To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

Table Saw Rapid Price Increases Looming

Wamsutta

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
10,888
Location
Amarillo, Texas
The Consumer Products Safety Commission is about to mandate all table saws sold after such and such date to have AIM technology installed. Basically what that means is the saw will retract the blade very quickly if it senses a human hand in the immediate vicinity. Some companies such as SawStop already have patents on the technology which means other manufacturers who want to continue manufacturing table saws to be sold in the United States will have to pay royalty fees to the company that owns the patent; either that or come up with their own AIM technology without violating existing patents. Bottom line is, if you think you might need to purchase a table saw before the end of 2024, you might want to get one now.

Active Injury Mitigation

YouTube Video
 
Last edited:
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

mike93lx

ALLIANCE MEMBER
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Messages
37,868
Location
Richmond, VA
Typically youtube fear mongering for clicks. Don't get sucked in. The commission is supporting (2:1) a change. It still had comment period and a long implementation time frame. Best case, a change would be over 3 years away. Worrying about buying a table saw this year to avoid this is silly
 

Bessy

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 18, 2012
Messages
995
Location
Ontario, Canada
Prices will meet an equilibrium eventually, and the secondary market will continue to exist, no way around that. Glad I bought mine last year, no less.

Eventually with legislation like this, I would expect that someone far smarter than me will come up with a retrofit system to modify older saws, but for the time being, I'll just remain hyper aware of my fingers.
 

mike93lx

ALLIANCE MEMBER
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Messages
37,868
Location
Richmond, VA
Can you do everything a table saw does with a track saw? Some people might go that route.
Not practically, but a lot can be done with one and some things better.

Much depends on what projects you are working on and what you are willing to do to make a particular tool work.

Nearly all sheet goods? Track saw and the right table is awesome.
 

f121

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 8, 2018
Messages
2,080
Location
UK
Can you do everything a table saw does with a track saw? Some people might go that route.

No. They are complimentary tools. Only way I’d go track saw only is if I was really short of space.
 

Hakeem

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 22, 2024
Messages
1,278
Location
Chicago
Can you do everything a table saw does with a track saw? Some people might go that route.
It’s a decent substitute for a contractor and better at some things but you lose the ability to make repeated cuts by setting the fence and just feeding wood through. Table saws also have larger depth of cut. This is all just compared to a contractors/jobsite saw, a full size cabinet saw is its own beast entirely.

Bit of a crude analogy but you can liken track saw:table saw to jackstands:four post lift. There’s significant overlap between the two but a few critical advantages unique to each option.
 

Hakeem

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 22, 2024
Messages
1,278
Location
Chicago
Hard to say since no decision has even been made for table saws.. My guess is no as they are of insignificant volume and typically used commercially
Not just that, they are far less dangerous. The blade isn’t exposed, the workpiece remains stationary and supported at the end which nullifies risk of kickback, and you’d never use one to make small cuts that would bring you dangerously close to the blade when you retrieve it.
 

Firebrick43

Well-known member
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
14,183
Location
West central Indiana
When does Sawstops patent expire?
They have several. Most of them have already expired over the past few years. The last for the logic controller part of the system expires in mid 2024.

I am surprised Bosch hasn’t start selling their system yet? They were sued and lost in 2017 but the one that was applicable then has expired.

As far as track saw vs table saw, as mike alluded to they can do almost everything a table saw can do you just have to think about it in a different way and get some small attachments to do so.

The one thing they really can’t do is run a dado stack but I wonder if the new safety rules will allow that anyways on a table saw?

European safety regs involving blade stopping times have caused long arbors needed for dado stacks to be eliminated from their saws for several decades.

Of course you can put a router attachment on a tracksaws track and cut dados in case sides but no finger joints would be possible. They would have to be done on a router table
 
Last edited:

acer66

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
4,418
Location
Western North Carolina
They have several. Most of them have already expired over the past few years. The last for the logic controller part of the system expires in mid 2024.

I am surprised Bosch hasn’t start selling their system yet? They were sued and lost in 2017 but the one that was applicable then has expired.

As far as track saw vs table saw, as mike alluded to they can do almost everything a table saw can do you just have to think about it in a different way and get some small attachments to do so.

The one thing they really can’t do is run a dado stack but I wonder if the new safety rules will allow that anyways on a table saw?

European safety regs involving blade stopping times have caused long arbors needed for dado stacks to be eliminated from their saws for several decades.

Of course you can put a router attachment on a tracksaws track and cut dados in case sides but no finger joints would be possible. They would have to be done on a router table
I hope that Bosch will come back with their system since I think it is better than SS imho.
 

