Table saw wiring

[acer66]

Hello there,

I just got an old table saw running on 240V and I want to change the way it is wired right now.
To me it looks like the switch box at the saw does not work and the prior owner just daisy changed another switch box to it with dryer plug at the end.
Seller used the new switch box to fire up the saw.

Ideally I would like to rebuild the old switch and loose the two box setup but also maybe switch to a magnetic setup altogether.

Does it add to the safety to switch to a grounded plug and would it be up to code to run a 120V device, future attached router table of that 240V switch box at the table?

Thank you.


Old switch box.

 

[Terry D]

What HP is the motor

 

[Innovate1]

Are you wanting to switch the saw motor to 120V? (Not sure if that is even an option). You have a grounded plug - well, sort of. That's an old style dryer plug that didn't have a neutral wire and is no longer to code. If you want to keep it on 240 and run 120 volt stuff too you need a 4 wire connection - 2 hots, neutral, and ground. The 120V item would run from hot and neutral. It may be that the original switch is defective and why they added another switch.

 

[Terry D]

Are you wanting to switch the saw motor to 120V? (Not sure if that is even an option). You have a grounded plug - well, sort of. That's an old style dryer plug that didn't have a neutral wire and is no longer to code. If you want to keep it on 240 and run 120 volt stuff too you need a 4 wire connection - 2 hots, neutral, and ground. The 120V item would run from hot and neutral. It may be that the original switch is defective and why they added another switch.

Actually the old 3 wire dryer and range receptacles did have a neutral. They didnt have a ground. You were allowed to bond the neutral to the chassis to bring it at geound potential

 

[Innovate1]

Actually the old 3 wire dryer and range receptacles did have a neutral. They didnt have a ground. You were allowed to bond the neutral to the chassis to bring it at geound potential

From what little I have read you are technically correct calling this a neutral but practically speaking it is a ground also. It all gets a bit weird for these old 3 wire dryer/stove plugs as the neutral (if you call it that) gets connected to the metal box that the receptacle is in to ground it. For the saw the third wire IS the ground (ignoring for the moment the improper plug on the end of the cord) unless the OP adds the 120V router he is proposing. For both 240 and 120V loads he needs a 4 wire cord.

 

[Terry D]

From what little I have read you are technically correct calling this a neutral but practically speaking it is a ground also. It all gets a bit weird for these old 3 wire dryer/stove plugs as the neutral (if you call it that) gets connected to the metal box that the receptacle is in to ground it. For the saw the third wire IS the ground (ignoring for the moment the improper plug on the end of the cord) unless the OP adds the 120V router he is proposing. For both 240 and 120V loads he needs a 4 wire cord.

Those old receptacles and the new ones are 125/250 volt. The difference now is that there needs to be a seperate ground. Dryers and ranges also need 120 volts for controls, motors, etc.. that is why it is a neutral. Neutrals and ground have two different purposes.

 

[acer66]

Thank you for the answers and I want to keep the saw at 250V when but was thinking if it would be kosher to splice a 125V run of that switch box for a 125V tool because I will replace the table extension plate with one with a router in it.

I have this oven cable which is serious overkill for the saw but that is what I got it and it is long enough and it will be feed by a 20A breaker.

 

[nadogail]

When the Neutral and Ground are tied together in your Main Panel, IMO they become one and the same.

If you are connecting to a Sub Panel then I agree with separate Neutral and Ground requirements.

I fully realize that my brown eyes may indicate how full of misunderstanding I presently am.

 

[Innovate1]

Those old receptacles and the new ones are 125/250 volt. The difference now is that there needs to be a seperate ground. Dryers and ranges also need 120 volts for controls, motors, etc.. that is why it is a neutral. Neutrals and ground have two different purposes.

I understand all that very well - although both neutrals and grounds connect eventually to the same point. The difference is that neutrals carry running current and grounds are safety grounds only and don't carry running current. I was just saying that calling the grounded conductor a neutral and saying it isn't a ground on the old plug style is at best confusing - it seems that is technically correct but very confusing. And it doesn't really apply to a saw that just happens to use that plug (probably incorrectly) and doesn't currently have 120V loads.

