Tale of two Craftsman Vises....

[ed4banger]

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[ed4banger]

bump

 

[SweetD]

Can't help you with an answer, but really nice examples. I have a Reed-made Craftsman 5187 myself, prized possession. Think it's circa '43-'47, which your comment above seems to confirm. It's in awesome mechanical shape, just needs a good overhaul cosmetically. It's my current #1 user on my main bench.

Do you do your own restorations? I've probably missed a bunch of your threads on the subject knowing me...

 

[fullthrottle24]

Just curious, what are the dates on your two vises in question?

 

[drivesitfar]

I just saw your thread and i'm guessing maybe Rock Island still sold vises on their own as well as to SEARS?

since i don't see the usual Craftsman guys on your thread yet maybe post this in the CRAFTSMAN LONG C thread and it should be near the top cause I just made a post on it commenting on a nice REEDSMAN vise.

Rock Island made AWESOME vises, but their marketing and catalogs sure were not at the top saying so cause very little information to be found.

good luck

AND NICE COLLECTION (REEEELY NICE)

 

[Hoorn]

Can't help you with an answer, but really nice examples. I have a Reed-made Craftsman 5187 myself, prized possession. Think it's circa '43-'47, which your comment above seems to confirm. It's in awesome mechanical shape, just needs a good overhaul cosmetically. It's my current #1 user on my main bench.

Do you do your own restorations? I've probably missed a bunch of your threads on the subject knowing me...

Unless it's been wire wheeled off, all of the Reed R series vises have a date stamped on the non logo side. Both the static and dynamic jaw. I own a 5183 and a 5181 Reed made Craftsman, or Reedsman as GJ is calling them now. On the 5183 the date was clear as day, on the 5181 I had to break out a magnifying glass and hold a flashlight to the side to read it.

 

[ed4banger]

Just curious, what are the dates on your two vises in question?

Shou

 

[ed4banger]

Unless it's been wire wheeled off, all of the Reed R series vises have a date stamped on the non logo side. Both the static and dynamic jaw. I own a 5183 and a 5181 Reed made Craftsman, or Reedsman as GJ is calling them now. On the 5183 the date was clear as day, on the 5181 I had to break out a magnifying glass and hold a flashlight to the side to read it.

Thes

 

[drivesitfar]

ED: I've never seen a Rock Island made CRAFTSMAN with a heritage badge on it. did it come that way or did you grab the badge from another tool and put it on that vise (I kinda doubt that you installed it cause there isn't any Craftsman name cast on it like normally is).

you've got a great Craftsman stable sir!!

 

[ed4banger]

ED: I've never seen a Rock Island made CRAFTSMAN with a heritage badge on it. did it come that way or did you grab the badge from another tool and put it on that vise (I kinda doubt that you installed it cause there isn't any Craftsman name cast on it like normally is).

you've got a great Craftsman stable sir!!

I was quite shocked when I initially saw one, a big 6" 5166. I doubted its authenticity, but now I have seen quite a few, I have 3 of these myself, this 5151, and also a 5162 and 5163. All of these date in the 1950s, at the same time the 519x vises were being advertised. Its why I argued that Sears continued to have a working relationship with RI as they were selling 519x vises, and why I believe it supports my thinking that 519x are made by RI.

 

[drivesitfar]

so you have 4 sizes with these Heritage badges on them? even though i've got several 6 inch Rock Island vises i'd love to find the 5166. have you ever seen a 5168 or was even advertised or offered?

I think you need to start your own thread so we can see your entire collection instead of in bits and pieces on various threads? or do you have one already that i've missed?

EDIT: i just took a closer look at your Heritage badge and it has 5151 stamped in it. very cool!!

 

[ed4banger]

so you have 4 sizes with these Heritage badges on them? even though i've got several 6 inch Rock Island vises i'd love to find the 5166. have you ever seen a 5168 or was even advertised or offered?

I think you need to start your own thread so we can see your entire collection instead of in bits and pieces on various threads? or do you have one already that i've missed?

EDIT: i just took a closer look at your Heritage badge and it has 5151 stamped in it. very cool!!

I have 3, the 5166 belongs to another member here. The 5151, 5162 and 5166 each had the model number stamped on the heritage badge. The 5163 had a regular heritage badge, and an additional model number badge. I have never seen any of these larger than the 6". I've been thinking about starting a thread. Here is a "before" and "after" pic of the 5163 badging.

