You are correct, The panel is set up how it has been forever, besides the fact that I trust the operator, my wife was there when he opened the panel, and I have cameras in front where the main panel is, there’s no way he was in that panel without me knowing. The ground was pulled caused the damage to the conduit, and the one leg is likely damaged inside the conduit as well.
Taking bets on the cause of the problem…
- Thread starter Oggy
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You are correct, The panel is set up how it has been forever, besides the fact that I trust the operator, my wife was there when he opened the panel, and I have cameras in front where the main panel is, there’s no way he was in that panel without me knowing. The ground was pulled caused the damage to the conduit, and the one leg is likely damaged inside the conduit as well.
sparky 1971
Well-known member
I'm gonna take a guess and say that someone pulled a four conductor URD and the yellow striped wire was supposed to be the ground. How it got that screwed up, broken, stripped back inside the pipe is beyond me. What I do know from the picture is that you have no ground, and the panel isn't bonded. That ain't good. I don't see anything leaving the ground bar that would be headed to the ground rods that probably aren't there, nor do I see a bonding screw. An install previous to the 2008 NEC would have allowed a three wire feed and a bonded neutral at the sub. OP: Was this installed in 2016 or did you buy it as is in 2016? It really doesn't matter, you have a potentially dangerous situation on your hands that doesn't have anything to do with the low voltage problem that started this whole thread. There's no bushing either, but I really don't give a flying f about that.Unfortunately I’m not going to be able to pull this off at the moment, I’ll see what I can do later this weekend.
I can’t get to the wires themselves easily, so I’m probing the lug itself.
Line to line I’m getting 217 (low side is reading 99v right now)
90 volts is with mo load, I turned both breakers off.
Also, I get 90volts to the ground.
You did catch the extra cable in the panel though. I hadn’t seen or noticed that before, and it made me look a little harder at the garage panel:
I noticed that there are 4 circuits in the garage, and only bare wires on the ground bar.
I also noticed this guy hiding here:
Although he doesn’t provide any voltage to the ground or neutral, he does show voltage when crossed with the two hot legs.
Codyboy
Well-known member
So the yellow stripe neutral was used as the ground and the black ground was the designated neutral and taped white? Possible sure. Dumb, buy possible.
Maybe that the green tape on the yellow strip conductor we talked about earlier.
Without better pics of both panels... who knows?
Eta.
I see that op said it was like that already.
sparky 1971
Well-known member
You could be right about the excavator snagging the conduit and pulling it back, but if the ground broke off in the panel, where in the blue hell is the other end of it? There should be a chunk of black wire with a yellow stripe on it somewhere in there.
Agreed on the danger.
I think whatever caused the broken/pulled ground also messed up the leg somewhere causing the low voltage.
Personally I'd pull the wires, pulling a pull rope in as they come out. Assuming they come out OK he should be able to pull 4 new wires back in.
Thinking out loud though, where the excavator hit the conduit, is it buried deep enough now?
sparky 1971
Well-known member
Where is the rest of the broken wire? There should be something in the panel close to the broken off end. Unless it got pulled out of a lug, but the rest of the wires should have been pulled some at the same time, the cable is twisted together. Maybe someone took the time to untwist everything.
Pulled out of the lug instead of broke?
Idk, it's clearly not connected anymore and all the wires look like they got yanked
sparky 1971
Well-known member
I have too small of a screen to see that they all were pulled back, it gets blurry when I try to zoom in. Looks to me like the hots and neutrals go up and over like they should. You're probably right though and if everything was yanked the low voltage hot was probably buggered up by a bucket tooth. I'll be home later and will look at it on my trusty 24" desktop screen. I only need 1.5X cheaters for that.
EDIT: Now that I am looking at the photos on a real screen, I agree with everyone else. It's time to start over by digging it up where the excavator got it. The conduit might be repairable. Disconnect the wires from the breakers and lugs at both ends, cut the pipe and pull the wire back both ways, fix the pipe if possible, then pull in new wire. You might also be able to just cut out the damage piece of conduit and pull MHFC through both pieces, leaving it direct buried where there is no pipe.
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Codyboy
Well-known member
That bottom hole is where the yellow striped (ground) came from?
It is the only big hole where the screw seems to be backed out enough for a number 4 wire.
Makes since due to the rub on the right side of the conduit.
So if thats the ground (yellow stripe), ...losing a ground would not be a voltage issue.
Wire has to be damaged underground then.
99v, 90v 217 line to line.
Time to rip it out and pull in some new wire.
Attachments
nadogail
Well-known member
The Garage Door Opener at a rental was reported as not working, seems that the builder of the house put the receptacle that the GDO plugs into on a GFCI protected branch circuit.