Hakeem

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 22, 2024
Messages
1,278
Location
Chicago
I hope that Bosch will come back with their system since I think it is better than SS imho.
Same here, if only because the SawStop guy is a major bellend. He’s been lobbying to get table saws with mandatory sawstop type bladestops for years but then sues other companies to keep them from releasing a SawStop mechanism of their own.

The last major change for table saws was a minimum surface area requirement for blade size, just a few years ago. That’s why the compact table saws use an 8 1/4” blade now (I just use a 7 1/4” regardless because it’s much less expensive)
 

American Locomotive

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 8, 2017
Messages
11,012
Location
Rhode Island
I feel like it's not really a big deal for the consumer unless someone absolutely *needs* a new saw for whatever reason.

How many table saws have been made in the history of this country? How many people are trying to unload a saw they never use anymore? Popping on Facebook Marketplace and Craigslist shows at least ~40 table saws for sale in my area, and I don't live in a big city.

IMO, the biggest impact this will have is for commercial contractors, as they likely only buy new. But considering how much money a table saw injury can cost in terms of lawsuits, fines, lost productivity and increased insurance premiums - a couple hundred dollars more for a table saw is probably a sound investment.
 

four.cycle

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 19, 2015
Messages
29,195
Location
Tacoma, Washington
Sun Jan 28 07:35:45 2024
at this very moment:
- TWO free table saws on Seattle-Tacoma Craigslist
- 185 listings for "table saw" under "tools" on Seattle-Tacoma Craigslist

The one in my garage works just dandy.

I'll worry about this later. ;)
 

zendriver

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 10, 2014
Messages
30,135
Location
Indiana
I "smelled a rat" right from the title.

Uncle Sam is the culprit, even though they are being lobbied by Sawstop and probably other saw mfg as well.

"$200 increase" for a table saw but "could be a thousand" for a cabinet saw. :headscrat

They're probably all in on it. We'll pay and blame it on big brother.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

Firebrick43

Well-known member
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
14,183
Location
West central Indiana
I hope that Bosch will come back with their system since I think it is better than SS imho.
I do as well and hope they sell the system to other manufactures at cost or minimal profit to have common lower cost solution that doesn't damage blades like SS.

I then hope it puts SS out of business because of its previous slimy owners actions.
 

yatg

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 16, 2019
Messages
2,836
Location
Southern Oregon
The "Consumer Products Safety Commission" sounds like a bunch of self-important people trying to justify their existence.
They've already regulated everything else to death, now they're attacking power tools.
People making stuff has been on decline for the last 30 years, you can thank technology and the internet for that.
So they're trying to regulate a tool that probably sees less usage now than it ever did.
I would put money on this that Saw-Stop is pushing it.
 

Steve_P

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 15, 2010
Messages
5,185
A trip to the ER for a table saw accident will cost thousands of dollars. How much does the saw stop feature add to the cost? A few hundred? How much are your fingers worth? Yes, I know, everyone here is an expert user, will never get hurt, and doesn't need any mandated safety features like ABS and air bags. Which is what everyone that's now missing a finger at the ER said the hour before.

IIRC, table saws and chain saws are the top two tools for ER trips; and most of these injuries are going to be severe. I worked with a guy in the 1980s, "expert" chain saw user, had hundreds of hours experience, had a saw kick back (before the mandated safety features), it got into his thigh, huge gash, and he almost bled to death by the time he could drive himself to the hospital. He had a nasty scar. I don't own a table saw and have only used one maybe 20 times, and all of those were with the saw owner helping; multiple times I've been very surprised what the saw did as far as grabbing and jerking the wood.
 

manwithtools

ALLIANCE MEMBER
Joined
Aug 24, 2015
Messages
14,073
Location
Lebanon, TN
I do as well and hope they sell the system to other manufactures at cost or minimal profit to have common lower cost solution that doesn't damage blades like SS.

I then hope it puts SS out of business because of its previous slimy owners actions.
Since July 2017, SawStop has been owned by TTS - Tooltechnic Systems Holding AG (Germany), which also owns Festool, Tanos (Maker of Systainer), Narex, and Shaper Tools
 

alinc100

Well-known member
Joined
May 26, 2013
Messages
3,039
Location
Dearborn,MI
A trip to the ER for a table saw accident will cost thousands of dollars. How much does the saw stop feature add to the cost? A few hundred? How much are your fingers worth? Yes, I know, everyone here is an expert user, will never get hurt, and doesn't need any mandated safety features like ABS and air bags. Which is what everyone that's now missing a finger at the ER said the hour before.