 

[drivesitfar]

like you I also love the old Craftsman vises pre Columbian and imported versions so if you start a thread I will surely follow along. AND if you want a few pictures of mine too I might have to start spiffing a few of mine up cause they look a bit out of place next to yours.

I know you've seen (or maybe own) a 5198 cause several members have them now, but have you actually seen a 5188 (Reedsman) or just a catalog page

 

[ed4banger]

like you I also love the old Craftsman vises pre Columbian and imported versions so if you start a thread I will surely follow along. AND if you want a few pictures of mine too I might have to start spiffing a few of mine up cause they look a bit out of place next to yours.

I know you've seen (or maybe own) a 5198 cause several members have them now, but have you actually seen a 5188 (Reedsman) or just a catalog page

I do not have a 5198, it would complete my 519x series. I have seen several 5188 vises, and missed them all, it would complete the entire Reed series for me.....that 5162 is in nice shape from those pics....

 

[drivesitfar]

well I wish you the best on your search and landing one of those rare vises and in the meantime maybe we'll find more information on Rock Island.

I for one am looking forward to a thread with all your vises and maybe a ton of before and after pics with how you make these look better than they left the factory.

have a great day!!

 

[fullthrottle24]

I believe that Reed and Rock Island Craftsman vises were being sold at same time as well. Long C Reeds, heritage badge Reeds, meatball spindle, flat nose spindle. Rock Island changes only appear to be the lettering, curved, upright and heritage badge. That is, until they intoduced the 519x series. It would be interesting to see your date stamps for all and the evolution of those changes. As far as advertising goes, I simply think they showed the newer models, but continued selling and possibly manufacturing the older versions. I also believe the wartime period played a significant role in what was available and who was able to supply Sears.

 

[Hoorn]

These not made by Reed, made by Rock Island. I have pretty much all the Reedsmans. Few of them actually had dates on them.

Ed, I know yours are Rock Island, I was responding to SweetD's question regarding his Reedsman and how to date.

 

[Fierljeppen]

I believe that Reed and Rock Island Craftsman vises were being sold at same time as well. Long C Reeds, heritage badge Reeds, meatball spindle, flat nose spindle. Rock Island changes only appear to be the lettering, curved, upright and heritage badge. That is, until they intoduced the 519x series. It would be interesting to see your date stamps for all and the evolution of those changes. As far as advertising goes, I simply think they showed the newer models, but continued selling and possibly manufacturing the older versions. I also believe the wartime period played a significant role in what was available and who was able to supply Sears.

My thoughts exactly. Rock Island Mfg. (Birtman Electric), was heavily involved in the WWII effort, so for the first time in many decades, RIMCO wouldn't be available to supply Sears with any machinists vises at that time. This is when Reed Mfg. picked up the slack and supplied Sears with their vises, (1943-1948).

While the Rock Island Mfg. Craftsman vises were the same as the military version, the "Craftsman and model" castings would have been removed before production. This would be why the badges had to be installed later, to replace the missing "Craftsman model" castings.

As the ad below indicates, there was a surplus of Rock Island machinists vises post WWII. The fact that they would be available as a Craftsmans machinist vise offers strong evidence of the relationship between Rock Island Mfg. and the Craftsman 519X vises as well. ed4banger is starting to sway me to calling that particular "vise puzzle" and moving on.

This is just a plausible theory, based on real evidence...nothing more, nothing less.

 

[ed4banger]

My thoughts exactly. Rock Island Mfg. (Birtman Electric), was heavily involved in the WWII effort, so for the first time in many decades, RIMCO wouldn't be available to supply Sears with any machinists vises at that time. This is when Reed Mfg. picked up the slack and supplied Sears with their vises, (1943-1948).

While the Rock Island Mfg. Craftsman vises were the same as the military version, the "Craftsman and model" castings would have been removed before production. This would be why the badges had to be installed later, to replace the missing "Craftsman model" castings.

As the ad below indicates, there was a surplus of Rock Island machinists vises post WWII. The fact that they would be available as a Craftsmans machinist vise offers strong evidence of the relationship between Rock Island Mfg. and the Craftsman 519X vises as well. ed4banger is starting to sway me to calling that particular "vise puzzle" and moving on.

This is just a plausible theory, based on real evidence...nothing more, nothing less.

What you say makes some sense, that these may have been war surplus vises, but what about the slide dates from the 50s? Could the slide dates be other than manufacture dates? Perhaps a released for sale date, similar to Wilton warranty dates on their slides?

