T8 LED tube issue

[B&H]

I own an auto repair shop. Last fall, I built another building, had my electrician run power from the original building, install 100amp service, and install new T8 light fixtures w/o ballasts and LED tubes that I sourced online. Whenever we are using a high-draw electrical item, such as a 110v MIG welder, 220v lift, or 220v air compressor in the original building, the lights flicker annoyingly in the new building.

I had the electrician back 3 times, no problem found on his end. If we look at the LED tubes in the original building when operating the same equipment, there is a barely noticeable flicker. If we use the one high-draw item in the new building that we currently have there (220v lift), the new LED tubes flicker the same as using any of the aforementioned items in the original building.

In the original building, most of the overhead lighting is Phillips Instant Fit T8 bulbs with the ballasts still in place in the fixtures. The one exception are T12 fixtures that I removed the ballasts from and installed T12 LED tubes with internal drivers. Again, none of the original building LED overhead lighting flickers much at all, certainly no where near the annoying flickering in the new building.

So I removed one T8 fixture w/ ballast w/ the Instant Fit bulbs from the original building and installed it in the new building, and had someone weld in the original building. The result was barely any flickering, just like in the original building.

I've discussed this with the bulb and fixture supplier - they've never heard of this, claimed they've sold 100,000,000,000,000,000,000 of these bulbs w/o any issue, and I'm the only one complaining..

So to their credit, they credited me the 48 tubes back, and now I'm trying to figure out a solution w/o having to wire in ballasts and install a "known-quantity" in the Phillips Instant Fit bulbs.

Does anyone have any ideas?

Another thing I don't like about the current bulbs in the new building is they don't seem as bright as the Phillips Instant fit ones in the old building, yet they are the same "frosted" style, same ceiling height, similar fixture to, and same paint job as the original building (white). I don't know if I should be comparing other specs on the bulbs other than the 4000k that they are.

 

[cybrdyke]

Why your ballasted fixtures dont flicker: The electronic ballasts are capable of working on voltage between approximately 95V to 305V. It doesn't matter if the voltage drops a little, the ballast will automatically correct the output. Plus, there's a strong capacitor in the ballast that corrects line noise and low current events.
This is actually one of the reasons that people use ballasted LED's. All those that claim that ballasts are the great satan and must be removed dont understand this.

You could be experiencing a bunch of different things, or a combination of things. Most likely it's voltage drop. Same thing that makes the lights in the house brown out when the AC kicks on. If you have a lot of distance between buildings it could be an issue. If your supply voltage is already marginal it could be an issue.
Other thoughts:
Is the neutral wire shared between circuits? Shared neutrals cause issues often.
How close are you to maxxing out your circuits (in amps)?

There are other solutions that you can use besides tubes. None will be quite as cheap though. You have to remember that LED tubes still have ballasts, now called drivers, inside of them. They're really small, though, so they're unable to handle some of the electrical issues that larger components can handle.
Hope that helps.
CD

 

[Platonic Solid]

Just out of curiosity, exactly which "LED tubes that I sourced online" did you buy?

 

[B&H]

CD- yeah, I'm starting to think the "Great Satan" doesn't exist. In 5 years after over 90 Instant Fits, as well as the 22 8' T12's, 3 wall packs, 1 area light and some other misc LED bulbs, we've cut our usage by 45% with NO bulb or ballast issues whatsoever! A big nothing-burger. At home, I probably have another 30 or so Instant Fits w/ fixtures with ballast and the same scenario - no failures!

The new building has nothing but LED lights, outlets, 1 220v auto lift, 1 door opener and a radiant floor heat boiler. We are no where near using much electricity there yet.

The neutrals are indeed separated. I think that was either was code or the electrician did it anyway, seeing how it was a new build. The underground wiring from one building to the new one was very expensive.

However the electrician was testing for voltage drop, he said it didn't exist when we were demonstrating using the welder.. Not sure I am completely on board with this, as I know very little about AC current.

 

[B&H]

Just out of curiosity, exactly which "LED tubes that I sourced online" did you buy?

https://www.1000bulbs.com/product/200106/LEDT-10024CS.html

 

[MattT]

Another thing I don't like about the current bulbs in the new building is they don't seem as bright as the Phillips Instant fit ones in the old building, yet they are the same "frosted" style, same ceiling height, similar fixture to, and same paint job as the original building (white). I don't know if I should be comparing other specs on the bulbs other than the 4000k that they are.

Took a look at the link for your lamps and they're on the low end for lumen output and have a 310* beam angle. So you've got a low light output made even worse by the fact that a lot of the light is shining up instead of down.

The Phillips lamps probably have a higher lumen output and/or a lower beam angle which directs the light down.

However the electrician was testing for voltage drop, he said it didn't exist when we were demonstrating using the welder.. Not sure I am completely on board with this, as I know very little about AC current.

It's probably a power quality issue which isn't going to show up as volt drop with a DMM. Will probably take a power quality analyzer or a 'scope to detect what's going on. And when you do pin down the problem good luck with getting the light company to do anything about it.

 

[B&H]

Actually the seller of the bulbs refunded me completely. I was actually surprised. But now I either have to come up with solution or live with it. One solution would be to add 8 instant-start ballasts and convert to Phillips 4000k Instant Fit bulbs which I already know will be acceptable from a light output standpoint, as well as a flickering standpoint.