IIRC, table saws and chain saws are the top two tools for ER trips; and most of these injuries are going to be severe. I worked with a guy in the 1980s, "expert" chain saw user, had hundreds of hours experience, had a saw kick back (before the mandated safety features), it got into his thigh, huge gash, and he almost bled to death by the time he could drive himself to the hospital. He had a nasty scar. I don't own a table saw and have only used one maybe 20 times, and all of those were with the saw owner helping; multiple times I've been very surprised what the saw did as far as grabbing and jerking the wood.
You are correct on ER visits in the $Thousands. But not every homeowner, small business,one man cabinet shops are not going to roll the vintage TS to the curb to park a SawStop. Now my former employer set up a new shop space in NC. They did equip the shop with multiple Saw Stops. They saved a ton on insurance rates. They found out any metal,a staple, a nail, wet,damp humidity had an effect on the cartridge. But yes still cheaper than ER visits and finger sewn back on. If starting from scratch SawStop is a great idea and not too much more than a new PowerMatic66 . I still won't be rolling my 1947 Unisaw out to the scrapyard anytime soon. The #1 safety feature I have on my saw,along with the(non) SawStop saws we had at my old job was a kick plate off switch that was activated by foot, allowing both hands to stay in contact with the material being sawn.
 

acer66

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
4,418
Location
Western North Carolina
You are correct on ER visits in the $Thousands. But not every homeowner, small business,one man cabinet shops are not going to roll the vintage TS to the curb to park a SawStop. Now my former employer set up a new shop space in NC. They did equip the shop with multiple Saw Stops. They saved a ton on insurance rates. They found out any metal,a staple, a nail, wet,damp humidity had an effect on the cartridge. But yes still cheaper than ER visits and finger sewn back on. If starting from scratch SawStop is a great idea and not too much more than a new PowerMatic66 . I still won't be rolling my 1947 Unisaw out to the scrapyard anytime soon. The #1 safety feature I have on my saw,along with the(non) SawStop saws we had at my old job was a kick plate off switch that was activated by foot, allowing both hands to stay in contact with the material being sawn.
I also have an old Unisaw because how could one not? 😉

I might borrow your idea with a kick plate off switch.
 

tarmy

Well-known member
Joined
May 28, 2014
Messages
4,707
Location
Nor Cal
More nanny state rules. There are a lot of things in most home shops that can hurt you, remove various body appendages and maybe kill you. People are careless, inattentive and not informed about the use of many tools. Hammers, screwdrivers and lawnmowers can take out various things that are desirable to keep. I wonder when they come after those as well.
 

zendriver

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 10, 2014
Messages
30,135
Location
Indiana
More nanny state rules. There are a lot of things in most home shops that can hurt you, remove various body appendages and maybe kill you. People are careless, inattentive and not informed about the use of many tools. Hammers, screwdrivers and lawnmowers can take out various things that are desirable to keep. I wonder when they come after those as well.
One would think whacking a finger with a hammer, would be much different than lopping it off - in a microsecond, with a table saw. :dunno:

Doesn't matter anyway

Like each and every other safety organization, the Feds are "stuck between a rock and a hard place" on this. A potential major safety hazard has been presented and put in the limelight.

Who wants to be the one (s) - who get their paycheck from safety, to say "aw, this is no big deal! Nothing to even be concerned with!" and kick it to the curb?

Answer - No one, that's who.
 

manwithtools

ALLIANCE MEMBER
Joined
Aug 24, 2015
Messages
14,073
Location
Lebanon, TN
Which is why I stated "previous slimy owners actions."

The point is: How would SawStop going out of business have any impact on the prior owner? Also, I don't think TTS is going to go out of business anytime soon, SawStop success or failure won't impact them much.
 

alinc100

Well-known member
Joined
May 26, 2013
Messages
3,039
Location
Dearborn,MI
I also have an old Unisaw because how could one not? 😉

I might borrow your idea with a kick plate off switch.
I wish I could find the original article from Fine Woodworking about 1998/99ish. The saws at work were all equipped with a magnetic starter which allowed for a simple momentary off switch to cut the power. I talked the shop electrician into making a relay box/switch for my 1947 Unisaw,which runs on 110 and I mounted the momentary off switch to the base of my saw with the use of plywood,couple hinges and a spring/bolt combination to hold the paddle off the switch until kicked.
 