 

[Fierljeppen]

What you say makes some sense, that these may have been war surplus vises, but what about the slide dates from the 50s? Could the slide dates be other than manufacture dates? Perhaps a released for sale date, similar to Wilton warranty dates on their slides?

The vise castings were more than likely manufactured and stored in mass, while the machining of the vise was usually done just before it was assembled, packaged and shipped. I suspect Rock Island Mfg. had a surplus of machinist vise castings and not necessarily assembled vises, ready for sale.

I believe the date stamp would have been a reflection of when the machining of the slide took place, which would make the 1950's date stamp plausible. I can't think of any other obvious scenarios at this time.

Thanks for providing an interesting weekend vise puzzle.

 

[ed4banger]

The vise castings were more than likely manufactured and stored in mass, while the machining of the vise was usually done just before it was assembled, packaged and shipped. I suspect Rock Island Mfg. had a surplus of machinist vise castings and not necessarily assembled vises, ready for sale.

I believe the date stamp would have been a reflection of when the machining of the slide took place, which would make the 1950's date stamp plausible. I can't think of any other obvious scenarios at this time.

Thanks for providing an interesting weekend vise puzzle.

Thankyou, I've been trying to understand the presence of these heritage badged RI vises for a while now. This all seems to make some sense to me now.

 

[drivesitfar]

ED & FIER: i'm not sure we solved all the worlds issues today, but solving a few of the old vise ones sure is fun. thanks for sharing all your wisdom.

i'm not sure we can for certain say about how the date stamps are on Rock Island vises or why some with different castings have later dates, but i'm sure they were having issues after WWII with Wilton gaining warp speed and Columbian importing vises in huge volumes.

also didn't Parker buy Prentiss (100 year old vise making company) around WWII then Parker also was gone by 1960?

I seem to recall my old Rock Island 577 had a date stamp under the static jaw of 1935, but it's been a while since I turned it over and just going off my old memory. anybody else have Rock Island vises with date stamp not on top of slide and under static?

ALL: also in case some of you want to also post or read about the WHO MADE THE CRAFTSMAN 5198 thread here's the link: https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=8969658#post8969658

 

[SweetD]

Unless it's been wire wheeled off, all of the Reed R series vises have a date stamped on the non logo side. Both the static and dynamic jaw. I own a 5183 and a 5181 Reed made Craftsman, or Reedsman as GJ is calling them now. On the 5183 the date was clear as day, on the 5181 I had to break out a magnifying glass and hold a flashlight to the side to read it.

I've looked hard and can't seem to find any date stamps.

 

[Maui]

My Craftsman 5163 was built in the mid 1930s I believe.

 

[ed4banger]

My Craftsman 5163 was built in the mid 1930s I believe.

Those appeared in the Sears catalogs from 1939 until sometime during the war, last one I see in a catalog was 1942. Sears was selling Samson branded RI vises mid 30s. Same basic vise but no removable jaws. You have a nice vise by the way.

 

[LNKMK8]

Hi Ed;

For your 1939-1942 vises.. have you consider having a replacement decal made for the front jaw, like shown in the catalog? I've got one of these older Craftsman that I have redone and though the decal might be a nice finishing touch.

 

[ed4banger]

Hi Ed;

For your 1939-1942 vises.. have you consider having a replacement decal made for the front jaw, like shown in the catalog? I've got one of these older Craftsman that I have redone and though the decal might be a nice finishing touch.

Yes, had some made to the correct size. He has been selling them on ebay since I asked for them.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Craftsman-Tools-Vise-vintage-style-decal-1-3-8-Set-2-early-blue-gold-yellow/154211571519?hash=item23e7b9d73f:g:NwAAAOSwd7RfvZXq

 

[drivesitfar]

ED: its the small details you do that make your restorations a bit more over the top. speaking of that if you might want to post this old LONG C label ebay link over on the LONG C thread if you haven't already I bet they'd love it.

also I was just there and saw a picture of your 5187 and I have to say if you want to post another picture of it and more of your craftsman vise family here i'm sure others would enjoy it as much as I did. WOW THAT is some restoration!!

 

[Maui]

Those appeared in the Sears catalogs from 1939 until sometime during the war, last one I see in a catalog was 1942. Sears was selling Samson branded RI vises mid 30s. Same basic vise but no removable jaws. You have a nice vise by the way.

