Tall stair building advice needed

[biggziff]

I'm ready to build the stairs for my new shop. I'm going to need approximately 21' long stringers for my 13' ceiling to gain access to the second floor storage area. I'm assuming I can special order lumber for this, but wondered if there are other choices such as engineered materials or maybe something metal?

thanks

 

[GMCGarage]

I'm ready to build the stairs for my new shop. I'm going to need approximately 21' long stringers for my 13' ceiling to gain access to the second floor storage area. I'm assuming I can special order lumber for this, but wondered if there are other choices such as engineered materials or maybe something metal?

thanks

Sounds like a LVL is in order, or a steel fabricated staircase. Menards you can get a 22' LVL for around 100$. A 2x12 is not going to get it.

 

[Ironcrow]

If it needs to meet code, it might need a landing halfway up. Check that first before continuing with long lumber.

 

[biggziff]

If it needs to meet code, it might need a landing halfway up. Check that first before continuing with long lumber.

Thanks, but no code to be satisfied here. The code guy reviewed and accepted my plans before we ever broke ground. Just trying to get a few more ideas on how to skin this cat.

 

[Wolfman6]

You have two choices if you want wood, LVL or laminate 2x12's with staggered joints.

 

[coljar]

Thanks, but no code to be satisfied here. The code guy reviewed and accepted my plans before we ever broke ground. Just trying to get a few more ideas on how to skin this cat.

I know you have a plan, but just giving you something to think about especially if kids are involved. I've fallen down stairs longer than what you are suggesting and I was lucky considering I had a fire hose in my hand at the time. Landings make it a little safer.

 

[biggziff]

I know you have a plan, but just giving you something to think about especially if kids are involved. I've fallen down stairs longer than what you are suggesting and I was lucky considering I had a fire hose in my hand at the time. Landings make it a little safer.

Understood. I'm actually leaning towards a simple hoist powered elevator/platform at this point. Solves a few issues I had with the stairs idea.

Thanks for the help. Always good to have extra sets of eyes looking at the problem.

 

[383]

We stock 24' #1 SYP 2x12's at our lumber yard, but delivery from VA to NY might get a little steep......

 

[matt_i]

Im in the LVL crowd. I used 11-7/8" LVLs for my shop stairs which required 14' pieces for a 10'4" ceiling. 2x10 treads with a custom oak nose (just ripped the pine -3/4" and applied a 1x2 white oak, then routed a roundover. I laid out the treads and routed a 1/4" deep pocket in each stringer for each tread using a template. Lots of dust

You do not want the stairs to be springy. I would even consider jumping up to the next size of LVL which I think is in the 13-14" range.

 

[Bob P1]

Probably depends on what is going up the stairs and how frequently. If you are just going up there once in a while with light stuff wood would probably cut it. If you are going up there all the time with "who know's what" go steel. I would definitely use a landing, maybe a change in direction half way up. If tight space could also incorporate shelving in with it.

 

[Jon_E]

I bought 16' long rough -sawn 2x12 pine for my stairs, 3 stringers, but I have a landing and a 90° turn. For that long a stairs, I would definitely use LVL stringers. You can get them any length you want, I think my lumberyard actually carries up to 60' long with special order.

 

[ard]

+5 (?) on LVL.

Much safer, less bounce. As above, cut to lenght up to 60ft. (They come in 60ft long units- the yard cuts each to order)

 

[ford33]

A 13 foot climb or descent down a stair is intimidating for many people. A landing would be safer and make the effort easier.

Just for fun, here is a link to the CNN building in Atlanta escalator. It is nearly 200 feet long climbing 8 stories in one long stretch. I have been on it and it is unnerving to stand on it and look down from the top floors and see nothing but stairs behind you.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/55869657@N00/6736200753

 

[kbs2244]

8 stories with out landings?
How did that get approved?

 

[lakeroadster]

You could use standard lumber if you build an intermediate support down to the floor.

 

[biggziff]

Probably depends on what is going up the stairs and how frequently. If you are just going up there once in a while with light stuff wood would probably cut it. If you are going up there all the time with "who know's what" go steel. I would definitely use a landing, maybe a change in direction half way up. If tight space could also incorporate shelving in with it.

Landings and changing directions are not happening. If I can't build a hinged staircase that can be pulled up against the ceiling, I'll use a platform elevator. I'm not giving up all that floor space.

 

[Citation]

Can you add a set of legs /struts to the center? They can still fold but having some central support would make things a lot easier structurally speaking. I think you could even make the center leg thing fold when the steps are up. You also might put the leg thing towards one end so you don't have to fold it. Assuming you have the clearance, placing it say 6'from the bottom of the steps would reduce your long span from 22' to 16'. At the same time that structure may have be low enough in profile so that you don't have to worry about it when the stairs are up. Another option would be staggered step stairs so you can have a steeper ride over run

 

[mobetta]

exterior stair?

