remove the ballasts. I actually just had a ballast fail the other day, in a fixture that's only about 2 and half years old. I'm moving all the LEDs I have to that fixture and removing the ballast this week.

 

[Jeff May]

Another "update" for everyone...
I stopped in at another local electrical supplier today.
I wanted to know if they offered any "brighter" LED tubes than what I had recently purchased from the other supplier.
They had Sylvania's 17W 5000k at 2200 lumins. $7.92 each
The only catch....
They required an electronic ballast.
I asked for direct wire type. I was told by the counter guy they wouldn't sell direct wire due to "safety" reasons....
Still, the 4 tubes and new ballast was less than the 4 tubes I purchased the day before.
I bought them to try. In my own way I figured one fixture with a ballast wouldn't be all that bad. However, from here on out, all replacement LED tubes will be direct wire type.
I didn't get a chance to replace them today, so I'll have to wait until tomorrow to see the difference.
Also,
As I mentioned in another post, I have ten, 2 tube 96" fixtures also to retrofit with LEDs.
A friend of mine sent me a link to Amazon earlier today for 96" LEDs 6000k 4800 lumins single pinstyle direct wire type. 4 tubes for $70.00, I ordered 4 to try in my 96" fixtures. They are supposed to be here next week.

 

[aka Larry]

I asked for direct wire type. I was told by the counter guy they wouldn't sell direct wire due to "safety" reasons...

From what I have read, there are concerns about fire when the 'next guy' tries to replace the direct-wire LED with a standard fluorescent tube. Some direct-wire tubes come with a warning label, but most do not.

 

[Jeff May]

Yes, the first 4 direct wire tubes I got came with those stickers.
After the retrofit I put one on the fixture where it was very obvious if someone else went to change tubes.
On another note,
I got the 17W 5000k 2200 lms tubes with the new ballast installed today.
I just went into the shop to get something and turned them on....
WOW....what a difference....
They are brighter than the others I installed earlier.
The only kicker, I have that new ballast and it has a slight hum to it....
No more ballast, I'm installing ALL direct wire 5000k 2200 lms from here on out...

 

[Falcon67]

I put a pair of direct wire in the race trailer. They work fine, but the full retrofit plus sourcing new tombstones was a pain. Went with the drop ins because Im lazy and it saves a bunch of time.

 

[firebirdparts]

There's nothing wrong with plug and play tubes that use the ballast. It should only be considered an issue if the ballasts are old and you are experiencing repeated failures. If not, they're great!
CD

It seems to me these bulbs are going to outlast the ballasts by a wide margin, if they have half or a third of the rated life. Given the choice, I would take the ballast out now.

 

[cybrdyke]

It seems to me these bulbs are going to outlast the ballasts by a wide margin, if they have half or a third of the rated life. Given the choice, I would take the ballast out now.

A good electronic ballast will outlast a tiny LED driver stuffed into sealed tube. There's lots of games played by tube manufacturers when life claims are made.

If you have older ballasts that are failing, then maybe it's time to bypass them. If they're doing well, there's no reason to bypass them. A case can be made for either product. It's your free time....use it however you wish.
Good luck,
CD

 

[pepi]

A good electronic ballast will outlast a tiny LED driver stuffed into sealed tube. There's lots of games played by tube manufacturers when life claims are made.

If you have older ballasts that are failing, then maybe it's time to bypass them.If they're doing well, there's no reason to bypass them. A case can be made for either product. It's your free time....use it however you wish.
Good luck,
CD

Any proof to that or is this some kind of internet hooey, a theory, aka pipe dream?

I can tell you this, that's the first time I've read that argument. I can see no reason to not dump the ballast. Just getting ride of that ONE link in the chain improves the LED's efficiency by an easy 50%.

That BTW cuts out the added extra labor, that it takes to troubleshoot and replace. Instead of a 50/50 chance of getting it right...... it's 100%. That can be done standing on the floor