Attachments

  • 001.jpg
    001.jpg
    1.2 MB · Views: 42
  • 002.jpg
    002.jpg
    1,010.6 KB · Views: 42
  • 003.jpg
    003.jpg
    958.7 KB · Views: 42

Hakeem

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 22, 2024
Messages
1,278
Location
Chicago
The point is: How would SawStop going out of business have any impact on the prior owner? Also, I don't think TTS is going to go out of business anytime soon, SawStop success or failure won't impact them much.
It doesn’t have to be rational, I just don’t want that man to have the satisfaction of being right :p
 

Hakeem

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 22, 2024
Messages
1,278
Location
Chicago
A trip to the ER for a table saw accident will cost thousands of dollars. How much does the saw stop feature add to the cost? A few hundred? How much are your fingers worth? Yes, I know, everyone here is an expert user, will never get hurt, and doesn't need any mandated safety features like ABS and air bags. Which is what everyone that's now missing a finger at the ER said the hour before.

IIRC, table saws and chain saws are the top two tools for ER trips; and most of these injuries are going to be severe. I worked with a guy in the 1980s, "expert" chain saw user, had hundreds of hours experience, had a saw kick back (before the mandated safety features), it got into his thigh, huge gash, and he almost bled to death by the time he could drive himself to the hospital. He had a nasty scar. I don't own a table saw and have only used one maybe 20 times, and all of those were with the saw owner helping; multiple times I've been very surprised what the saw did as far as grabbing and jerking the wood.
You are correct (well, nailgun is number one power tool for ER visits, followed by riding mowers, and then table saw/chainsaw). I use a tablesaw almost every day and it scares me a little bit every time I fire it up. As it should. These machines want to eat your lunch, and the user who stops respecting them will likely learn a painful and permanent lesson in short order.

For me personally, the issue lies with the fact that:

A) it sounds like it will be a mandatory upgrade to stay compliant
B)the added cost of these safety measures must be borne by the consumer
C) right now, there is only one company with a patent protected mechanism. So this legislation would be enriching them directly

In light of these facts, I see it as another example of corporate interests lobbying to secure favorable legislation.
 

micromind

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2023
Messages
3,099
Location
Fernley, Nevada, about 30 miles east of Reno.
Back in the 60s when I was learning to use power tools, it was BEAT into my head..........this tool will do its absolute best to hurt you. You, and you alone, need to keep it from doing so.

These days, personal safety is not taught but rather, 'all this safety **** will keep you from getting hurt'.

Looking back on nearly 6 decades of using power tools, mostly professionally, I greatly prefer the old way.
 

American Locomotive

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 8, 2017
Messages
11,012
Location
Rhode Island
Back in the 60s when I was learning to use power tools, it was BEAT into my head..........this tool will do its absolute best to hurt you. You, and you alone, need to keep it from doing so.

These days, personal safety is not taught but rather, 'all this safety **** will keep you from getting hurt'.

Looking back on nearly 6 decades of using power tools, mostly professionally, I greatly prefer the old way.
The "old way" simply isn't reliable enough. "Saw Stop" or blade-braking technology isn't new. It's existed for about 25 years now, and it was created in response to tons of table saw injuries being committed every day by people who would have learned "the old ways". The U.S. has about finger 10 amputations a day from table saws, and has so for decades. You can find articles and publications going back to the 1970s talking about table saw amputations.

The reality is, that humans are flawed and table saws are very dangerous tools and unexpected things can sometimes happen. I think just about every DIYer has had a "close call" at some point with a tool, and I think everyone knows that one contractor or commercial woodworker that removed a couple of finger tips with a saw.
 

Ray-CA

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2007
Messages
3,452
Location
San Diego CA
The Consumer Products Safety Commission is about to mandate all table saws sold after such and such date to have AIM technology installed. Basically what that means is the saw will retract the blade very quickly if it senses a human hand in the immediate vicinity. Some companies such as SawStop already have patents on the technology which means other manufacturers who want to continue manufacturing table saws to be sold in the United States will have to pay royalty fees to the company that owns the patent; either that or come up with their own AIM technology without violating existing patents. Bottom line is, if you think you might need to purchase a table saw before the end of 2024, you might want to get one now.

Active Injury Mitigation

YouTube Video
My understanding was that the developer of the Saw-Stop system initially offered it to every saw manufacturer and they all turned it down. They thought it would add too much to the cost.
 

neophyte

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 23, 2012
Messages
9,776
Location
Pennsylvannia
Can you do everything a table saw does with a track saw? Some people might go that route.
No, you can’t use a tracksaw for everything a tablesaw can be used for, and I really wish people would stop pushing this Bullsh!t argument.
Also, tracksaws aren’t inherently safe, even the “good” brands like Festool.
There are numerous mentions over on the Festool forum of the tracksaws jumping the rails, and taking a bite out of the aluminum, although I don’t know how many injuries resulted from it, if any.
I’ve had it happen myself.
Tracksaws are also **** as regular circular saws, with the posdible exception of some of the Mafell and Festool designs, like the Festool HK saws, and the Mafell K KSS and KSP type saws.
 