 

[Bob P1]

Ok, I would use an old extension ladder. Beef it up where it would hinge to the ceiling and call it done.

 

[Ironcrow]

Landings and changing directions are not happening. If I can't build a hinged staircase that can be pulled up against the ceiling, I'll use a platform elevator. I'm not giving up all that floor space.

OK, I hear you. If this staircase is going to hoist up against the ceiling for storage, might as well use two sets of hoist cables instead of one set and have shorter stringers with a hinge in the middle?....Or if you use 4 cables anyway, might as well make it an elevator?

 

[aka Larry]

8 stories with out landings?
How did that get approved?

8 stories? The OP said he needed a 21' stringer, which using a 12" tread with 7" rise is approx 10'-6". Not 'quite' 8 stories.

 

[rburke65]

Ya, I have read the thread again I don't see 8 stories.....that's ..?..80'!

 

[kbs2244]

It was in the number 13 flickr attachment

CNN building in Atlanta

 

[tcianci]

I'd be very interested to know if the LVL manufacturers even recommend the product for stair stringers. Constructing a stair carriage requires that the stringer material have good fastener holding capability in the end grain and LVL material certainly does not. Also I've not seen bearing specifications for LVL products in any orientation but normal to the length of the member

 

[ishiboo]

I'd be very interested to know if the LVL manufacturers even recommend the product for stair stringers. Constructing a stair carriage requires that the stringer material have good fastener holding capability in the end grain and LVL material certainly does not. Also I've not seen bearing specifications for LVL products in any orientation but normal to the length of the member

LVL stringers are quite common with longer spans... no better way of building a stringer IMO.

https://lpcorp.com/resources/produc...d-lvl-stair-stringer-technical-guide-english/

 

[ard]

FWIW:

Posted in a different thread. Didnt want to weaken the LVL, so used stair tread cleats on the inside of the stringers

 

[matt_i]

I'd be very interested to know if the LVL manufacturers even recommend the product for stair stringers. Constructing a stair carriage requires that the stringer material have good fastener holding capability in the end grain and LVL material certainly does not. Also I've not seen bearing specifications for LVL products in any orientation but normal to the length of the member

I routed pockets in the stringers with a template & router bushing...



Polyurethane construction adhesive, predrilled pilot holes for GRK-RSS screws, two per tread, 5/16" x 4-1/8" long. Which hold like nobodys business in the end grain of SPF. All of this is time consuming and produces a lot of sawdust! but I am very satisfied with the result.



I have considered threading some 1/4" dia or 3/8" dia tie-rods that would keep this under side-to-side compression forevermore, but haven't gone there yet

 

[tcianci]

Nice examples of using LVL material for stringers. My question was directed more to the actual approved use of LVL material for stair stringers. As with any engineered material, the application must be approved by an engineer or in common applications, the manufacturer can specify the members required, fastening method, fasteners and bearing requirements and this specification will usually suffice for purposes of permitting.

While I have no doubt that the 2 illustrations above would result in one heck of a set of stairs, is it a method that's approved by the manufacturer? If I have some time tonight, I'll poke around and see if there's any info on that.

 

[ard]

Nice examples of using LVL material for stringers. My question was directed more to the actual approved use of LVL material for stair stringers. As with any engineered material, the application must be approved by an engineer or in common applications, the manufacturer can specify the members required, fastening method, fasteners and bearing requirements and this specification will usually suffice for purposes of permitting.

While I have no doubt that the 2 illustrations above would result in one heck of a set of stairs, is it a method that's approved by the manufacturer? If I have some time tonight, I'll poke around and see if there's any info on that.

Is a 2x12 #2 Doug Fir board 'approved' by the mfg to be used on a stairs?

https://lpcorp.com/resources/product-literature/code-reports-certificates/apa-pr-l280-lsl-and-lvl/

Using this, I expect the LVLs I used will far exceed the load capacity of a 2x12, and would be fine for my use. I didnt run the calcs, I would need to if it was a permitted application. I also expect that the engineering calcs would be based on material characteristics and capacities- and NOT on 'is it rated by the mfg for that'.

Full disclosure: my stairs are NOT code compliant. rise/run is way off. But, better than a ladder

 

[matt_i]

If you look at the Fb rating for each one you can easily see a LVL is far superior as a beam in bending. Which is what a stair stringer is, in simplicity.

Even if you subtract the plane of the material which I routed out as being unable to support any tensile stress, its still better than a 2x12.

I can't quote technical figures but if you've ever nailed up an LVL header by hand you'll wear yourself out because its so damn hard as opposed to sinking 16d nails in SPF.