 

[Terry D]

I personally would keep the 120 volt for the router seperate from the 240 volt . Just plug ot into a 120 volt receptacke when needed. What is the HP of the table saw

 

[acer66]

I personally would keep the 120 volt for the router seperate from the 240 volt . Just plug ot into a 120 volt receptacke when needed. What is the HP of the table saw

Will do and it is a 1&1/2HP motor.

 

[MoonRise]

acer,

You sure that the motor is just 1-1/2 hp? I thought that 'later model' (post WWII) single-phase 240V Unisaws were usually 3 HP, with an optional 5 HP (depending on year, specific model, etc).

Your existing SquareD switch is rated for use with a maximum 1-1/2 HP 120V motor OR with a maximum 3 HP 240V motor (single phase, obviously).

The electrician-types are specifically asking what the HP on the motor is for a few reasons. The motor HP has consequences on choices and options and limits on the switch AND the wiring AND the plug-or-no-plug option. So electrically, the motor HP matters a LOT.

And a +42 on just running the 120V router to its own cord/plug/outlet separate from the Unisaw wiring.

The Unisaw's 240V motor just needs hot-hot-ground. If someone monkeyed with the input wiring and/or the OEM (?) SquareD switch, then you (we) really don't KNOW what is going on with the wiring. Especially from just a picture or two over the Net.

But a 240V single-phase motor up to 3 HP -can- be safely (and to-Code) plugged in and used with a NEMA6-50 plug and receptacle. (not that I would want to be in the habit of yanking an energized 6-50 plug out while the 3HP motor was running, except in an emergency)

example:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003A2QZKY/?tag=atomicindus08-20

5374 - 50 Amp NEMA 6-50R Flush Mtg Receptacle in Black - Leviton

Black - 50 Amp, 250 Volt, NEMA 6-50R, 2P, 3W, Flush Mtg Receptacle, Straight Blade, Industrial Grade, Grounding, Side Wired, Steel Strap

www.leviton.com

9650-P

www.leviton.com

(no endorsement implied by those links, just a quick web search showing some 3HP rated NEMA6-50 plugs and receptacles)

Bigger than 3HP on the motor, and I think that you pretty much have to hard wire it into a disconnect (no plug and receptacle, unless you go with 'industrial' type pin-and-sleeve $$$$ stuff).


But based on your picture, your saw is no older than 1961 (that's when Delta/Rockwell changed from a plain miter slot groove to a T-slot miter groove). http://wiki.vintagemachinery.org/UnisawTypeStudy.ashx

And http://wiki.vintagemachinery.org/Search.aspx?AllNamespaces=1&FilesAndAttachments=1&Query=unisaw

Specific model # of your Unisaw can help narrow some things down.

And also, see https://deltamachineryparts.com/ for possible parts (if needed).

 

[tarmy]

Consider something like this…that you could use your knee to stop. Mine is 240 as well…

 

[Norcal]

acer,

You sure that the motor is just 1-1/2 hp? I thought that 'later model' (post WWII) single-phase 240V Unisaws were usually 3 HP, with an optional 5 HP (depending on year, specific model, etc).

Your existing SquareD switch is rated for use with a maximum 1-1/2 HP 120V motor OR with a maximum 3 HP 240V motor (single phase, obviously).

The electrician-types are specifically asking what the HP on the motor is for a few reasons. The motor HP has consequences on choices and options and limits on the switch AND the wiring AND the plug-or-no-plug option. So electrically, the motor HP matters a LOT.

And a +42 on just running the 120V router to its own cord/plug/outlet separate from the Unisaw wiring.

The Unisaw's 240V motor just needs hot-hot-ground. If someone monkeyed with the input wiring and/or the OEM (?) SquareD switch, then you (we) really don't KNOW what is going on with the wiring. Especially from just a picture or two over the Net.

But a 240V single-phase motor up to 3 HP -can- be safely (and to-Code) plugged in and used with a NEMA6-50 plug and receptacle. (not that I would want to be in the habit of yanking an energized 6-50 plug out while the 3HP motor was running, except in an emergency)

example:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003A2QZKY/?tag=atomicindus08-20

5374 - 50 Amp NEMA 6-50R Flush Mtg Receptacle in Black - Leviton

Black - 50 Amp, 250 Volt, NEMA 6-50R, 2P, 3W, Flush Mtg Receptacle, Straight Blade, Industrial Grade, Grounding, Side Wired, Steel Strap

www.leviton.com

9650-P

www.leviton.com

(no endorsement implied by those links, just a quick web search showing some 3HP rated NEMA6-50 plugs and receptacles)

Bigger than 3HP on the motor, and I think that you pretty much have to hard wire it into a disconnect (no plug and receptacle, unless you go with 'industrial' type pin-and-sleeve $$$$ stuff).