Boogerman

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 28, 2021
Messages
833
Location
aspen cove hill
My understanding was that the developer of the Saw-Stop system initially offered it to every saw manufacturer and they all turned it down. They thought it would add too much to the cost.
It's interesting how the government conspiracy and nanny state and big bad corporate themes have distorted the reality over the years and given a bad rep to an invention that has had huge benefits to industry and workers.

The man that invented sawstop was an avid woodworker, and an attorney. He came up with the sawstop mechanism, and a number of other innovations. He tried to sell them to the commercial market unsuccessfully, so took some risks and started his own company. Not only were his saws safer, but they were extremely good saws. Insurance companies mandated that commercial shops and schools and institutions buy them; by giving rate breaks that more than paid for the saws. The benefits to industry in lost time accidents and disabled employees has been immense, and because of the lower accident and insurance costs, have INCREASED profits, not cost the companies.

The benefit to the average homeowner from this is that it made unisaws surplus at a lot of places, and available for purchase. Most of us (I'm included in this) that own unisaws bought them somewhat reasonably priced because of this surplus, caused by insurance rates mandating purchase of newer, much safer saws.

The irony of this is that I was too cheap to buy a Sawstop, because I purchased an excellent unisaw from a school for $175. I'm a big proponent of using technology to do things safer; I really should replace it with a sawstop, but I've gotten comfortable with it being in my shop and don't want to go to the effort to change it. I did outfit it with a riving knife that is excellent, and a guard, that I don't use because it's too cumbersome. Realistically, a Sawstop would be a good choice for me; and my business would support the purchase easily, because of tax benefits. I wish I had thought of this last December, when I was looking for a $5000+ tax deduction to end the year.
 

neophyte

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 23, 2012
Messages
9,776
Location
Pennsylvannia
I
My understanding was that the developer of the Saw-Stop system initially offered it to every saw manufacturer and they all turned it down. They thought it would add too much to the cost.
t was way more complicated than that.
Black & Decker tested the system, and found that the capacitance system would false rrip on standard construction materials, like pressure treated wood, and wet limber, and materials coated with foil, etc.
All standard construction materials, which are routinely cut on a tablesaw, especially tablesaws like B&D’s Dewalt brand made.
Apparently, the stupid f@cking patent lawyer who designed the system, was too f@cking stupid to foresee this issue, because he didn’t properly test his saw safety system.
He then couldn’t figure out how to fix the issue himself, so he hired an outside engineer to figure out a solution. (I believe the engineer specialized in capacitance)
That engineer couldn’t solve the issue, so the Sawsyop inventor sued that engineer.
The Sawstop inventor’s solution, was to build in an override, that would test if a material might trip the saw, so the saw user could deactivate the trip function.
This basically would have left a saw that supposedly had a certain safety function, without the safety function, while cutting wood were the safety function might be more needed.
Further, the override required extra steps for a user to use, meaning saw users might be more likely to leave a saw running between cuts (with the safety capacitance mode deactivated) to save time, which us inherently dangerous.

B&D likely declined the technology because the “inventor” seemed like a litigious ******, who didn’t know what he was doing.
The inventor also wanted a licensing fee that was a higher dollar amount than the average retailer made on the sale of a consumer grade saw, including Dewalt saws, and he refused to self indemnify the manufacturers against injuries from consumers using the saws.

The power tool manufacturers didn’t avoid the technology due just to price.
The power tool manufacturers avoided the technology, because it was imperfect, could lead to other safety issues, and was designed by someone who wanted way too much for a neat but highly imperfect idea.

The designed went on to serve as an “expert” witness, for lawsuits concerning tablesaws, on how his technology could have prevented injury if his technology had been included in the saw design.

When Bosch later came out with a similar safety function, that didn’t potentially damage the saw blade, or require the same expensive replacement cartridges as Sawstop, Sawstop sued to have the Bosch saw removed from the US market.

Incidentally, the Sawstop inventor didn’t invent the safety capacitance switch for blade contact, there were previous patents for that.
He also didn’t invent the dropping of the saw blade below the tabletop, there are at least two different saw designs with tables, and a blade that rises from below that already did that (the Norsaw and the rising blade chopsaw.)
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
Top Bottom