 

[tcianci]

You guys are missing the point. If you use engineered lumber in a permitted application, it's required to have either an engineers stamp or the application specifications provided by the manufacturer which in most cases will be accepted by the AHJ in lieu of an engineers stamp. While I agree that a 2 x 12 is not as strong as a LVL, there are widely accepted engineering specifications for dimensional lumber according to species. And while I have never had an inspector ask me for the engineering specifications for a 2 x 12 stringer, I can't get a permit for a plan that uses engineered structural members without the stamp or the calcs.

 

[James-W]

Have you considered putting in an elevator rather than a stairs? An elevator won't take up anywhere near as much room and it will make it a whole lot easier to move heavy and/or bulky objects up and down.

 

[matt_i]

You guys are missing the point. If you use engineered lumber in a permitted application, it's required to have either an engineers stamp or the application specifications provided by the manufacturer which in most cases will be accepted by the AHJ in lieu of an engineers stamp. While I agree that a 2 x 12 is not as strong as a LVL, there are widely accepted engineering specifications for dimensional lumber according to species. And while I have never had an inspector ask me for the engineering specifications for a 2 x 12 stringer, I can't get a permit for a plan that uses engineered structural members without the stamp or the calcs.

I think you answered your own question, you need the P.E. stamp...or, why detail the choice of LVL on the submitted drawings? Simply draw it to scale with proper rise & run to meet code & leave choice of construction materials up to the builder...none of the inspectors in my area seemed to give a whit about anything other than a 5 minute look around. They never opened the drawings once.

In any case I feel like its pretty low-level-loading, what's a staircase load, 1000 lbs for trying to transport a refrigerator or a gun safe? Distributed between two members on an angle. If you resolve it into an equivalent horizontal load 500/sqrt(2)...350-ish lbs of normal equivalent...

As opposed to a header where a 25 psf roof load over 25 feet x 2 feet wide per truss / 2 supports is around 600 lbs *per truss*. I'm just throwing out rough numbers here for gross comparison.

 

[lakeroadster]

In any case I feel like its pretty low-level-loading, what's a staircase load, 1000 lbs for trying to transport a refrigerator or a gun safe?

Well said.

It's easy to overthink things.. easier today than it's ever been due to information overload that's fingertips away on every subject.

 

[GMCGarage]

I think we lost the OP and now are commenting on something else. Seems the OP is moving towards a elevator platform.

 

[JRC3]

Flip regular stringers. Sure they are steep, but t's better than a ladder and has a smaller footprint than regular stairs.

 

[lakeroadster]

FWIW: The steep stairways may well violate local building codes.

• Want to sell the property it's an inspection issue
  
• Somebody gets hurt and it's a liability issue

Be careful out there.

__________________________________________


The maximum riser height shall be 7-3/4 inches (196 mm). The riser shall be measured vertically between leading edges of the adjacent treads. The greatest riser height within any flight of stairs shall not exceed the smallest by more than 3/8 inch (9.5 mm).

http://www.co.stevens.wa.us/landservices/documents/STAIRWAYSECTION.pdf

__________________________________________

Residential
The OSHA guideline for residential stairs sets the minimum vertical rise for each step at 4 inches and the maximum at 8 1/4 inches. An international building code, however, puts the maximum at 7 3/4 inches. Regulations and codes provide exceptions for replacement stairs where space does not permit meeting these requirements.

http://work.chron.com/osha-stair-riser-requirements-1403.html

 

[nolimits76]

I've thought about those platforms/hoists as well. All the ones I've looked at are not designed for human transportation. Probably because they don't have fail safes built in so in the rare event it fails, you go splat. Doesn't mean I haven't seen people use them in that manner, and some guys have built their own as well.

Either way....back on topic....here is a link for a solution as you asked. These are good up to 15'. They have some others that may or may not work with the 13' heights.

http://www.rainbowatticstair.com/all-products/f-series/

 

[nolimits76]

8 stories? The OP said he needed a 21' stringer, which using a 12" tread with 7" rise is approx 10'-6". Not 'quite' 8 stories.

Ya, I have read the thread again I don't see 8 stories.....that's ..?..80'!

It was in the number 13 flickr attachment

CNN building in Atlanta

As noted, it was the CNN building and it was an ESCALATOR. My guess is a traditional set of stairs had landings, etc.

I haven't been in the CNN facility but I once stayed in the Luxor in Vegas. For those unaware, it's a huge pyramid. A traditional elevator doesn't work, so while you are inside an elevator car, it slides along at a funky angle similar to the CNN building -- maybe even more steep.

I am curious what happens if the escalator has a mechanical failure, lol. It's a long hike as I've done 9-10 stories before when elevators at an old work place from many moons ago were shut down due to flooding issues.

 

[PugetDude]

Flip regular stringers. Sure they are steep, but t's better than a ladder and has a smaller footprint than regular stairs.

Had to do this once on a little lake cabin I built. The building inspector had a **** hemorrhage until I changed the room designation on the plans from "loft" to "storage".