But based on your picture, your saw is no older than 1961 (that's when Delta/Rockwell changed from a plain miter slot groove to a T-slot miter groove). http://wiki.vintagemachinery.org/UnisawTypeStudy.ashx

And http://wiki.vintagemachinery.org/Search.aspx?AllNamespaces=1&FilesAndAttachments=1&Query=unisaw

Specific model # of your Unisaw can help narrow some things down.

And also, see https://deltamachineryparts.com/ for possible parts (if needed).

Your not likely to find many parts at Delta Machinery, they are a shell of their former selves.

 

[acer66]

acer,

You sure that the motor is just 1-1/2 hp? I thought that 'later model' (post WWII) single-phase 240V Unisaws were usually 3 HP, with an optional 5 HP (depending on year, specific model, etc).

Your existing SquareD switch is rated for use with a maximum 1-1/2 HP 120V motor OR with a maximum 3 HP 240V motor (single phase, obviously).

The electrician-types are specifically asking what the HP on the motor is for a few reasons. The motor HP has consequences on choices and options and limits on the switch AND the wiring AND the plug-or-no-plug option. So electrically, the motor HP matters a LOT.

And a +42 on just running the 120V router to its own cord/plug/outlet separate from the Unisaw wiring.

The Unisaw's 240V motor just needs hot-hot-ground. If someone monkeyed with the input wiring and/or the OEM (?) SquareD switch, then you (we) really don't KNOW what is going on with the wiring. Especially from just a picture or two over the Net.

But a 240V single-phase motor up to 3 HP -can- be safely (and to-Code) plugged in and used with a NEMA6-50 plug and receptacle. (not that I would want to be in the habit of yanking an energized 6-50 plug out while the 3HP motor was running, except in an emergency)

example:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003A2QZKY/?tag=atomicindus08-20

5374 - 50 Amp NEMA 6-50R Flush Mtg Receptacle in Black - Leviton

Black - 50 Amp, 250 Volt, NEMA 6-50R, 2P, 3W, Flush Mtg Receptacle, Straight Blade, Industrial Grade, Grounding, Side Wired, Steel Strap

www.leviton.com

9650-P

www.leviton.com

(no endorsement implied by those links, just a quick web search showing some 3HP rated NEMA6-50 plugs and receptacles)

Bigger than 3HP on the motor, and I think that you pretty much have to hard wire it into a disconnect (no plug and receptacle, unless you go with 'industrial' type pin-and-sleeve $$$$ stuff).


But based on your picture, your saw is no older than 1961 (that's when Delta/Rockwell changed from a plain miter slot groove to a T-slot miter groove). http://wiki.vintagemachinery.org/UnisawTypeStudy.ashx

And http://wiki.vintagemachinery.org/Search.aspx?AllNamespaces=1&FilesAndAttachments=1&Query=unisaw

Specific model # of your Unisaw can help narrow some things down.

And also, see https://deltamachineryparts.com/ for possible parts (if needed).

Wow that is a lot of info thank you.
I doubt this a period correct machine and it looked like the cover was just removed before the sale.
Anyway here is the motor plate which states 1&1/2HP
You seem to be very knowledgeable, the saw came with this but no mounting hardware and it looks like it could fit.
Have you seen something like this on a Unisaw before?

Thank you.

 

[acer66]

Consider something like this…that you could use your knee to stop. Mine is 240 as well…

Nice saw and yes I am thinking about that too because I am not the biggest fan of these little switches.
The Bosch contractor saw which is going to be replaced by this has something similar.
What kind of mobile base is that?

 

[cpttuna]

just my $.02. I inherited a table saw from my dad that was made in the 1950's. The wiring was bad. I had a certified electrician rewire it but I purchased a 25 extension cord 12-3ga so I could place it in the middle of the garage and plug it in to any of 4 outlets in the garage. I had him wire it into the wiring.