Obviously, I was hoping someone had a Silver Bullet for my problem.

 

[cybrdyke]

You could likely find something, but it would be by playing trial and error with other products and who's got time for that. I suspect something with an external driver would be better, but there's no real way of knowing.
Putting in 8 ballasts isn't a big deal. Tip: since you have un-shunted sockets, be aware of your wiring diagram. Be sure that you dont have any "jumper" wires between sockets on what will be the red and blue ends.
Good luck,
CD

 

[BillK]

Since the price of the bulbs was refunded and you are basically starting from scratch, why don't you just try a different brand of led tube ? That would be the easiest thing to try. I cant possibly imagine buying ballasts and bulbs.

I would think that your problem is from RFI not voltage drop. A welder emits a lot of electrical noise. It is basically a giant spark gap transmitter.

Does the new building have its own dedicated ground rods or ufer ground ? It should.

 

[MattT]

Obviously, I was hoping someone had a Silver Bullet for my problem.

Putting the lighting on an online UPS would almost certainly stop the flickering. But if you're not happy with the lamp performance anyways I'm not sure it's worth dropping a few hundred just to stop the flickering.

 

[B&H]

Since the price of the bulbs was refunded and you are basically starting from scratch, why don't you just try a different brand of led tube ? That would be the easiest thing to try. I cant possibly imagine buying ballasts and bulbs.

I would think that your problem is from RFI not voltage drop. A welder emits a lot of electrical noise. It is basically a giant spark gap transmitter.

Does the new building have its own dedicated ground rods or ufer ground ? It should.

I'm not sure I'm being completely clear. The new building is where the flickering is occurring. The old building (where the majority of our work is being done) is where the welder, compressor, 4 lifts are that are causing the annoying flickering. The one high-draw item in the new building is a 2_post lift. It causes flickering too.

The new building has a dedicated grounding rod, even though it wasn't needed for code. My electrician thought it would be a good idea, and it was easy to do before we poured the concrete.

I am not against spending more $ to make this problem go away. It's THAT annoying to me. I just want to be sure: A). It's fixed. B). Not necessarily the most expensive option.

 

[B&H]

Putting the lighting on an online UPS would almost certainly stop the flickering. But if you're not happy with the lamp performance anyways I'm not sure it's worth dropping a few hundred just to stop the flickering.

Online UPS? No idea what that is. Please explain.

 

[BillK]

I'm not sure I'm being completely clear. The new building is where the flickering is occurring.

I understood that completely. I think your problem is Electro Magnetic Interference that is either being transmitted over the power lines or over the air like a radio wave. The inexpensive bulbs you bought probably do not have the capability of filtering it out. I would bet if you just bought some better led's to replace the ones you have now it would fix the problem. What can it hurt to try, the cost of a few bulbs ?? Shoot, I am pretty sure they have them at Home Depot. Why go through all of the trouble of installing ballasts and have one more thing to possibly fail and be less energy efficient to boot.

I would try some different bulbs in one fixture first. But thats me wanting to try the easiest, simplest fix first.

 

[Slowgsr]

Online UPS? No idea what that is. Please explain.

battery backup, it would provide clean isolation. Requires maintenance and are inefficient.

An isolation transformer would be better.

Why not just replace the fixtures with a led style fixture that incorporates a driver. Or a comparable tube, and ballast, non Chinese, some name brand & reputable. You get what you pay for.

 

[BillK]

battery backup, it would provide clean isolation. Requires maintenance and are inefficient.

An isolation transformer would be better.

Neither would help if it is radiated EMI.

 

[outdoorspace]

You could add a line filter to the circuit that powers the lights. Maybe put something like this into a junction box. Corcom 20W1

https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/282015198965

 

[GRB]

Can you confirm that the light actually comes close to the claimed 310 degree distribution?

I'm thinking that would require two rows of emitters with about 120 degrees between them. If so, I could get rid of an entire floor of 8' T-12 lighting the rows on the bottom floor of my parts warehouse.

 

[cybrdyke]

Can you confirm that the light actually comes close to the claimed 310 degree distribution?

That claim is smoke and mirrors. The only measurement that is legit is "beam angle". This company doesn't provide this very basic info. It's one way to tell a sleazy company from a good one.
What you need to look for is a "beam angle" that is over 180 degrees. Anything over that is uplighting, since 180 would be a horizontal plane. There are plenty of them out there, most of them being 240 degrees. That gives you 60 degrees of uplighting, 30 degrees on each side.
The other thing to remember about large beam angles is that it means that your lumens are spread out over a much larger arc of degrees. That means that the lights are not as bright directly under them because alot of the light is going in other directions.
CD

 

[DieselNut88]

I have had problems with the phillips bulbs. At work we use TCP or Satco. I dont know if a different brand will fix the problem, but not all LEDs are created equal.

 

[laser3kw]

to the OP
just out of my curiosity, and not that this has anything to do with the problem, but is your service 3 phase or single phase?
Also, in the new building, is there just lights and 110v outlets or does it also have 220v items?

 

[tfi racing]

What? Eight light fixtures? In just a bit more time than it took to read this thread you could install eight ballasts and the Phillips LED tubes and just be done with it.