If you expand the second photo in my post you can see the number 634 stamped on the lower right side of the dynamic jaw tower. I believe this is a date stamp indicating that my vise was manufactured in June of 1934.

 

[ed4banger]

If you expand the second photo in my post you can see the number 634 stamped on the lower right side of the dynamic jaw tower. I believe this is a date stamp indicating that my vise was manufactured in June of 1934.

Interesting. Never seen a RI date stamp in that location, always on the top of the slide.

 

[drivesitfar]

ED: when I move my old Rock Island 577 i'll see if I can find the 1935 date stamped on it which i think was under the dynamic or it might have been on the static.

it was years ago that I recall seeing it so it might have been another vise cause I too only recall Rock Islands being stamped on top of their slides. That said I don't recall seeing any dates prior to WWII on top of the slides.

 

[ed4banger]

ED: when I move my old Rock Island 577 i'll see if I can find the 1935 date stamped on it which i think was under the dynamic or it might have been on the static.

it was years ago that I recall seeing it so it might have been another vise cause I too only recall Rock Islands being stamped on top of their slides. That said I don't recall seeing any dates prior to WWII on top of the slides.

I've been looking into this today a bit, I do not believe the "634" on Maui's vise is a date stamp, for a couple reasons. First, its too nice, it looks cast. In looking at my own Cman RI vises, I found some with numbers cast in this fashion and location, but they were all part Nos. corresponding to Regular RI vise models, like "592". In this case, as best I can tell "634" does not correspond to a RI vise model. Second, in reviewing what catalogs I have (David Maher collection) The RI 51xx vises didn't make an appearance until '39. The only other RI offerings Cman branded were the 52xx series around '32-'33.

To answer your question re date stamping, I do have Samson vises as well as Cman 52xx vises date stamped mid 30s .

 

[drivesitfar]

I’m only assuming this is a 1/35 (Jan 1935) date stamp under the dynamic jaw of my Rock Island 577. Thoughts?

 

[Maui]

I've been looking into this today a bit, I do not believe the "634" on Maui's vise is a date stamp, for a couple reasons. First, its too nice, it looks cast. In looking at my own Cman RI vises, I found some with numbers cast in this fashion and location, but they were all part Nos. corresponding to Regular RI vise models, like "592". In this case, as best I can tell "634" does not correspond to a RI vise model. Second, in reviewing what catalogs I have (David Maher collection) The RI 51xx vises didn't make an appearance until '39. The only other RI offerings Cman branded were the 52xx series around '32-'33.

To answer your question re date stamping, I do have Samson vises as well as Cman 52xx vises date stamped mid 30s .

I was always under the impression that my Craftsman vise was manufactured by Reed. And Reed did date stamp their vises in this location in this way.

Maui

 

[ed4banger]

I was always under the impression that my Craftsman vise was manufactured by Reed. And Reed did date stamp their vises in this location in this way.

Maui

That is a Rock Island made vise.

 

[Maui]

Ed, how did you reach that conclusion? There is no date stamp on the slide like there is on my Rock Island vises.

 

[drivesitfar]

Maui: i'll let Ed mention his reasons when he has time, but he's correct your vise WAS MADE BY ROCK ISLAND vise company.

the style/look, the jaws, the hub and maybe a few other things. also turn if over if it's not mounted and you might even see a Rock Island part # on the bottom of your swivel jaw.

I love all the old Craftsmans made by REED and ROCK ISLAND and i'm pretty sure ED might have most of them so i'll defer to him as knowing quite a bit more than I do.

I think I just made a post on the ROCK ISLAND history thread refer readers of that thread to this one so if you can find it you might want to take a gander at it and compare your jaw style to those posted there too.

 

[ed4banger]

Ed, how did you reach that conclusion? There is no date stamp on the slide like there is on my Rock Island vises.

The lack of a date stamp on the slide is not uncommon, often worn away. I have seen quite a few with indiscernible indicia.

 

[Maui]

Ed, there is no indication of a date stamp ever being present on the slide on my Craftsman 5163. But I can clearly see the date stamps on the slides of my Rock Island vises. Maybe my 5163 was made by Rock Island and not by Reed. I don’t know. I’m not looking or a debate about who made them with anyone here, I’m just asking if you could provide any evidence you’ve gathered that supports the opinion that they were made by Rock Island. So far I haven’t seen any that I can recall.

Maui

 

[ed4banger]

5163 is a Rock Island, basically equivalent to the RI 594. Reed only made the Craftsman 5179-5188 bench vises.