 

[tarmy]

Nice saw and yes I am thinking about that too because I am not the biggest fan of these little switches.
The Bosch contractor saw which is going to be replaced by this has something similar.
What kind of mobile base is that?

I made it.

I used angle iron wrapped around a cheapo base frame that was only for the saw cabinet and not the extension. The castors sucked too…sooo…I made a real base and added good castors…

 

[acer66]

I made it.

I used angle iron wrapped around a cheapo base frame that was only for the saw cabinet and not the extension. The castors sucked too…sooo…I made a real base and added good castors…

Nicely done.

 

[acer66]

Just to bring this home, 4 prong 250V cable for the saw and a separate 125V cable for a router etc.

When did they switch to 125/250V?

Thank you.

 

[Innovate1]

Just to bring this home, 4 prong 250V cable for the saw and a separate 125V cable for a router etc.

When did they switch to 125/250V?

Thank you.

Oh no! You've brought up the dreaded variation in voltage nomenclature. Prepare to be inundated by experts on the history and schooled on the finer points. At least you didn't mention 110 or 220 - that often results in public shaming and humiliation.

Seriously, I don't know exactly why some things are rated 125/250 instead of 120/240 but there's no need to have your utility change your service.

 

[Norcal]

Wiring devices are rated 125V, 250V, or in the case of dual voltage devices, 125/250V, this has been the norm even way back when the supply voltages were 110/220V, above that devices are rated for the actual voltage, such as 277V, 480V,600V.

 

[MoonRise]

tarmy, Nice Powermatic and nice mobile base.

acer,

You do NOT need a 4 wire configuration for the Unisaw. It is NOT using 120/240 at the same time, which is why/when a 4 wire configuration is needed/required (things like an electric clothes dryer use a 4 wire, because they have 240V for the heating elements and 120V for the motor and controls).

If you wire it for operation on 240V (or 250V ), it will use HOT-HOT-GROUND, three wires.

If you wire it for operation on 120V (125V ), it will use HOT-NEUTRAL-GROUND, again three wires. Different plug and receptacle than a 240V 3 wire configuration obviously (maybe not so obvious, I have heard/seen where someone rigged 240V to/through a NEMA5-15 ).

As to your question with the picture, yes I recognize those items. That's an egg carton and a screwdriver.

You also have a miter gauge. And looking back at your original picture more closely, I made a mistake when I said that you have a T-slot miter groove. The shadow/chip in the picture on the corner of the miter miter fooled me. You have a plain miter groove, which means that your saw is then OLDER than from 1960. And thus my further error about the possible motor HP. But your saw is labeled Delta/Rockwell and has a louvered dust door, so it should be no older than from 1946. So you saw looks like it was made sometime between 1946 and 1960.

The wooden 'plates' are shop-made zero clearance inserts. Your plywood one was used (by the previous owner) with a dado blade, hence the wide kerf.

The orange plastic thing is a blade guard with "splitter" and "anti-kickback pawls". I am not knowledgeable enough about 'old' Unisaws to say whether or not that blade guard is OEM or not. Sorry.

If you locate the Unisaw model number and serial number somewhere (should be a data plate on the saw with that info, although it might be 'gone' by now), a little Google-fu might help you get some more info about your saw.

The Delta Vintage Project - Part One: Serial Numbers - VintageMachinery.org Knowledge Base (Wiki)

wiki.vintagemachinery.org

 

[Innovate1]

Moonrise is correct. If you keep the 120V router separate you only need a 3 wire 240V plug. You can use a 4 wire but it isn't needed. I will leave it to others more familiar with receptacle variations to suggest what is appropriate.

 

[FMB4]

One of the OP's photos clearly shows 1.5 HP @ 120v and 3 HP @ 220 single phase.

 

[Innovate1]

One of the OP's photos clearly shows 1.5 HP @ 120v and 3 HP @ 220 single phase.

That's the switch not the motor. Motor is marked 1.5 Hp. What's your point?

 

[MoonRise]

acer's Unisaw has a SquareD switch which is rated for use on 110V with a maximum motor of 1-1/2 HP. Or for use on 220V with a maximum motor of 3 HP.

And his motor is also rated (and wired internally) for use on 115V OR on 230V.

And he has to make sure that the incoming wiring and the switch wiring (configuration) and the motor wiring (jumper configuration) all match up (and check to see how the actual current, no pun intended, wiring is configured).