Located and reset the GFCI.
Located and reset the GFCI.
Codyboy
Well-known member
Not to be rude , but we're you responding to a different thread? This thread is way beyond GFCIs and GDOs.
But thats cool, you found the issue and solved it.
And thats one reason I hate and will not put a GFCI on anything unless near a known water source.
I don’t think it broke, just pulled it from the lug.
Answering a few other things here real quick too…
The timestamp on the garage photos the county has is from 2004, so installed before 2008 when the code would have changed, but I still think it had the ground.
Photos from the excavator:
It took a wide berth around the house, and was further out than we had expected. (Don’t mind the mess, it was raining constantly up until then, and much after then…
The first photo is where he found the line, it didn’t look like it was damaged, just bent a little.
I’ll let everyone know what the electrician did/recommends Monday.
Thank you everyone for the guidance on troubleshooting this!
I don’t think it broke, just pulled it from the lug.
Answering a few other things here real quick too…
The timestamp on the garage photos the county has is from 2004, so installed before 2008 when the code would have changed, but I still think it had the ground.
Photos from the excavator:
It took a wide berth around the house, and was further out than we had expected. (Don’t mind the mess, it was raining constantly up until then, and much after then…
The first photo is where he found the line, it didn’t look like it was damaged, just bent a little.
I’ll let everyone know what the electrician did/recommends Monday.
Thank you everyone for the guidance on troubleshooting this!
That looks way too shallow and it should have had warning tape above it
I do not disagree with either of those statements.
The village I live in was traditionally quite lax with the building requirements, and from time to time has gone for periods without a code enforcement officer. It wouldn’t surprise me if a permit was never pulled and the village never inspected because of the lack of ability to do so.
We had a revaluation in the town and the assessor had no idea there was a garage on my property (despite the aforementioned photos being in the county records). I had him add it to the property. Because my house was used as a comp at the time there was no change to my assessment, and we were too far along for him to change others because of the discrepancy.
All that said, I’d like to let sleeping dogs lie with the conduit if the electrician is comfortable doing so…
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
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wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
that conductor is yellow stripped so it would be the neutral in a quadruplex cable assembly for a 3 phase service entrance. its the wrong wire...
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
the voltage readings he got in the garage dont show us that. 121.8 and 90 dont add up to 240v.... if the neutral was broken it would have to add up to 240v between the 2 legs
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
correct however whoever installed this used the wrong wire. its URD quadruplex for 3 phase service entrance since the smaller conductor is yellow striped which is supposed to be the neutral. someone was using that as the ground wire.
the conductor taped white is normally used as a phase conductor in a 3 phase service
this whole thing is a mess. old cable needs to be pulled out and correct new cable needs to be pulled in along with replacing the lugs that someone smashed
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
agreed
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
none of those lugs on that ground bar are large enough for that yellow stripped conductor
Pretty sure we've gone back and forth about this a few times. I understand how triplex or quadruplex is used out where you are, but at least around here it's used all the time for standard residential feeds. I just watched another one go in last week where contractor and PoCo both appeared to use it in their work to get from pole to meter.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
for feeders or service entrance? for feeders, they are colored wrong (yellow stripe should be for neutral) but as long as they have the correct insulation rating- RHH/RHW (not all URD is dual rated), then they can be phase taped.
Codyboy
Well-known member
Further back OP said he was getting 217 L1 to L2.
Before that I commented its possible using OPs original readings there could be a neutral issue if he was getting 105, 105, 210 normally to the garage... but dismissed it figuring he would not be getting that low of voltage L-L
Which makes it very possible to have a neutral issue, with going down 15v to 90v and up 15v to 120v.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
that isnt an indication of faulty neutral either. 90+121.8 = 211.8v
a faulty neutral would be indicated by 90v and 150v readings on the ungrounded conductors (or some other combination adding up to 240v).... low voltage between both legs is indicative of an open or poor connection on a hot conductor.
but 210v is not nominal voltage either (should be 240v) and having equal voltage on each leg to neutral is not indicative of a faulty neutral either. thats indicative of a voltage sag... now if it was 85 and 125 that would be indicative of a faulty neutral along with an issue with supply voltage...
Codyboy
Well-known member
Hard to tell in the pics but I assumed that quadraplex is 2,2,2,4
With the 4 being that yellow striped conductor.
If it didn't go in the bottom big hole on the ground bar , where was it terminated?
As far as the wrong type wire maybe. But I used the same to feed a subpanel in my shop building.