He could wire up his saw to run on 120V (or 115V or 125V, all the 'same' thing) from the wall. Could, but I'd NOT recommend doing so. His motor nameplate says that at 115V it will pull 19.2 amps. That's a lot of amps on a 'standard' household outlet (and the wiring in the wall feeding that outlet). Not including start-up amperage surge, the really means that he'd have to wire up a DEDICATED circuit with a minimum 25 amp breaker just for use with the Unisaw. 25 amp breaker means that he then has to probably use 10-2 NM-B (or THHN), etc ) from the breaker to the outlet (12 gauge wiring typically is just 'rated' for use on a 20 amp circuit). Then he has to find a 120 (or 125V ) 25 amp plug and receptacle. I don't feel like looking that config up.

HIs motor nameplate says that when running on 230V, the saw motor will draw 9.6 amps. Much more reasonable amperage draw for typical house circuit wiring (outside of an electric stove, or electric water heater, or central AC, or 240V well pump, or a 240V welder ). Wire the saw (house wiring, the Unisaw switch, and the Unisaw motor) to run on 240V, he could then use a 20A 240V double-pole breaker to feed the circuit for the Unisaw. Wire the plug and outlet using some NEMA6-50 stuff (which is typically rated for use at up to 3 HP, so he's good on the motor HP rating versus the plug/outlet). At 20A, he -could- just use some 12-2 NM-B (or THHN, etc) in the wall from the breaker panel to the receptacle.

IMNSO, wire that Unisaw to run on 240V (or 250V ). Use a 3-wire (hot-hot-ground) NEMA6-50 plug and receptacle. Minimum 20 amp breaker. Go turn large boards into smaller boards and sawdust.

 

[FMB4]

That's the switch not the motor. Motor is marked 1.5 Hp.

Sorry, I missed that. Meanwhile, the OP's motor looks to be marked as 1/2 HP, rather than 1 and 1/2 HP.

 

[Innovate1]

Sorry, I missed that. Meanwhile, the OP's motor looks to be marked as 1/2 HP, rather than 1 and 1/2 HP.

It's hard to see in the lighting and does look like 1/2. The OP stated it was 1-1/2. I'm guessing the 1 may be lightly stamped so hard to see especially with the lighting and angle.

 

[FMB4]

It's hard to see in the lighting and does look like 1/2. The OP stated it was 1-1/2. I'm guessing the 1 may be lightly stamped so hard to see especially with the lighting and angle.

That could be Innovate. My eyes aren't what the used to be. The thing to do might be the old 'thin paper rubbed with a pencil' gig like vehicle dealerships did in ancient times.

 

[MoonRise]

19.2 amps @ 110V is in the ballpark for the full-load amps of a 1-1/2 HP motor.

19.2 amps @110V is a REALLY inefficient 1/2 HP motor.

acer said his motor is 1-1/2 HP. (I agree that the photo of the motor nameplate sure looks like it says 1/2 HP, but that just seems 'off' for a Unisaw motor).

acer, you could try contacting Marathon to see if you can get any info on your motor itself. ... Looks like Marathon is part of Regal-Rexnord. https://www.regalrexnord.com/brands/Marathon-Motors

 

[acer66]

tarmy, Nice Powermatic and nice mobile base.

acer,

You do NOT need a 4 wire configuration for the Unisaw. It is NOT using 120/240 at the same time, which is why/when a 4 wire configuration is needed/required (things like an electric clothes dryer use a 4 wire, because they have 240V for the heating elements and 120V for the motor and controls).

If you wire it for operation on 240V (or 250V ), it will use HOT-HOT-GROUND, three wires.

If you wire it for operation on 120V (125V ), it will use HOT-NEUTRAL-GROUND, again three wires. Different plug and receptacle than a 240V 3 wire configuration obviously (maybe not so obvious, I have heard/seen where someone rigged 240V to/through a NEMA5-15 ).

As to your question with the picture, yes I recognize those items. That's an egg carton and a screwdriver.

You also have a miter gauge. And looking back at your original picture more closely, I made a mistake when I said that you have a T-slot miter groove. The shadow/chip in the picture on the corner of the miter miter fooled me. You have a plain miter groove, which means that your saw is then OLDER than from 1960. And thus my further error about the possible motor HP. But your saw is labeled Delta/Rockwell and has a louvered dust door, so it should be no older than from 1946. So you saw looks like it was made sometime between 1946 and 1960.