2,2,2,4
I just chose one of the 2s for the ground and taped it green, used the yellow stripe for the neutral.
Codyboy
Well-known member
True it doesn't add up to OPs 217.
Depends on how /when the readings were taken also.
So 2.1 volts up or down from 217
Could have been 210 at the time he took his readings, as the main panel could have a 3v drop on each leg depending on what was running in the house .
Well of course 217 or 210 is not nominal voltage and I think most know that.
85 and 125? How is that different from 90 and 120 ?
Depending on load it could be dead even and still have a neutral issue.
Load up one leg and it could go from 120 to 0 and 120 to 240. (Using nominal voltage as reference)
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
so you used a larger wire for ground than neutral? this is backwards... EGCs are always smaller above #10 feeders...
sparky 1971
Well-known member
When I looked at it on my desktop, I decided it was 2-2-2-4 because, if for no other reason, I thought that seemed like a nice size. If so, the #4 would have fit a couple of holes on the ground bar but would have been tight.
It doesn't matter now, the whole thing is messed up. The first thing I'd do is try to tie an MHF to an end and try to pull the whole thing out and new in at the same time. When that doesn't work, have someone that doesn't look anything like me get a shovel out and try to find where the bucket snagged it, cut the pipe along with the wires and try to pull them out from both ends. Then maybe patch the bad spot and pull all new through or probably, since I know I'd be in a foul mood by that point and not care, leave the missing piece of pipe out, treat the two pieces of PVC as glorified sleeves, and pull new through.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
if i dont have voltage that adds up to around ~240v, im not starting out with the theory that i have a bad neutral. im gonna start with a bad hot leg or utility feed power sag.... once that is fixed and i have ~240v again, i will ascertain if there is a bad neutral...
proper steps in troubleshooting something like this is crucial...
Codyboy
Well-known member
Yes I did.
It's fine if the neutral is a size or even 2 sizes smaller with 120, 120, 240
It's a quadraplex cable.
Use the yellow for neutral and designated one of the black for a ground.
It's not complicated.
Or sure you could tape the yellow striped green and tape the black with white.
Why complicate it?
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
or just use the right wire such as MHF that is properly marked (white stripe and green stripe) and the insulation is rated for indoors. most URD isnt rated for indoor use so...
Who cares? Not the electrons.
klassenl
Well-known member
Define wrong.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
wrong color code, wrong insulation type (if not dual rated RHH/RHW)
The electrician came Monday, they installed the electrical for the pump, and determined the problem is with the one leg (and the ground).
It’s tough to see in the photo, but the conduit is pretty well pinched.
Solution is going to be to pull the wire, cut the conduit and replace what’s damaged. Likely everything from there to the garage panel, as the excavator probably pulled the conduit apart somewhere in there. From there he’s going to pull new wire from panel to panel.
It’s tough to see in the photo, but the conduit is pretty well pinched.
Solution is going to be to pull the wire, cut the conduit and replace what’s damaged. Likely everything from there to the garage panel, as the excavator probably pulled the conduit apart somewhere in there. From there he’s going to pull new wire from panel to panel.
I had almost the exact same situation. The contractor replacing my sidewalk, “found” the feed to my detached garage. 3 conductors of #2 alum that was laid just under previous sidewalk. No conduit. No marker. Not even direct burial cable. Now, I have to replace about 100 ft. and do it right.
House and garage were built by previous owner who had a drug and alcohol problem. Don’t get me started about the cabinets he built.
House and garage were built by previous owner who had a drug and alcohol problem. Don’t get me started about the cabinets he built.
Chuckster in NJ
Well-known member
How deep was the conduit BEFORE he "hooked" it?……. From the picture it looks about 10-12” deep.
BTW! Did you call for a utility "mark out" prior to digging?
BTW! Did you call for a utility "mark out" prior to digging?
Even if he did, the utility isn't going to mark a private line between a house and a garage...
Chuckster in NJ
Well-known member
VERY TRUE! I did not read the entire thread to see it was a "private" line. However you should call for a utility "mark out" every time you dig…….. It’s the law in most states.
I know many excavators who dig without dig numbers and they cry like a baby when they get a hefty fine after the nosey neighbor calls the local “811 line" and complains about the lack of no flags and they are concerned about the risk of the back how hitting a gas line.
Line was only about 12 inches before the excavator hit it. Code (now) I was told is 18.
The funny thing about 811, who was called, is that the excavator operator is one of the guys who would have marked the sewer, if the main were in the area. They don’t mark laterals for sewer which was in the area, he found that as well…
As stated on the electrical, they wouldn’t have marked anything beyond the service line to the meter.