The wooden 'plates' are shop-made zero clearance inserts. Your plywood one was used (by the previous owner) with a dado blade, hence the wide kerf.

The orange plastic thing is a blade guard with "splitter" and "anti-kickback pawls". I am not knowledgeable enough about 'old' Unisaws to say whether or not that blade guard is OEM or not. Sorry.

If you locate the Unisaw model number and serial number somewhere (should be a data plate on the saw with that info, although it might be 'gone' by now), a little Google-fu might help you get some more info about your saw.

The Delta Vintage Project - Part One: Serial Numbers - VintageMachinery.org Knowledge Base (Wiki)

wiki.vintagemachinery.org

You were right the table saw has t slot miter grooves but the gauge does not not.

I got a bit worried that my eyes played tricks on me so I looked again it is a 1&1/2HP motor.
The numbers just have a bit of space between them and I will check that link out.
I watched a guy on yt fixing them up and what he said it made it look like it is from the sixties.

 

[Norcal]

If it is a RI, Repulsion Induction, motor the OP may find it quite adequate, they have a very good reputation.

For information about dating a Delta/Rockwell machine check this out. http://wiki.vintagemachinery.org/DeltaSerialNumbers.ashx

 

[Norcal]

another double post.

 

[MoonRise]

acer,

With a T-slot miter groove, the oldest that the saw could be would be from 1961.

1-1/2 HP isn't bad. Your close-up of the motor data plate clearly shows 1-1/2.

 

[acer66]

If it is a RI, Repulsion Induction, motor the OP may find it quite adequate, they have a very good reputation.

For information about dating a Delta/Rockwell machine check this out. http://wiki.vintagemachinery.org/DeltaSerialNumbers.ashx

Should it say RI somewhere on the motor plate?

My serial number.


I did some digging following the link and I think based on this post it might be from the 70’s.
The black handles and the arresting knobs look like the ones on mine

Photo Index - Delta / Rockwell Mfg / Rockwell-Delta - 34-450 rockwell | VintageMachinery.org

 

[Terry D]

I don't think that is a RI motor. They are a beast. I have one on my 1953 Unisaw. They say repulsion Induction on the plate.

Check this thread out

show your Vintage and/or Repulsion Induction motors

Im really into these right now. I would like this to be a thread for people to post their Repulsion Induction motors or antique, rare or interesting motors that they have restored or use. We all have stashes of spare motors in our ratholes and we also have some real beauties powering our...

www.garagejournal.com

 

[Norcal]

I have 3 Unisaws, my user which is a 1973 model, it had a 2 HP 3Ø motor on it the controls were set up for 480V, was going to put a VFD on it but due to problems with the motor it was scrapped & put a 3 HP 1Ø motor on it, the OP's saw has a cast iron plinth so it's a earlier model, mine has a sheet metal plinth, the other two are 1978 models, w/ 3 HP 1Ø motors, one is too far gone to fix, so needs to be parted out. 1973 seems to be the last year for Rockwell Manufacturing, 1974 looks to be the first year for Rockwell International.

When I bought the 3HP motor, it was shipped from Wisconsin for around $330, that is not happening these days, talk about gone up in price. https://electricmotorwarehouse.com/...tric-motor-230v-leeson-electric-motor-120728/

 

[acer66]

Nice and thank you for the additional information and yes $300 for a 3HP would be a steal these days.

Let me know when the parting out starts I might need something.

I just ran the saw for the first time and as far as I can tell the old switch box at the saw is working fine so I am not sure why put in the second one.

Nothing is bypassed even the reset switch works in it.

Any ideas why that would have been done?

Secondary cut off maybe?

Thank you.

 

[Norcal]

Nice and thank you for the additional information and yes $300 for a 3HP would be a steal these days.

Let me know when the parting out starts I might need something.

I just ran the saw for the first time and as far as I can tell the old switch box at the saw is working fine so I am not sure why put in the second one.

Nothing is bypassed even the reset switch works in it.

Any ideas why that would have been done?

Secondary cut off maybe?

Thank you.

They may have wanted overload protection, if the mag starter does not have properly sized heaters that could have been their goofball way to get it.